Niagara Icedogs 2024-25 Season Thread, Part III

[knowescape]

Not really. The STH sales were already completed before he had a chance to mess things up and piss people off.

I still contend, The Burke scandal had an impact. You are saying otherwise. Correct?

Correct.

I'm saying if Bill and Denise had hired a new HC & GM and stayed on as owners, the attendance would not have plummeted. I think the vast majority of STH were happy to see Billy and Joey in the rear-view mirror. Seeing DD's track record in Brantford made some STH pause before renewing and the resultant fiasco that followed didn't lure any back.

 

[dirty12]

I’d be happily surprised if they won’t drop to 4-5 I still have them finishing 6-7


I don’t worry about what the fans think from here on out I’d worry about what DD think from here on out especially if they fall in the standings which I’m expecting

The IceDogs kept their roster and picks as is at the deadline while six teams added a little to significantly. I’m expecting the team drops in the standings as well. I think 5-6 .

 

[knowescape]

IceDogs attendance seems to increase late in the season. I would not be surprised if higher attendance rates coincide with poor Buffalo Bills seasons.



We will see, I doubt the IceDogs finish 15th in league attendance.

Ok, @dirty12 ... where do you see them at the end of the regular season?

 

[Dogs Enthusiast]

I disagree. Some people were very upset and were withholding making a purchase of tickets because of the Burke scandal.

 

[knowescape]

I disagree. Some people were very upset and were withholding making a purchase of tickets because of the Burke scandal.

And I disagree as well.

If for example the Doug Hamilton contingent had been the successful bidder, I think Niagara would have held onto 4th. Similarly, if Bill & Denise had hired a quality HC & GM, the team would still be in 4th. It was DD that was the difference maker - his track record and his arrogance taking over the franchise. It would have been tough to compete with the human element that Bill & Denise Burke brought to the community, but it could have been done, just not by DD.

 

[IceDogs452]

I partially agree with you.

When a player defects there is usually a mittful of picks to replace them. It is a good strategy when you are in a go-for-it situation and short-term picks are a better option than a 16 year old player. Marty Williamson employed this tactic successfully.

In the case of Sam Dickinson, Niagara was NOT in a position to go-for-it and desperately needed skilled players for their rebuild. Instead, they had a hole in their line-up and the picks we got for Dickinson were squandered like a trash-panda on meth by DD.

The part that was missing then and still is today, is the relationship aspect between team, agent, player and family. The team has to cultivate that dynamic well in advance of the draft and have a strong measure of comfort that when we make the call it will get answered. Scouts play a huge role in this as does the GM and to an extend the HC as well. Identifying talent, is one aspect, but if the player doesn't feel the love - you can't convince them after the fact just because you called their name.

Agreed that the picks ended up being squandered but I’d still take all of those picks over Lucas karmiris who Sam14 said was the other option. Nothing against Karmiris but those picks (plus czata remember) have much more value than Karmiris. Czata now has more value than Karmiris alone.

 

[dogs777]

And I disagree as well.

If for example the Doug Hamilton contingent had been the successful bidder, I think Niagara would have held onto 4th. Similarly, if Bill & Denise had hired a quality HC & GM, the team would still be in 4th. It was DD that was the difference maker - his track record and his arrogance taking over the franchise. It would have been tough to compete with the human element that Bill & Denise Burke brought to the community, but it could have been done, just not by DD.

Although I don’t know if they’d be top 4-5 if Dougie and co took over I definitely don’t think they would’ve dropped out of the top half

 

[Dog Fan]

I partially agree with you.

When a player defects there is usually a mittful of picks to replace them. It is a good strategy when you are in a go-for-it situation and short-term picks are a better option than a 16 year old player. Marty Williamson employed this tactic successfully.

In the case of Sam Dickinson, Niagara was NOT in a position to go-for-it and desperately needed skilled players for their rebuild. Instead, they had a hole in their line-up and the picks we got for Dickinson were squandered like a trash-panda on meth by DD.

The part that was missing then and still is today, is the relationship aspect between team, agent, player and family. The team has to cultivate that dynamic well in advance of the draft and have a strong measure of comfort that when we make the call it will get answered. Scouts play a huge role in this as does the GM and to an extend the HC as well. Identifying talent, is one aspect, but if the player doesn't feel the love - you can't convince them after the fact just because you called their name.

Bingo! You may or May not like the Burke's as owners but they had players and their family's to many games and the players were announced over the sound system, were shown on the big screen and were appreciated by the fans. They were good at recruiting.

 

[dirty12]

Ok, @dirty12 ... where do you see them at the end of the regular season?

Idk, I stated that I doubt as low as 15th in league. Just for you, I will guess a bit lower total than last season if the bills win the divisional round and lower the further the bills go, but a bit higher if the bills lose.

 

[dogs777]

Bingo! You may or May not like the Burke's as owners but they had players and their family's to many games and the players were announced over the sound system, were shown on the big screen and were appreciated by the fans. They were good at recruiting.

Burkes were great owners (until the boys got GM and HC job more so Billy as HC) I even said on the other forum site many times I 1000% would’ve been fine with them still being around as owners if they could guarantee the boys wouldn’t be back after the suspensions

 

[knowescape]

Idk, I stated that I doubt as low as 15th in league. Just for you, I will guess a bit lower total than last season if the bills win the divisional round and lower the further the bills go, but a bit higher if the bills lose.

So you're saying no better than 10th?

 

[bigsportsfan]

You talk like DD inherited this beautiful franchise in a perfect position to succeed. He inherited a shitty team that had forfeited a pick already then Dickinson to London plus the scandals plus COVID having an impact on willingness for people to return.

The team DD inherited was the youngest team in the OHL the previous season and they still got 22 wins. In DD’s first season, he made 27 trades in an attempt to bypass the rebuild and ended up with a mess of a team that only won 12 games that season. Had DD kept the team he inherited together, they would have done better than the team that DD tried to assemble.

 

[dirty12]

So you're saying no better than 10th?

No. For a third time, I state I that I doubt as low as 15th.

 

[knowescape]

No. For a third time, I state I that I doubt as low as 15th.

Sigh... You said slightly worse than last year's attendance which was 9th. You even committed to it just for me...

 

[bigsportsfan]

Not really. The STH sales were already completed before he had a chance to mess things up and piss people off.

I still contend, The Burke scandal had an impact. You are saying otherwise. Correct?

It may have had a little impact but I doubt it was much. Burke sold the team right after the incident so why would fans refuse to buy tickets under the new owner. I think the Bullying Scandal under DD would have a bigger impact on ticket sales now.

 

[dirty12]

The team DD inherited was the youngest team in the OHL the previous season and the team still managed to get 22 wins. In DD’s first season, he made 27 trades in an attempt to bypass the rebuild and ended up with a mess of a team that only won 12 games that season. Had DD kept the team he inherited together, they would have done better than the team that DD tried to assemble.

The roster DD inherited included players from three of the worst consecutive drafts imaginable.
The 2019 class through six rounds consisted of Enright, Cato (cost 2-3s to make that pick), and Rosenzweig; a couple of on glue-types for sure. The 2020 draft was the best of the three. There were no drafted or NHL signed among them, but two managed to stick through OA seasons. The ‘21 draft started with a forfeited 1st and followed by Copeland and Costanzo as the first two selections of round 2; yikes.
No one would have really stood a chance. DeDobbelaer did attempt to make a go of it building around the ‘20 draft, but that did not work out at all.

 

[dirty12]

It may have had a little impact but I doubt it was much. Burke sold the team right after the incident so why would fans refuse to buy tickets under the new owner. I think the Bullying Scandal under DD would have a bigger impact on ticket sales now.

I would expect the forfeited 1st due to the scandal after two poor drafts had many would be STHs think the team would be awful for the foreseeable future. Add the first DD draft to that …rock bottom.

 

[dirty12]

Sigh... You said slightly worse than last year's attendance which was 9th. You even committed to it just for me...

Sigh …if you read the entire reply, you would have seen maybe a bit lower the further the bills go in the playoffs

 

[Sam14]

Dickinson was never coming to Niagara so not a DD fault, Reid chose NCAA and the possibility of playing in OHL came about after he was traded. So blame bad drafting if you want but the haul they got for Dickinson was better than drafting a worse player who would report.

Just for clarification: The Dickinson situation was a DD decision (choice). Acting GM John Walters had other options available to him. However, DD opted for the Hunter deal for picks, which was fine, except that within exactly 14 months (culminating with Brody Crane deal), Mark Hunter retrieved all of those picks (+1) back from Darren. DD managed to turn a potential good trade into an unmitigated disaster and really was the start of his downfall with this fan base.

The Hayden Reid situation was another draft fail, especially now in retrospect. First, DD used a high 3rd round pick on a redrafted 06 in an 07 draft. Reid is the highest ever re-drafted positional player in an OHL draft and he didn’t even show up. Bad. What make this worse? IceDogs could have drafted 07 Arrowsmith with that pick. Instead, DD lost that pick and now used a 3,3 and 6 to trade for him.

 

[IceDogFan]

It seems crazy that it almost feels like some people would rather see the team fail so they can continue to attack DD rather than support the team...

It's got nothing to do with wanting the team to fail. I think most would prefer to have stable ownership and a qualified GM. With him here we'll have neither. If this team being a complete disaster on the ice helps us get rid of his sorry ass quicker that's a small price to pay IMO.

It's hard not to root for the kids though!

 

[Dogs Enthusiast]

If this team being a complete disaster on the ice

You need to give up on this idea. This team is excellent and will be even better next year.

 

[Sam14]

Agreed that the picks ended up being squandered but I’d still take all of those picks over Lucas karmiris who Sam14 said was the other option. Nothing against Karmiris but those picks (plus czata remember) have much more value than Karmiris. Czata now has more value than Karmiris alone.

Kasmiris is who the previous head scout suggested they draft. Walters also had presented DD with a couple of options at #5. As you mentioned, fans in general were fine with the boat load of picks DD got in that Dickinson trade, but the fact that DD gave all those picks (plus) back to Mark Hunter (in only 14 months) was watching a trainwreak right before our very eyes. Those subsequent London trades were painful to read on our news feeds. .

 

[Dogs Enthusiast]

You mean one of the trades that gave us our excellent goalie? Plus a few other players currently on our roster.

 

[IceDogFan]

You need to give up on this idea. This team is excellent and will be even better next year.

..and then? They are reaping the benefits of picking really high in the draft and having those players turn out better than expected even for high picks. 2 years from now we'll see if DD has a clue on how to reset after a go for it year. I think once this current crop of studs is gone this team will be in dire circumstances.

 

[IceDogs452]

Just for clarification: The Dickinson situation was a DD decision (choice). Acting GM John Walters had other options available to him. However, DD opted for the Hunter deal for picks, which was fine, except that within exactly 14 months (culminating with Brody Crane deal), Mark Hunter retrieved all of those picks (+1) back from Darren. DD managed to turn a potential good trade into an unmitigated disaster and really was the start of his downfall with this fan base.

The Hayden Reid situation was another draft fail, especially now in retrospect. First, DD used a high 3rd round pick on a redrafted 06 in an 07 draft. Reid is the highest ever re-drafted positional player in an OHL draft and he didn’t even show up. Bad. What make this worse? IceDogs could have drafted 07 Arrowsmith with that pick. Instead, DD lost that pick and now used a 3,3 and 6 to trade for him.

Yeah the Reid pick was terrible.

DD has had 2 good drafts and 12 months of pretty good trades followed by the smart move of holding at the deadline. Follow that up with another 12 months of good trades, another good draft and a good import draft and the future is very very bright.