Better yet, I said some of those teams sold to kick start a re-tool and then added 2-3 years later; yet still did not finish at least 4th and win at least one playoff round.
Niagara Icedogs 2024-25 Season Thread, Part III
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Better yet, I said some of those teams sold to kick start a re-tool and then added 2-3 years later; yet still did not finish at least 4th and win at least one playoff round.
Maybe even a bit optimistic. If the IceDogs can just finish a perfectly middling 5-6 in conference / 10-11 overall after all the crying by some the team was ‘all-in’ just to squeak into the playoffs, it will have been a very good year imo.
knowescape
Made you look
I am still fairly confident on a third or fourth. That's up from my prediction of fifth or sixth at the start of the season. I'm hoping those that added take some time to gel and that any illness or injury on the IceDogs team is short-term.
beastintheeast
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- Mar 27, 2013
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Dropping to 5th is not a bad thing. I say that because Brantford, Kingston Oshawa Barrie and Sudbury are all going to be fighting for first and if not the home ice advantage.
That is ice on the stat sheet for the end of the season.
The thing about it is that as soon as the season is over, who really cares?
The healthy team that comes in with well-rested goalies and star players will be hard to beat.
Niagara needs to protect it's greatest asset Flores.
In a seven-in-ten-day playoff, it is very hard for the stars to manage their aches and pains. Also, teams start to notice those players and will take advantage.
If coming in 5th allows Boudreau to rest and prepare his team for the playoffs, then all the better. When playing the 4th place team, it does not matter who gets the home ice advantage. You are going to play them whether you are a healthy 5th or banged up 4th
I really expect to see Flores get fewer games as it gets closer to the playoffs
beastintheeast
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Dirty we have seen teams that developed their players through the draft with the odd tweak, and lately, we have seen teams that build a little trade away all their picks so they have a good chance in the playoffs even if they are not able to win it all. Then they go back to being a bottom team for a year, a mid-to-low card team for a year then the 3rd year they trade all their draft picks away again and start over.
Personally as a fan If I knew what the owner was doing the Niagara plan seems to be the best.
If you look at a team like Ottawa under Kilrea or NB under Bert those teams were always a power. They never blew their brains out in trades and left the fans looking at the product coming back with high hopes. They always drafted well and got the most out of the players they drafted.
The Mavety system never appealed to me. As a first-round pick, you don't get ice time, and by the way, all you are to me is a trade chip.
Andlauer was feted for how good his teams were in the OHL, but they never won a M. They won the league championship and have been consistently at the middle or top of the league.
If Niagara is as competitive as Kingston in the playoffs, who is the real winner as an owner.
@ different owners that willhave gotten where they are by 2 different means.
I don’t think you are seeing the big picture. Yes the team is doing better but there are still so many deficiencies.
Each year DD has owned the team, at least one player chosen in the first three rounds of the draft has refused to report but then signed with another OHL team as soon as their rights were traded.
Under DD, they have never drafted a US player, likely because US scholarships cost more.
Most of the players they draft are players represented by one particular agent. So in other words instead of drafting the best player available, they draft the best player who is under that agent.
But really the off ice stuff is what really bothers me. Business wise, they are a mess. Attendance has fallen from around 4800 per game under the old owners to about 3300 per game under the new owner. During this season, a number of IceDogs employees have been let go, presumably to stay afloat financially. The owner or GM rarely communicates with the fans or community and many people in Niagara have lost interest in the team.
I really believe that if the owner doesn’t sell the team soon, we could be seeing the end of the Niagara IceDogs.
ohloutsider
Registered User
Totally disagree with this. Show me 1 coach that will gladly give up home ice, home crowds, last change, no travel so that a player gets one or 2 extra days to heal? It's a development league, tough it up a bit and rip the bandaid off. Players, coaches, teams play to win. Not coast into a 5th place finish.
I agree with most of this but your first point doesn’t make sense, Dickinson was never coming to Niagara so not a DD fault, Reid chose NCAA and the possibility of playing in OHL came about after he was traded. So blame bad drafting if you want but the haul they got for Dickinson was better than drafting a worse player who would report. Reid sucks anyway and is going NCAA so who cares about him reporting to Flint.
Cost cutting I agree
US players I agree
1 agent I agree (although with Wassilyn it worked in their favour)
Import usage not mentioned but gotta use that.
The last 2 drafts have been good so honestly not too much of a complaint there.
12 months of good moves on the hockey ops side of things has me optimistic. Some slight overpays but the last 12 months of trades have been wayyyyyyy better than what was going on before that and most of the pickups are working out.
The off ice stuff I agree is where the concern lies. I don’t think it’s panic time though or that Niagara is close to losing the team.
Dogs Enthusiast
Registered User
The attendance problem started under the old regime with the scandals that hit the national media. Plus covid. The attendance fell by 900 people the last year of Burkes ownership and first full year after covid.
Niagara IceDogs yearly attendance at hockeydb.com
A historical graph of the yearly attendance for the Niagara IceDogs of the Ontario Hockey League.
www.hockeydb.com
Then we were basement dwellers for 3 years.
Obviously, the problems with DD had an impact with ST sales. Its just not 100% on him.
I disagree. The last season the Burke’s owned the team, there were capacity restrictions in place due to Covid and all teams saw a decrease in attendance. However the IceDogs still had the fourth highest attendance in the league that year.
OHL 2021-22 team attendance at hockeydb.com
Attendance for the Ontario Hockey League for the 2021-22 season
www.hockeydb.com
I really don’t believe this mess has anything to do with the Burke’s. The first season DD owned the team was crazy. He set a record for most trades, verbally attacked the media during an interview and the team had their worst record since moving to Niagara. Still, attendance was solid with over 4,000 per game (7th best in league). But since then attendance has declined every season.
Dogs Enthusiast
Registered User
The Burke scandal cost STH's. I personally knew 1 person who didn't renew because of it.
You talk like DD inherited this beautiful franchise in a perfect position to succeed. He inherited a shitty team that had forfeited a pick already then Dickinson to London plus the scandals plus COVID having an impact on willingness for people to return.
DD deserves a lot of blame for the under US utilization, shedding players due to education pacakages, not using import, cost cutting off ice. 2 years of too many trades and bad trades. But not everything that happened was his fault.
As I said, the on ice has turned around, a couple good drafts and 12 months of significantly better trading (and smartly staying pat at the deadline). The off ice business management stuff needs to improve, the Import draft next year must improve to.
Leading up to 2025-26 season opener wish list:
Home ice advantage in 24-25 playoffs
Win a playoff series
Good import draft
Good 2025 draft
2-3 smart summer trades (1-2 OA’s, goalie if not grabbed as import)
If you can accomplish 4/5 of those this team is going to be 1 of the front runners in the east next year.
Bring in more scouts and actually invest a little in the business side of things and that would be perfect.
Dogs Enthusiast
Registered User
Returning to being a winning team will improve a lot of current issues.
beastintheeast
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- Mar 27, 2013
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Okay, answer me this: how good are you guys if Flores gets worn out? Do you have a backup plan
1 team is simply Peterborough Petes. They don't care where they end up as long as they are healthy Then look what their track record is like.
Coaches want to go deep into the playoffs. They should have a goal of winning the playoffs
Would a coach rather win big wear out his players and get 2nd or third only to be 4 and done
OR
Woold a coach like to save some of his horses maybe not finish 2nd but finish 4th or 5th with a rested and hungry team that goes to the 3rd round of playoffs.
Which choice would you want as a fan
knowescape
Made you look
When you are looking at attendance, the individual numbers don't tell the whole story. Especially considering COVID it is tough to get a true picture of what's happening by looking at the IceDogs by themselves. Consider instead looking at the relative performance of the team compared to the OHL as a whole:
| Year | Attendance | Rank |
| 2014 | 4328 | 8th |
| 2015 | 4557 | 5th |
| 2016 | 4804 | 5th |
| 2017 | 4855 | 4th |
| 2018 | 5035 | 4th |
| 2019 | 4907 | 4th |
| 2021 | 3547 | 4th |
| 2022 | 4065 | 7th |
| 2023 | 3878 | 9th |
| 2024 (YTD) | 3310 | 15th |
The year 2014 was the first year at the Meridian Centre and 2022 was the first season with DeDobbelaer as the owner.
Resolving the current issues will ensure the team is a winning one.
knowescape
Made you look
I personally know 14 people who stayed on during the Billy & Joey scandal, but left because of DD's actions.
ohloutsider
Registered User
Not an icedog fan so not concerned with Flores .
I already posted that teams in the 4 ,5 spot play to win to get home ice. Teams in the 9 , 10 spot play for a better draft position. In the icedogs case they will be playing for home ice and not coincide a game to rest up for the playoffs. Seems confusing to me that you think a team would consider dropping out of a chance at home ice so they could rest players? You would knock the competitive heart right out of your team. Not going to convince me otherwise.
knowescape
Made you look
I partially agree with you.
When a player defects there is usually a mittful of picks to replace them. It is a good strategy when you are in a go-for-it situation and short-term picks are a better option than a 16 year old player. Marty Williamson employed this tactic successfully.
In the case of Sam Dickinson, Niagara was NOT in a position to go-for-it and desperately needed skilled players for their rebuild. Instead, they had a hole in their line-up and the picks we got for Dickinson were squandered like a trash-panda on meth by DD.
The part that was missing then and still is today, is the relationship aspect between team, agent, player and family. The team has to cultivate that dynamic well in advance of the draft and have a strong measure of comfort that when we make the call it will get answered. Scouts play a huge role in this as does the GM and to an extend the HC as well. Identifying talent, is one aspect, but if the player doesn't feel the love - you can't convince them after the fact just because you called their name.
Dogs Enthusiast
Registered User
Yep, we were already down a 1000 before DD had a chance to do anything (STH are purchased before the season starts). Some of that 1000 is because covid was still an issue and not everybody was entering crowded places yet.
I think its safe to say that 4000 was DD's base line number. Anything under that is on him.
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knowescape
Made you look
I think it's safe to say you intentionally miss the point of any argument that paints DD in a bad light.
Numbers fluctuated across the league due to COVID. Even though the restrictions were eased, many people did not return and the actual numbers fell across the entire OHL. Niagara went from a long-term 4th place standing to 7th under DD, then 9th and now 15th!
The average attendance figures under the Burkes for the six years pre-COVID is 4,747. If DD is at 3,310 now, I'd argue he is responsible for 1,400 that is missing.
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Dogs Enthusiast
Registered User
I'm saying it was 7th when he started making decisions. We have dropped to 15th which is on him.
That "paints him in a bad light".
That "paints him in a bad light".
knowescape
Made you look
So he was responsible for NOTHING during his first year? Despite having a whole season he couldn't move that dial up any further?
I’d be happily surprised if they won’t drop to 4-5 I still have them finishing 6-7
I don’t worry about what the fans think from here on out I’d worry about what DD think from here on out especially if they fall in the standings which I’m expecting
Dogs Enthusiast
Registered User
Not really. The STH sales were already completed before he had a chance to mess things up and piss people off.
I still contend, The Burke scandal had an impact. You are saying otherwise. Correct?
IceDogs attendance seems to increase late in the season. I would not be surprised if higher attendance rates coincide with poor Buffalo Bills seasons.
We will see, I doubt the IceDogs finish 15th in league attendance.
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