Nikita Kucherov is the clear favorite for the Art Ross Trophy

[MacMacandBarbie]

Who is scoring if there’s no Kucherov? We are a one line team 5v5 and our power play largely goes through him. Look at Point’s stats the year Kucherov was out, he can’t carry a line by himself. There’s no chance we’re fighting for a playoff spot without him.

His salary would be replaced by somebody, it wouldn’t just handicap the team. It would go to some young gun with upside or an aging vet, who would be putting up about the same amount as the top scoring leader on the caps.

The system would be a lot different too without kucherov. They would likely employ a tighter defensive system. Which could be more effective tbh. Who knows. The main point is that Hedman is the most important piece on that team by far.

Hedman is a +11 and somehow Kucherov is only a +2 on the season despite not playing a second of penalty kill and spending tons of time with Hedman at even strength.

McDavid spends less time on the PP than Kucherov, actually kills penalties when needed, plays with similar defensive talent, and is a +31.

You can say +\- doesn’t tell the whole story, but when you dig into the stats deeper, it doesn’t look good for Kucherov. The guy leads the league in giveaways, by a lot. His defense is a liability.

 

[keglu]

Mack has 2 more GP than Kuch. he'll beat him in the race when they both have 82. my money is on Kucherov.

Kucherov missed one game

 

[DownIsTheNewUp]

His salary would be replaced by somebody, it wouldn’t just handicap the team. It would go to some young gun with upside or an aging vet, who would be putting up about the same amount as the top scoring leader on the caps.

The system would be a lot different too without kucherov. They would likely employ a tighter defensive system. Which could be more effective tbh. Who knows. The main point is that Hedman is the most important piece on that team by far.

Hedman is a +11 and somehow Kucherov is only a +2 on the season despite not playing a second of penalty kill and spending tons of time with Hedman at even strength.

McDavid spends less time on the PP than Kucherov, actually kills penalties when needed, plays with similar defensive talent, and is a +31.

It’s already been pointed out to you that all of Kucherov’s line mates are way in the minus. It’s incredible that he’s a plus.

And what does PP and PK time have to do with plus/minus?

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

It’s already been pointed out to you that all of Kucherov’s line mates are way in the minus. It’s incredible that he’s a plus.

And what does PP and PK time have to do with plus/minus?

How do you not understand that significant PP time is an advantage to your +/- and significant PK time is a disadvantage?

Duclair plays a fraction of what Kucherov does on the PP. Hedman logs heavy PK time. Kucherov gets offensive zone preferential start treatment, and logs no PK time.

 

[Five Alarm Fire]

His salary would be replaced by somebody, it wouldn’t just handicap the team. It would go to some young gun with upside or an aging vet, who would be putting up about the same amount as the top scoring leader on the caps.

The system would be a lot different too without kucherov. They would likely employ a tighter defensive system. Which could be more effective tbh. Who knows. The main point is that Hedman is the most important piece on that team by far.

Hedman is a +11 and somehow Kucherov is only a +2 on the season despite not playing a second of penalty kill and spending tons of time with Hedman at even strength.

McDavid spends less time on the PP than Kucherov, actually kills penalties when needed, plays with similar defensive talent, and is a +31.

You can say +\- doesn’t tell the whole story, but when you dig into the stats deeper, it doesn’t look good for Kucherov. The guy leads the league in giveaways, by a lot. His defense is a liability.

Okay got it, so it’s purely a hypothetical scenario you made up in your head.

 

[ricky0034]

How do you not understand that significant PP time is an advantage to your +/- and significant PK time is a disadvantage?

Duclair plays a fraction of what Kucherov does on the PP. Hedman logs heavy PK time. Kucherov gets offensive zone preferential start treatment, and logs no PK time.

do you know what +/- even is?

 

[Rschmitz]

Hasn’t Cernak been healthy pretty much all year? Same with De Haan who has been a staple for the bottom pairing. The injuries are bad but the overall d core is still better than what the oilers are working with IMO.

De Haan has been one awful, one of the worst defenders I've ever seen

I still firmly believe that they would be fighting for a playoff spot but be closer to where the caps are without Kucherov.

Lightning fans should know that it’s Hedman that makes that team go. You take him off and leave Kucherov and that team is in the lottery.

This is not to take anything from the season Kucherov is having. But if you take McDavid off the oilers they would be a lottery contender.

Alright, you clearly aren't a Lightning fan and aren't watching the games.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

De Haan has been one awful, one of the worst defenders I've ever seen


Alright, you clearly aren't a Lightning fan and aren't watching the games.

Awh, we don’t agree on everything so you must be a better fan than me. Great logic.

 

[Rschmitz]

Awh, we don’t agree on everything so you must be a better fan than me. Great logic.

I'm not saying your a worse fan, I'm saying you aren't a fan. You have to watch the games to be a fan, and it's clear you aren't so why should anyone value your opinion?

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

do you know what +/- even is?

Do you? Let’s make it easy for you.

Special teams TOI reduces available even strength minutes. Spending more time on the penalty kill leads to more tired legs. Spending more time on the PP usually leads to goals and little energy is expended.

Moreso, it’s an indicator of how they are used. Despite Hedman being leaned on for his defense, he’s a +11. Kucherov is only asked to create offense, and doesn’t play defense. He gives the puck away more than any player in the league.

If Kucherov was more important to the bolts than Hedman it would show up more on the stats.

I'm not saying you’re a worse fan, I'm saying you aren't a fan. You have to watch the games to be a fan, and it's clear you aren't so why should anyone value your opinion?

Most knowledgeable hockey fans seem to identify Hedman as the best player on the bolts. This opinion isn’t the minority. Kucherov is having a fantastic offensive season and is amazing in his own right. But he’s not better than Hedman and doesn’t impact winning at the same level.

 

[DownIsTheNewUp]

Do you? Let’s make it easy for you.

Special teams TOI reduces available even strength minutes. Spending more time on the penalty kill leads to more tired legs. Spending more time on the PP usually leads to goals and little energy is expended.

Moreso, it’s an indicator of how they are used. Despite Hedman being leaned on for his defense, he’s a +11. Kucherov is only asked to create offense, and doesn’t play defense. He gives the puck away more than any player in the league.

If Kucherov was more important to the bolts than Hedman it would show up more on the stats.


Most knowledgeable hockey fans seem to identify Hedman as the best player on the bolts. This opinion isn’t the minority. Kucherov is having a fantastic offensive season and is amazing in his own right. But he’s not better than Hedman and doesn’t impact winning at the same level.

Your plus/minus argument is absurd.

Not a single person watching Tampa’s games this year would call Hedman better than Kucherov. You’re clearly not watching their games and basing the whole argument on plus/minus.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Your plus/minus argument is absurd.

Not a single person watching Tampa’s games this year would call Hedman better than Kucherov. You’re clearly not watching their games and basing the whole argument on plus/minus.

I don’t think bolts fans can be objective about their team on here. If you feel that way, then fine. We don’t have to agree.

y’all are crying about your defensive core having injuries and nobody can recognize them. At least half the guys you signed to play defense for your team this year have played in just about all the games.

I think it’s been hard to watch the bolts defense go from one of the greatest ever assembled to a middle of the road team. But the the hyperbole is insane. Welcome to what the oilers have had the entire McDavid era.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Hasn’t Cernak been healthy pretty much all year? Same with De Haan who has been a staple for the bottom pairing. The injuries are bad but the overall d core is still better than what the oilers are working with IMO.

De Haan is not a good defenseman

 

[Rschmitz]

Most knowledgeable hockey fans seem to identify Hedman as the best player on the bolts. This opinion isn’t the minority. Kucherov is having a fantastic offensive season and is amazing in his own right. But he’s not better than Hedman and doesn’t impact winning at the same level.

Explain. Where are these knowledgeable hockey fans who believe this?

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

De Haan is not a good defenseman

But he is the defenseman you guys signed to be apart of the defense this year. The guy I quoted claimed everyone outside of Hedman were fill in players due to injuries.

If bolts fans want to complain about the quality of their defenseman, fine. But you will have to get in line as it’s far from the worst in the league.

 

[Five Alarm Fire]

I don’t think bolts fans can be objective about their team on here. If you feel that way, then fine. We don’t have to agree.

y’all are crying about your defensive core having injuries and nobody can recognize them. At least half the guys you signed to play defense for your team this year have played in just about all the games.

I think it’s been hard to watch the bolts defense go from one of the greatest ever assembled to a middle of the road team. But the the hyperbole is insane. Welcome to what the oilers have had the entire McDavid era.

Imagine having the greatest player in the world and still being this insecure about the contributions of another player to his team winning.

Glad you’re the beacon of objectivity here, when all you’ve offered are leaky +/- arguments and a preposterous scenario where the Lightning change their play style without Kucherov to win games.

112 points speaks for itself. His next highest teammate has 39 points less than him. Our bottom 6 has put together no scoring support. He’s our entire offense and he’s out-scoring our defensive and goaltending woes. The team is 25th in GA/game and 31st in SV%, that isn’t middle of the road.

 

[x Tame Impala]

But he is the defenseman you guys signed to be apart of the defense this year. The guy I quoted claimed everyone outside of Hedman were fill in players due to injuries.

If bolts fans want to complain about the quality of their defenseman, fine. But you will have to get in line as it’s far from the worst in the league.

Yeah because they're up against the cap and don't have a lot of options. That's what happens after a mini dynasty when you have to pay all your players and they get older + less effective. De Haan is a bargin-bin, bottom-pairing, occaisionally reliable defenseman...at least that's what he was in Chicago. I can't imagine his play has gotten much better 2 years later playing 16 minutes a night on a depleted tampa roster.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Explain. Where are these knowledgeable hockey fans who believe this?

The ones that get paid for their opinion. Andreychuk is always gushing about Hedman and has said numerous times what I have said in this thread on air. Brian Engblom went on a rant when Hedman hit 1000 games about how he is the most important player to the lightning. It’s a common sentiment.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Glad you’re the beacon of objectivity here, when all you’ve offered are leaky +/- arguments and a preposterous scenario where the Lightning change their play style without Kucherov to win games.

I have actually offered other stats such as TOI insights, and most importantly how Kucherov leads the league in giving puck up to the other team in my argument. It is fine if you don't agree, but don't sit there like you have offered a single shred of evidence to support your points.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Yeah because they're up against the cap and don't have a lot of options. That's what happens after a mini dynasty when you have to pay all your players and they get older + less effective. De Haan is a bargin-bin, bottom-pairing, occaisionally reliable defenseman...at least that's what he was in Chicago. I can't imagine his play has gotten much better 2 years later playing 16 minutes a night on a depleted tampa roster.

I get it, many teams are up against the cap though. Tampa is fielding a competitive defense lead by one of the greatest to ever do it. Its a bit thin, and certainly middle of the road, but it is a long shot away from being the worst in the league. Most importantly, its on par with what McDavid has always had in Edmonton which was what I was mostly trying to illustrate.

 

[Stelio Kontos]

How do you not understand that significant PP time is an advantage to your +/- and significant PK time is a disadvantage?

Duclair plays a fraction of what Kucherov does on the PP. Hedman logs heavy PK time. Kucherov gets offensive zone preferential start treatment, and logs no PK time.

Time to stop posting. You don’t understand how plus minus works and your in here arguing about who’s more valuable to their team in a Art Ross thread.. lol

 

[Five Alarm Fire]

I have actually offered other stats such as TOI insights, and most importantly how Kucherov leads the league in giving puck up to the other team in my argument. It is fine if you don't agree, but don't sit there like you have offered a single shred of evidence to support your points.

Lol, Kucherov gives away the puck 1 more time than McDavid every 5 games. Big deal.

 

[Rschmitz]

The ones that get paid for their opinion. Andreychuk is always gushing about Hedman and has said numerous times what I have said in this thread on air. Brian Engblom went on a rant when Hedman hit 1000 games about how he is the most important player to the lightning. It’s a common sentiment.

So you tuned into Hedmans 1000th game while announcers were busy hyping Hedmans importance to the team, and you took that as confirmation that he is the best player for the Lightning? Your research method is flawed, you are hearing what you want to hear. Hedman is important like Draisaitl is important, now imagine some idiot saying he's better than McDavid. Stop

 

[JFleegs]

The ones that get paid for their opinion. Andreychuk is always gushing about Hedman and has said numerous times what I have said in this thread on air. Brian Engblom went on a rant when Hedman hit 1000 games about how he is the most important player to the lightning. It’s a common sentiment.

Those two people have terrible takes lol hilarious that you use them as your argument.

 

[Coffey]

What's the new daily argument in this thread? Cause I ain't reading all those posts.