Confirmed with Link: Nick Robertson asks for trade (Update signs 1 year/875k deal with leafs)

[francis246]

Though guys like Robertson (and Sandin) were/are passed the elf stage. It's tricky to balance the icetime needs for development of these mid-stage rfa guys like Robertson/Sandin. Leafs have prioritized winning - which makes sense given where the team as a whole is - but I think it does lead to some guys development getting less emphasized. A guy like Knies didn't have to deal with this because he was able to step in immediately

Menzinger you hit the nail on the head. Which is why I believe Jonas Segal when he was saying this really isn't a line up issue. I think this is a kid who wants to get better but really doesn't see a clear developmental path in this organization. I don't think it's any different than Dominic Toninato or Dakota Joshua looking at the organization and saying, I'm not going to become the player I think I can become here. Or when Zach Hyman did that to Florida or Rutger McGoarty doing that to Winnipeg.

Everything right now is about the core 4. Lets be honest, development has been secondary. As a young RFA/ELC player for the leafs, either you can contribute now or not. That is an extremely tough situation for young players who need rope to make mistakes and also need to be given the opportunity to be put in beneficial situations. Outside of Knies who was given a top line role, no one else has been developed and integrated into the team well enough.

 

[Mess]

Though guys like Robertson (and Sandin) were/are passed the elf stage. It's tricky to balance the icetime needs for development of these mid-stage rfa guys like Robertson/Sandin. Leafs have prioritized winning - which makes sense given where the team as a whole is - but I think it does lead to some guys development getting less emphasized. A guy like Knies didn't have to deal with this because he was able to step in immediately

Size matters !!!

Matthew Knies (Height 6.03 -- Weight 217 ) is fully grown full sized NHL hockey player, so he can play regularly at the NHL level.

Nik Robertson (Height 5.09 -- Weight 178) is a small undersized player that has gets hurt often when playing a Man's game at the NHL level.

So if you're undersized you had better be pretty good at many things otherwise you're an easy coaches choice for the odd man out, because there is only so much room on a NHL team with winning aspirations for small players on the roster, and they do that as much for the players own safety. Robertson is fortunate that he has an NHL release and shot otherwise he would be long forgotten by now already.

When the going gets rough & tough like the playoffs the big physical players get going, and the small ones get to sitting out and often best used as trade bait to bring in better suited players for your NHL team to succeed. Nikky Bobby was suppose to step right from the OHL into the Columbus Blue Jackets play-in round series back in 2020.. Now 4 full seasons later he still has not established himself as an NHL regular and wants a trade out of Toronto.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I recall the issue being that he keeps getting yoyo’d around to the AHL because of cap issues that management voluntarily creates for themselves.

He's played a grand total of 11 AHL games since 2021-2022, and his biggest barriers have been injuries and waiver eligibility, not "cap issues".

 

[DougGilmour93]

Robertson for Torpochenko

Robertson for Marchenko

Robertson for Voronkov

 

[notbias]

Size matters !!!

Matthew Knies (Height 6.03 -- Weight 217 ) is fully grown full sized NHL hockey player, so he can play regularly at the NHL level.

Nik Robertson (Height 5.09 -- Weight 178) is a small undersized player that has gets hurt often when playing a Man's game at the NHL level.

So if you're undersized you had better be pretty good at many things otherwise you're an easy coaches choice for the odd man out, because there is only so much room on a NHL team with winning aspirations for small players on the roster, and they do that as much for the players own safety. Robertson is fortunate that he has an NHL release and shot otherwise he would be long forgotten by now already.

When the going gets rough & tough like the playoffs the big physical players get going, and the small ones get to sitting out and often best used as trade bait to bring in better suited players for your NHL team to succeed. Nikky Bobby was suppose to step right from the OHL into the Columbus Blue Jackets play-in round series back in 2020.. Now 4 full seasons later he still has not established himself as an NHL regular and wants a trade out of Toronto.

Knies has been hurt multiple times...

It is how they complement the team and Robertson is not good defensively and is better as a trigger man whereas Knies can do other things that complement his linemates better and is better defensively.

It is just Knies > Robertson.

You focus way too much on size and it almost never makes sense.

You may have a heart attack when you find out the size of the Conn Smythe winner in 2023.

 

[All Mod Cons]

Have we given him away yet, so he is not sad.

 

[aingefan]

Menzinger you hit the nail on the head. Which is why I believe Jonas Segal when he was saying this really isn't a line up issue. I think this is a kid who wants to get better but really doesn't see a clear developmental path in this organization. I don't think it's any different than Dominic Toninato or Dakota Joshua looking at the organization and saying, I'm not going to become the player I think I can become here. Or when Zach Hyman did that to Florida or Rutger McGoarty doing that to Winnipeg.

Everything right now is about the core 4. Lets be honest, development has been secondary. As a young RFA/ELC player for the leafs, either you can contribute now or not. That is an extremely tough situation for young players who need rope to make mistakes and also need to be given the opportunity to be put in beneficial situations. Outside of Knies who was given a top line role, no one else has been developed and integrated into the team well enough.

It’s been a sin that the team hasn’t attempted to achieve both objectives.

Having so much elite talent at the top *should* enable concurrent objectives over 82 games, not prevent it.

Covid/flat cap probably contributed to this, but mostly it was organizational thinking.

 

[Sypher04]

Menzinger you hit the nail on the head. Which is why I believe Jonas Segal when he was saying this really isn't a line up issue. I think this is a kid who wants to get better but really doesn't see a clear developmental path in this organization. I don't think it's any different than Dominic Toninato or Dakota Joshua looking at the organization and saying, I'm not going to become the player I think I can become here. Or when Zach Hyman did that to Florida or Rutger McGoarty doing that to Winnipeg.

Everything right now is about the core 4. Lets be honest, development has been secondary. As a young RFA/ELC player for the leafs, either you can contribute now or not. That is an extremely tough situation for young players who need rope to make mistakes and also need to be given the opportunity to be put in beneficial situations. Outside of Knies who was given a top line role, no one else has been developed and integrated into the team well enough.

I don’t disagree with this post but by this same logic basically every young player should demand to be traded to a bottom feeder team instead of trying to win a roster spot and grow on a good one.

 

[Gary Nylund]

It’s been a sin that the team hasn’t attempted to achieve both objectives.

Having so much elite talent at the top *should* enable concurrent objectives over 82 games, not prevent it.

Covid/flat cap probably contributed to this, but mostly it was organizational thinking.

IMO this is especially true when the team is more or less a lock to make the playoffs which has been the case for the Leafs for many years now. Even if making player development more of a priority during the regular season costs us a few points in the standings, who cares?

 

[seanlinden]

Knies has been hurt multiple times...

It is how they complement the team and Robertson is not good defensively and is better as a trigger man whereas Knies can do other things that complement his linemates better and is better defensively.

It is just Knies > Robertson.

You focus way too much on size and it almost never makes sense.

You may have a heart attack when you find out the size of the Conn Smythe winner in 2023.

Here's the thing... size does matter... because of how size fits in with the Big4.

 

[notbias]

Here's the thing... size does matter... because of how size fits in with the Big4.

Play style and skill > size.

I don't know how this can be debated.

Marchand would do better than Knies beside Matthews.

Knies is just a better player than Robertson and his skillset is more useful.

 

[seanlinden]

Menzinger you hit the nail on the head. Which is why I believe Jonas Segal when he was saying this really isn't a line up issue. I think this is a kid who wants to get better but really doesn't see a clear developmental path in this organization. I don't think it's any different than Dominic Toninato or Dakota Joshua looking at the organization and saying, I'm not going to become the player I think I can become here. Or when Zach Hyman did that to Florida or Rutger McGoarty doing that to Winnipeg.

Everything right now is about the core 4. Lets be honest, development has been secondary. As a young RFA/ELC player for the leafs, either you can contribute now or not. That is an extremely tough situation for young players who need rope to make mistakes and also need to be given the opportunity to be put in beneficial situations. Outside of Knies who was given a top line role, no one else has been developed and integrated into the team well enough.

Bingo.

It's also not just about "the core 4", but how poorly Robertson integrates with that "core 4".

One of the reasons Knies was considered so untouchable, and got a really really long look on the first line, is because the type of player he is and projects to be should be a perfect compliment to an Austin Matthews & Mitch Marner line.

Marner is a guy who excels in open ice. Matthews is effective in both the dirty areas and open ice, but as the centre, shouldn't be your primary forechecker. Matthew Knies, a perfect primary forechecker.... just like Zach Hyman was.

The problem for Robertson -- is that he needs to occupy the same "spot" on the ice as Mitch Marner or William Nylander.

If the Leafs didn't have one of those guys, then yes, Robertson might be a decent fit, but that's just not the reality here.

I get the appeal of not wanting to be "pushed around" by your own prospects... but surely, somebody in Leafs management needs to realize that the current structure of this team prevents them from developing a Nick Robertson properly... just like Dubas sort of did (albeit a few years too late) with having both Rasmus Sandin & Timothy Liljegren in the lineup.

Go out there and get Drew O'Connor, or Alexei Toropchencko, or Dmitry Voronkov -- somebody that can be used as an interchangable piece on the left side with Knies & McMann.

Or; see if you can package a David Kampf & Nick Roberton together, and hopefully get a guy better equipped to be a 3rd line C, letting Minten, Holberg, and Dewar figure out the #4 position.

With Cowan & Minten both knocking on the door, another year of development from Matthew Knies, how well Domi showed that he can play with Matthews, there is some definite upside in this forward group if you can get a guy to make a productive 3rd line.

Imagine if you could get a guy like Morgan Frost out of Philly...

Knies-Matthews-Domi
McMann-Tavares-Marner
Jarnrkok-Frost-Nylander
Holmberg-Minten-Cowan
Dewar & Reaves as extras.

Play style and skill > size.

I don't know how this can be debated.

Marchand would do better than Knies beside Matthews.

Knies is just a better player than Robertson and his skillset is more useful.

Play style is extremely important -- as that's how you get a line which is better than it's parts.

However, in the size vs skill debate, it's all about need & fit.

Matthews, Marner, Tavares, Nylander, assuming they're playing on 2 lines, are much better off with a Bobby McMann and Matthew Knies, than they are with Nick Robertson, simply because McMann and Knies do things that allow the Big 4 to use their high end skills. Robertson doesn't.

 

[notbias]

Play style is extremely important -- as that's how you get a line which is better than it's parts.

However, in the size vs skill debate, it's all about need & fit.

Matthews, Marner, Tavares, Nylander, assuming they're playing on 2 lines, are much better off with a Bobby McMann and Matthew Knies, than they are with Nick Robertson, simply because McMann and Knies do things that allow the Big 4 to use their high end skills. Robertson doesn't.

So we agree, nothing to do with size...

They'd be better off with a Marchand type of player than either of those two and he is much smaller than both.

 

[Maple Leaf]

I have low expectations for this character but don't want to give him away for free

 

[seanlinden]

So we agree, nothing to do with size...

They'd be better off with a Marchand type of player than either of those two and he is much smaller than both.

No, we definitely don't agree. Size, quite often, dictates play style. Sure, there are exceptions to the rule like Brad Marchand, but he's an exception, not the norm.

There's also the concept of efficiency.

Sure, take Brad Marchand over Matthew Knies... but that's a very rudimentary and shortsighted "argument".

Brad Marchand has a $6.125m cap hit, and even though Knies is on an ELC, and I don't think Boston would trade him straight up for Knies.

The sacrifices that you'd have to make (both in clearing the incremental $5.25m in cap space) and the assets you'd have to give up to swap Knies for Marchand, would make the team worse overall.

What we're talking about is comparing 2 guys that are likely to make similar dollar amounts, both under Leaf-control... one is big and a perfect fit for the balance of our top 6, one is small and a horrible fit in our top 6.

 

[notbias]

No, we definitely don't agree. Size, quite often, dictates play style. Sure, there are exceptions to the rule like Brad Marchand, but he's an exception, not the norm.

There's also the concept of efficiency.

Sure, take Brad Marchand over Matthew Knies... but that's a very rudimentary and shortsighted "argument".

Brad Marchand has a $6.125m cap hit, and even though Knies is on an ELC, and I don't think Boston would trade him straight up for Knies.

The sacrifices that you'd have to make (both in clearing the incremental $5.25m in cap space) and the assets you'd have to give up to swap Knies for Marchand, would make the team worse overall.

What we're talking about is comparing 2 guys that are likely to make similar dollar amounts, both under Leaf-control... one is big and a perfect fit for the balance of our top 6, one is small and a horrible fit in our top 6.

Reaves is bigger than Knies, put him up on the 1st line then.

It is 100% skill/play style.

The type of player who will excel beside Matthews and Marner/Domi is a good forechecker, good defensively, has good passing and will go to the net.

Robertson is none of those things, nor is Reaves, it is why it is Knies' skills that put him on the top line.

Jarnkrok and Holmberg have had some success with Matthews and neither are big, and it is because they are better at those things than Robertson.

 

[nuck]

Robertson for Torpochenko

Robertson for Marchenko

Robertson for Voronkov

Robertson for Borgen since Seattle thinks they need to upgrade on him

 

[seanlinden]

Reaves is bigger than Knies, put him up on the 1st line then.

It is 100% skill/play style.

The type of player who will excel beside Matthews and Marner/Domi is a good forechecker, good defensively, has good passing and will go to the net.

Robertson is none of those things, nor is Reaves, it is why it is Knies' skills that put him on the top line.

Jarnkrok and Holmberg have had some success with Matthews and neither are big, and it is because they are better at those things than Robertson.

I feel like you're being a little intentionally obtuse.

Size isn't everything, but it certainly plays a big role in the style that the vast majority of players take on, and in turn, what they are actually capable of.

While forechecking, defensive ability, net drive and decent passing are obviously important, so is a cycle-ability.

Robertson's lack of size substantially limits him on the forecheck, ability to drive / do anything at the net, and cylce the puck.

 

[Menzinger]

Size matters !!!

Matthew Knies (Height 6.03 -- Weight 217 ) is fully grown full sized NHL hockey player, so he can play regularly at the NHL level.

Nik Robertson (Height 5.09 -- Weight 178) is a small undersized player that has gets hurt often when playing a Man's game at the NHL level.

So if you're undersized you had better be pretty good at many things otherwise you're an easy coaches choice for the odd man out, because there is only so much room on a NHL team with winning aspirations for small players on the roster, and they do that as much for the players own safety. Robertson is fortunate that he has an NHL release and shot otherwise he would be long forgotten by now already.

When the going gets rough & tough like the playoffs the big physical players get going, and the small ones get to sitting out and often best used as trade bait to bring in better suited players for your NHL team to succeed. Nikky Bobby was suppose to step right from the OHL into the Columbus Blue Jackets play-in round series back in 2020.. Now 4 full seasons later he still has not established himself as an NHL regular and wants a trade out of Toronto.

I'd agree size certainly helped Knies get in when he did,.but he was also more rounded in terms of two way play.

Spending the extra year in college helped him focus on the non offensive elements of his game. And also an overlooked element too is college hockey is a mens league with most teams core players being in their early 20s, which helped him make that quicker adjustment.

 

[Mess]

I'd agree size certainly helped Knies get in when he did,.but he was also more rounded in terms of two way play.

Spending the extra year in college helped him focus on the non offensive elements of his game. And also an overlooked element too is college hockey is a mens league with most teams core players being in their early 20s, which helped him make that quicker adjustment.

Matthew Knies was also a beast in the playoffs fitting right in with the physical play and even thriving in that environment. He recorded 2-1-3 points and 23 hits and 9 blocked shots playing +15 TOI/g

Nic Robertson posted 0-0-0 points and 6 hits and 1 blocked shot while averaging 9:48 TOI/g.

Robertson was essentially a complete passenger and essentially irrelevant to the Leafs cause under the hard hitting and tight checking playoff hockey, where his size limiting his opportunities. Since graduating from OHL after 2020 season he has dressed for 10 games total over 4 playoff years recording 1 single goal and point, while dealing with numerous injury likely do to his smaller frame.

Berube loves North-South big heavy hockey with dump and chase aggressive forechecking.. Can't see how he fits into the Leafs future and its likely better Leafs honour his wishes and deal him away for a player that would be better suited for the Leafs new system. Matthews Knies on the other hand is going to thrive under Berube and quickly become a coaches favourite as he finishes his checks and wins physical puck battles using his size and strength to his advantage.

 

[Stephen]

Though guys like Robertson (and Sandin) were/are passed the elf stage. It's tricky to balance the icetime needs for development of these mid-stage rfa guys like Robertson/Sandin. Leafs have prioritized winning - which makes sense given where the team as a whole is - but I think it does lead to some guys development getting less emphasized. A guy like Knies didn't have to deal with this because he was able to step in immediately

Robertson has been on his ELC the whole time. It's just been sliding year after year because of his service time/injuries.

 

[Mess]

Nic Robertson and Timothy Liljegren to Winnipeg for Rutger McGroarty.

 

[Stephen]

Menzinger you hit the nail on the head. Which is why I believe Jonas Segal when he was saying this really isn't a line up issue. I think this is a kid who wants to get better but really doesn't see a clear developmental path in this organization. I don't think it's any different than Dominic Toninato or Dakota Joshua looking at the organization and saying, I'm not going to become the player I think I can become here. Or when Zach Hyman did that to Florida or Rutger McGoarty doing that to Winnipeg.

Everything right now is about the core 4. Lets be honest, development has been secondary. As a young RFA/ELC player for the leafs, either you can contribute now or not. That is an extremely tough situation for young players who need rope to make mistakes and also need to be given the opportunity to be put in beneficial situations. Outside of Knies who was given a top line role, no one else has been developed and integrated into the team well enough.

Knies, McMann and Robertson scored 15, 15 and 14 goals respectively in 2023-24. One is aged 20, one is aged 27 and one is aged 21. With a new coach coming in to shake things up, Knies and McMann are both poised to progress in their careers and provide secondary offense, while Robertson is looking for the exit door.

I freely criticize the Maple Leafs and how they are run as an organization, but this isn't a Maple Leaf issue or really an opportunity issue. Not when management is cheering for Cowan to take a job. This is clearly a Nick Robertson entitlement issue that his first instinct isn't to come to camp, put his boots on and wrestle a job for himself.

 

[Stephen]

Size matters !!!

Matthew Knies (Height 6.03 -- Weight 217 ) is fully grown full sized NHL hockey player, so he can play regularly at the NHL level.

Nik Robertson (Height 5.09 -- Weight 178) is a small undersized player that has gets hurt often when playing a Man's game at the NHL level.

So if you're undersized you had better be pretty good at many things otherwise you're an easy coaches choice for the odd man out, because there is only so much room on a NHL team with winning aspirations for small players on the roster, and they do that as much for the players own safety. Robertson is fortunate that he has an NHL release and shot otherwise he would be long forgotten by now already.

When the going gets rough & tough like the playoffs the big physical players get going, and the small ones get to sitting out and often best used as trade bait to bring in better suited players for your NHL team to succeed. Nikky Bobby was suppose to step right from the OHL into the Columbus Blue Jackets play-in round series back in 2020.. Now 4 full seasons later he still has not established himself as an NHL regular and wants a trade out of Toronto.

My assessment is Robertson is held back by questionable hockey sense. That is his instincts over 200 feet of ice is somewhat poor, he doesn't really know how to get himself open for good looks (compare his vision, creativity and positional sense with a Cole Caufield) and his idea of working hard is this buzzy, running around chasing the puck carrier, frenetic doing nothing. You can tell he wants it real bad, I don't think he has the formula for what he needs to do to get open and basically use his shot, blast indiscriminately.

 

[IrishInOntario]

Nic Robertson and Timothy Liljegren to Winnipeg for Rutger McGroarty.

I'd do this in a heartbeat, but I doubt that it's enough of what Winnipeg is looking for to get the deal done. I think they'd rather use McGroaty combined with other assets to add a big piece through trade, given that they can't attract big time free agents. I doubt they're interested in giving up the best piece in a deal for him. They want to be competitive now and use him to add.