Post-Game Talk: NHL Trade Deadline - Canucks trade Diaz for a 5th, Kesler remains a Canuck

[RobertKron]

I'm not sure you can really translate a big contract as a UFA into a good trade value. I won't be the least bit surprised if Vanek gets some absurd contract in July but his return was awful.

Vanek's return was awful because he's a rental who, as far as I understand, already knows where he wants to go in July, and there wasn't a big market of teams that could take on his contract and wanted to pay out the nose for a couple months of him.

Kesler is under contract for another couple years below market rate. At the draft, teams are looking to fill holes going forward, and that makes Kesler very appealing, especially considering that Kesler gives them free bonus cap space for two years compared to signing an equivalent player as a UFA on July 1. Additionally, they get the added security of going into the summer with that piece in place - and are able to have a more concrete plan due to that - rather than having to rely on hoping or guessing at what player they'll actually land in free agency, and how much cap space they'll need to allocate to him.

 

[arsmaster*]

The problem is it doesn't seem like anyone else was either which suggests that maybe Kesler is a less valued commodity than Staal was.

I agree Kesler is a better player, but Staal was both far younger and more productive in recent years than Kesler is now so maybe it makes sense. Staal was 24 years old coming off a 33 goal/66 point pace season where he played primarily with 3rd liners (Cooke and Kennedy). Kesler is 29 years old coming off 3 years of 50-55 point pace play while playing with 2nd/3rd liners.

So while I don't necessarily agree with the idea that a guy like Staal should return more value, I can see an argument for it based on Staal's progression at the time.

New York was, apparently.

And it didn't take a genius to know Jordan was only going to Carolina. I would have thought since Shero was given solid value from Rutherford when he was painted into a corner, he'd have done the same thing for Gillis.

Too bad for Gillis that it seems he has an abysmal reputation in trades, and Shero saw this more like a Nieuwendyk situation where he could fleece the other GM (Neal AND Niskanen continues to look dreadful) than one where they can work together and fill both teams needs (although Pitt couldn't do that anyways).

 

[Royal Canuck]

I think Pittsburgh probably thought Gillis was on the hot seat...
And he wants to save his job.
I do not know rather it is true or not...
But I believe that was why the Pens...
Through Rossi...
Leaked the rumour of ownership interference...
In order to put more pressure on Gillis...
And why the offers got worse...
Not better...
As time went on.

Pittsburgh...
In the words of Mikael Samuelsson...
Can go do something anatomically impossible to themselves.
I hope you choke in the playoffs...
Again.

we all need to snap, that is some poetry.

 

[opendoor]

I think the point is that if you could get a player for substantially less than their hypothetical UFA contract this summer is going to be, except they have term so you don't have to give them that ludicrous amount of money (yet), that is valuable.

Vanek doesn't exactly apply because Montreal, or whoever outbids them in all likelihood, is going to have to make Vanek one of the highest paid players in the league.

OK, but then you have to ask yourself why pretty much every rumored offer was bad. And why teams like Philadelphia or Chicago didn't even bother seriously pursuing him.

Luongo's cap hit is arguably under market value and the recapture penalties are pretty minimal for an acquiring team at this point, but that didn't stop him from bringing back less than Reto Berra did (once you account for salary retention).

 

[Bleach Clean]

OK, but then you have to ask yourself why pretty much every rumored offer was bad. And why teams like Philadelphia or Chicago didn't even bother seriously pursuing him.

Luongo's cap hit is arguably under market value and the recapture penalties are pretty minimal for an acquiring team at this point, but that didn't stop him from bringing back less than Reto Berra did (once you account for salary retention).

Cap for CHI, as in Gillis wouldn't take on Bickell to make it happen for them, and PHI already has a plethora of centres. Frankly, I am still surprised PHI showed any interest at all. They don't need Kesler. He would be a nice upgrade, but they don't need him.

Shero played this perfectly. He's letting Kesler do all the heavy lifting for him.

 

[RobertKron]

OK, but then you have to ask yourself why pretty much every rumored offer was bad. And why teams like Philadelphia or Chicago didn't even bother seriously pursuing him.

Luongo's cap hit is arguably under market value and the recapture penalties are pretty minimal for an acquiring team at this point, but that didn't stop him from bringing back less than Reto Berra did (once you account for salary retention).

Luongo was only willing to go to one team. With that in mind, the Canucks pretty much bent the Panthers over on that one, given all the controversy surrounding him.

The Hawks currently have 52,489 in cap space, according to capgeek. This is why the draft makes so much more sense, and is generally a much more common time, for multi-year high-end assets to be moved rather than the deadline.

 

[nameless1]

Cap for CHI, as in Gillis wouldn't take on Bickell to make it happen for them, and PHI already has a plethora of centres. Frankly, I am still surprised PHI showed any interest at all. They don't need Kesler. He would be a nice upgrade, but they don't need him.

Shero played this perfectly. He's letting Kesler do all the heavy lifting for him.

Philly is always in on star players.
They might also be in just to troll the Penguins.
Who knows what their true level of interests were.

 

[dave babych returns]

OK, but then you have to ask yourself why pretty much every rumored offer was bad. And why teams like Philadelphia or Chicago didn't even bother seriously pursuing him.

Well that I don't know. Chicago said up and down that they weren't doing anything (lo and behold, they didn't do anything) and Philly I never really saw as a fit personally.. more of a "well if Holmgren is going to lose his mind again maybe it's for Kesler" type of scenario.

Perhaps (assuming Kesler wants to waive again) Kesler continues to only waive for a small handful of teams and they don't even want to acquire him in the offseason, I don't really know.

I think if you had a Kesler you could simply move to the highest bidder the return would be considerable. If you can move him to one of a few interested teams then it might still be. Who knows whether that will be the case or not.

 

[arsmaster*]

right now but even the best teams do go through ridiculously bad stretches during a season at times.

20 games is a lot different than 82.

Do you mean watching the 20 game stretch vs 82, or a team playing badly for 20 vs 82?

I don't know how to fix this team. This team's scoring is brutal and has been that way for a long time. I don't expect it to magically get better. The players are older and the coaching change doesn't seem to have shaken the comfort level of just showing up and collecting paychecks out of these guys' system.

We're gonna be picking top 8 without rookies, what do you think it looks like with some more. Sadly Bo Horvat isn't Nathan Mackinnon.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Well the framework was there for all to see. Everyone knew the Canucks were after a roster C between 20-25 yrs old, a top prospect (a real top prospect) and a 1st round pick.

Shero wasn't even willing to offer what he got for Jordan Staal, when Kesler is clearly the better player, signed to term 2 seasons + this playoffs (not one season).

Shero and Byslma's tampering didn't work, because they didn't come to the table with anything reasonable, and really didn't have what we were looking for.


I don't blame Gillis for seeking Lindholm, doesn't sound like Silfverberg was offered either.

You're not going to get a 29 year old player who has the attributes and resume of Ryan Kesler for parts you have no problem dealing away. It's going to be a deal that you're worried about what the prospects and young players turn into ie. a hockey trade that helps both teams.

I understand the vitriol towards Gillis for the goalie debacle, but not for keeping Kesler because nobody wanted him bad enough.

that sounds alot like sutter, despreses and Pitts' 1st (if that was the offer) Kesler is 29 and has had 3 lessened seasons offensively and while still a horse up front, eating minutes ect, his offense isn't top line quality.

Sutter (and the Pens) probably were never a good fit but Simon is going to be a very good Dman and i'm surprised the Black Hawks weren't in the mix more.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

that sounds alot like sutter, despreses and Pitts' 1st (if that was the offer) Kesler is 29 and has had 3 lessened seasons offensively and while still a horse up front, eating minutes ect, his offense isn't top line quality.

Sutter (and the Pens) probably were never a good fit but Simon is going to be a very good Dman and i'm surprised the Black Hawks weren't in the mix more.

He said a real top prospect. Pouliot, I'd imagine is what we were after.

 

[Hardyvan123]

That's actually very incorrect in this case.

Only thing that would prevent real value coming back, imo, is Kesler not waiving for a team.

Draft is actually a better time, and actually the 2015 draft is better... so would rather move next year for picks.

Bad deadline this year. Let's move on.

we will agree to disagree on this one, ryan has had 2 major injuries in the last 3 years and his production has slipped by over .10 PPG, which is substantial given he is in his prime.

given his age/style of play/decreased production and injury history the longer we go the more risk we carry.

At some point looking forward at the big picture becomes more important IMO.

this team needs a shakeup as it is flat and going nowhere fast, Kesler is our best asset if Gillis misjudges, like he did on Lou last year then how does that help us long term?

 

[Hardyvan123]

He said a real top prospect. Pouliot, I'd imagine is what we were after.

Could very well be as he is the better PP prospect while Simon is better defensively, still Sutter, and the fact we know have Mathias would make that trade kind of redundant.

 

[David71]

kesler could and will fetch more at the draft. more capspace. im sure 29 other teams will be interested in him and willing to give up quite a package of kesler's caliber. his body is only good for 3 playoff rounds IMO.

 

[MikeK]

kesler could and will fetch more at the draft. more capspace. im sure 29 other teams will be interested in him and willing to give up quite a package of kesler's caliber. his body is only good for 3 playoff rounds IMO.

He still has final say though. More teams bidding is a great idea but if Kesler isn't willing to go it really doesn't matter.

 

[Orca Smash]

iain macintyre like bob mckenzie just said owners did not squash anything . And that the pens staff called the canucks to apologize for that. And don taylor mentioned insiders at sportsnet heard pens staff saying the owners squashed it. But again they phoned the canucks staff and apologized and from whats being reported by mckenzie, macintyre, they did not veto anything. Both bob and macintyre said the canucks simply set a price and it was not met. And iain added the pens got upset with mike not willing to waiver.

 

[ShouldveDraftedFiala]

iain macintyre like bob mckenzie just said owners did not squash anything . And that the pens staff called the canucks to apologize for that. And don taylor mentioned insiders at sportsnet heard pens staff saying the owners squashed it. But again they phoned and apologized and from whats being reported by mckenzie, macintyre, they did not veto anything. Both bob and macintyre said the canucks simply set a price and it was not met.

I don't understand. Why did the pens staff phone and apologize?

 

[nameless1]

iain macintyre like bob mckenzie just said owners did not squash anything . And that the pens staff called the canucks to apologize for that. And don taylor mentioned insiders at sportsnet heard pens staff saying the owners squashed it. But again they phoned and apologized and from whats being reported by mckenzie, macintyre, they did not quash anything. Both bob and macintyre have said the canucks simply set a price and it was not met.

Apologize my donkey butt.
They did it to put pressure on the Canucks.
I really...
Really...
Hope they choke in the playoffs.

 

[MikeK]

iain macintyre like bob mckenzie just said owners did not squash anything . And that the pens staff called the canucks to apologize for that. And don taylor mentioned insiders at sportsnet heard pens staff saying the owners squashed it. But again they phoned and apologized and from whats being reported by mckenzie, macintyre, they did not veto anything. Both bob and macintyre said the canucks simply set a price and it was not met.

I hope they send a nice basket along as well. Big meanies

 

[nameless1]

I don't understand. Why did the pens staff phone and apologize?

My guess is that it may be grounds for tampering.
That is a pure guess though.

 

[Orca Smash]

I hope they send a nice basket along as well. Big meanies

You dont want that getting out that your owners are vetoing deals the gm tries to make.

They apologized because thats internal discussion that is not to be leaked when trying to make a deal and certainly if you were gillis or a gm would you like reports coming out you dont have power to make a trade because your owners telling you no?

 

[arsmaster*]

He still has final say though. More teams bidding is a great idea but if Kesler isn't willing to go it really doesn't matter.

I think it matters, because if Kesler truly wants to leave (who wouldn't....it's been quite the fall) he's going to have to open up his options. If he doesn't the Canucks will continue to run him hard and put him away wet. He'll lose to possible years to compete for a cup, and will likely have 24mins/night for 2 more years on his resume.

How much money does 31 year old, tired legs Kesler get on the open market? Might get more, if he moved to an eastern market with less travel, no fishbowl etc.

 

[ShouldveDraftedFiala]

My guess is that it may be grounds for tampering.
That is a pure guess though.

I'm missing something. What was grounds for tampering?

 

[nameless1]

You dont want that getting out that your owners are vetoing deals the gm tries to make.

They apologized because thats internal discussion that is not to be leaked when trying to make a deal and certainly if you were gillis or a gm would you like reports coming out you dont have power to make a trade because your owners telling you no?

It was not true at all though...
And that may be grounds for a complaint.
A complaint may have very well been filed...
And the league forced the Pens to apologize.
Again...
It is just my guess.

 

[MikeK]

You dont want that getting out that your owners are vetoing deals the gm tries to make.

They apologized because thats internal discussion that is not to be leaked when trying to make a deal and certainly if you were gillis or a gm would you like reports coming out you dont have power to make a trade because your owners telling you no?

I doubt PITT gives a crap. They probably just want to take another run at Kess after the season and don't want to sour the water.