World Cup: NHL/NHLPA discussing 2024 World Cup

[Omotenashi]

Would having a qualification round necessarily be that difficult/awful?

Say that the final tournament only featured eight teams. Couldn’t one set up a few back to back qualifiers based on the IIHF rankings for example (maybe a bad example considering it’s heavily influenced by a long series of non-best on best competition, but just for conversation), to give the teams ranked 5 through 12 a chance to compete for the last four spots?

Based on today’s ranking (due to change after the Olympics I presume), we’re looking at Germany v. Denmark, Czechia v. Norway, Sweden v. Latvia, and Switzerland v. Slovakia in two games before the actual tournament. Bully to Kopitar, but it seems like a relatively fair way to go. And terrifying.

It is obviously not difficult to do, but I can't see the NHL having any interest in doing this:
1. If you want NHL players to take part in these qualifiers you will need to take additional time out of the NHL schedule for these games which are of very little interest to the average North American.
2. With your setup you risk excluding some or all (unlikely but still) of Germany, Czechia, Sweden and Switzerland from the main tournament, which would make it a lot less attractive. Without NHL players in the qualification that risk would be even higher.

I am happy if the tournament only contains proper national teams. Giving everyone who could possibly put together a more or less competitive team together a chance to compete is probably too much to hope for unless it is a tournament organized by the IIHF.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

It is obviously not difficult to do, but I can't see the NHL having any interest in doing this:
1. If you want NHL players to take part in these qualifiers you will need to take additional time out of the NHL schedule for these games which are of very little interest to the average North American.
2. With your setup you risk excluding some or all (unlikely but still) of Germany, Czechia, Sweden and Switzerland from the main tournament, which would make it a lot less attractive. Without NHL players in the qualification that risk would be even higher.

I am happy if the tournament only contains proper national teams. Giving everyone who could possibly put together a more or less competitive team together a chance to compete is probably too much to hope for unless it is a tournament organized by the IIHF.

1. I’m not sure it would need to take extra time off the schedule? As I recall, the teams had a couple of exhibition games before the 2016 World Cup. Let’s make them so they actually mean something while providing Josi, Ehlers, Zuccarello, Tatar etc a chance to make the tournament.

2. Yeah, there’s a risk, but I think it should be possible to create a qualifying format that the NHL might find palatable. Six shoo-ins and four teams competing for the last two spots?

It would help legitimizing the tournament as well as help create some hype around the underdogs who fought it out in qualifiers.

 

[garbageteam]

Get real people.
If the NHL thinks it can garner more interest with fake teams, the World Cup will have gimmick teams.

The NHLs target audience isn't the international hockey enthusist. We're already in their back pocket.
Bettman, like always, will attempt to appeal to the casual hockey fan.
If the NHL thinks Team U23 and Team Europe will amass more interest than Team Germany or Switzerland with the casual fan, get ready for Team Young Gunzzzz!!! and Team Leftovers in 2024.

It all comes down to $$. Always.

The gimmick teams were a horrible sell and based on reports the last World Cup was financially a terrible performer. The NHL very likely did worse and sold fewer tickets, jerseys and garnered far less attention for the tournament by having these gimmick teams than just ditching them and going with 6. Think of how shitty and neutered USA was, the lack of McDavid + Crosby, a BEST OF 3 final with leftover Europe vs Canada...

Think of the storylines if we had McDavid + Crosby on the top line vs a full USA squad with all their U23s in the best of 3 final, and perhaps a final buzzer beater.

This huge mistake should never be repeated again. It was almost universally panned and I only really read a few random HFboard users and Redditors supporting it.

 

[Czechboy]

The gimmick teams were a horrible sell and based on reports the last World Cup was financially a terrible performer. The NHL very likely did worse and sold fewer tickets, jerseys and garnered far less attention for the tournament by having these gimmick teams than just ditching them and going with 6. Think of how shitty and neutered USA was, the lack of McDavid + Crosby, a BEST OF 3 final with leftover Europe vs Canada...

Think of the storylines if we had McDavid + Crosby on the top line vs a full USA squad with all their U23s in the best of 3 final, and perhaps a final buzzer beater.

This huge mistake should never be repeated again. It was almost universally panned and I only really read a few random HFboard users and Redditors supporting it.

I actually cringed when you reminded me it was a beat of 3 finale with team Europe. Off to rinse the vomit out of the back of my throat now.

 

[JTD]

The gimmick teams were a horrible sell and based on reports the last World Cup was financially a terrible performer. The NHL very likely did worse and sold fewer tickets, jerseys and garnered far less attention for the tournament by having these gimmick teams than just ditching them and going with 6. Think of how shitty and neutered USA was, the lack of McDavid + Crosby, a BEST OF 3 final with leftover Europe vs Canada...

Think of the storylines if we had McDavid + Crosby on the top line vs a full USA squad with all their U23s in the best of 3 final, and perhaps a final buzzer beater.

This huge mistake should never be repeated again. It was almost universally panned and I only really read a few random HFboard users and Redditors supporting it.

NHL wanted to take advantage of the US-Canada rivalry and promote a Ryder Cup style tournament that nobody really asked for and it failed miserably. They didn’t realize how bad it would hurt USA Hockey. Zero chance the gimmick teams happen again. NHL needs this tournament to do a killing financially and having gimmick teams would ruin any chance of it being taken seriously. I expect there to be 8-10 teams with a small qualifying tournament. I think they’ll relax a lot of nationality eligibility and allow Canadians/Americans with heritage from the smaller nations to represent them in the qualifying stage like MLB does.

 

[Omotenashi]

I think they’ll relax a lot of nationality eligibility and allow Canadians/Americans with heritage from the smaller nations to represent them in the qualifying stage like MLB does.

Would there really be a lot of value in that? Russia, Finland, Sweden and Czechia would probably not really strengthen their teams by finding any North Americans with heritage. I guess you could strengthen the German team by finding some American/Canadians with more or less distant German heritage. But that would probably just have a negative effect on any interest you want to create in Germany.
Or you replace one of the top 10 ranked nations with Italian and maybe French teams full of heritage players. At that point it feels extremely gimmicky again and I would have my doubts that this would really create any interest in those countries.

 

[wetcoast]

NHL wanted to take advantage of the US-Canada rivalry and promote a Ryder Cup style tournament that nobody really asked for and it failed miserably. They didn’t realize how bad it would hurt USA Hockey. Zero chance the gimmick teams happen again. NHL needs this tournament to do a killing financially and having gimmick teams would ruin any chance of it being taken seriously. I expect there to be 8-10 teams with a small qualifying tournament. I think they’ll relax a lot of nationality eligibility and allow Canadians/Americans with heritage from the smaller nations to represent them in the qualifying stage like MLB does.

Zero chance for gimmick teams then you go on to promote gimmick teams?

 

[fryfunk]

Get real people.
If the NHL thinks it can garner more interest with fake teams, the World Cup will have gimmick teams.

The NHLs target audience isn't the international hockey enthusist. We're already in their back pocket.
Bettman, like always, will attempt to appeal to the casual hockey fan.
If the NHL thinks Team U23 and Team Europe will amass more interest than Team Germany or Switzerland with the casual fan, get ready for Team Young Gunzzzz!!! and Team Leftovers in 2024.

It all comes down to $$. Always.

This is pretty much how it goes.

I get the appeal of a purist international tournament, but I'm gonna argue for something that'll actually happen.

Draisaitl isn't gonna be excluded from the tournament. The NHL isn't gonna bring in a bunch of non union players and watch as non NHLers give career ending injuries to union members.

If you reject what the NHL is offering up you get nothing.

An NHL run world cup creates an incentive for the NHL to be more open to Olympic hockey.

It makes international competition something they can make money off of.

The NHL isn't gonna subsidize international hockey, unless they are currently making money off it.

The beauty of alternative Olympic games/World cups, is that it means you can have a consistant 2 year schedule. Every other season has a break and the follow year will be a shortened season. It means the amount of time between seasons can remain exactly the same, every single year.

 

[OskarOskarius]

I agree, the NHL is pretty incapable of marketing its own club league product, never mind hosting and marketing a best on best international competition by itself. I'm just making the point that the two earliest iterations of the World Cup (1996, 2004) had real national teams and didn't need the ploy of gimmick all star teams to do it.

A gimmick team that would be fun is an EU team. So you would have Canada, USA, Russia and EU or just North America vs Europe.

 

[OskarOskarius]

Would having a qualification round necessarily be that difficult/awful?

Say that the final tournament only featured eight teams. Couldn’t one set up a few back to back qualifiers based on the IIHF rankings for example (maybe a bad example considering it’s heavily influenced by a long series of non-best on best competition, but just for conversation), to give the teams ranked 5 through 12 a chance to compete for the last four spots?

Based on today’s ranking (due to change after the Olympics I presume), we’re looking at Germany v. Denmark, Czechia v. Norway, Sweden v. Latvia, and Switzerland v. Slovakia in two games before the actual tournament. Bully to Kopitar, but it seems like a relatively fair way to go. And terrifying.

Sweden is way to good to play a qualifier against Latvia.

 

[fryfunk]

The gimmick teams were a horrible sell and based on reports the last World Cup was financially a terrible performer.

You're building an entirely new brand. It takes time to build up momentum. That's how those types of things work.

The NHL very likely did worse and sold fewer tickets, jerseys and garnered far less attention for the tournament by having these gimmick teams than just ditching them and going with 6. Think of how shitty and neutered USA was, the lack of McDavid + Crosby, a BEST OF 3 final with leftover Europe vs Canada...

You're describing two very different problems. The young guns team was awful, for a very different reason than team Europe.

The whole purpose of the tournament was to see McDavid/Corsby play together, that team did exactly the opposite.

That's a far cry from the cool factor of seeing a Chara and a Draisaitl side by side.

Think of the storylines if we had McDavid + Crosby on the top line vs a full USA squad with all their U23s in the best of 3 final, and perhaps a final buzzer beater.

This huge mistake should never be repeated again. It was almost universally panned and I only really read a few random HFboard users and Redditors supporting it.

If it was top 6 I'm not sure it would have gotten any more attention.

It takes time to build up momentum tradition etc.

There's a vast difference between saying the young guns was a horrible gimmick and saying team europe was a horrible gimmick.

 

[garbageteam]

^ I don't necessarily disagree regarding leftover Europe being less of a vomit bag idea as NA U23 was, as even in soccer you have Home Nations instead of the UK and Cricket you have teams like the West Indies. There is an "Island of Ireland" rugby team as well. NA U23 had the effect of harming two of the top teams of the tournament while Europe left the other European nations unaffected.

But I really think the ship has sailed as there have already been decades of strong traditions (and even medals won) established for Slovak, German, Danish, Swiss, Latvian hockey etc. If you begin the international paradigm by starting off with an England and Scotland team, or a West Indies team, or an Ireland rugby team that is Republic of Ireland + Northern Ireland, then there might be a case.

One can't take away from what the federations and fans have built for these teams and I doubt the vast majority of German hockey fans would really want Draisaitl skating alongside Ehlers in an international tournament. They'd rather him be with other Germans like Stutzle, Reichel, Peterka etc. Not to mention there will be no German flag, no German uniform, no German anthem or coherent language spoken among the team. None of the actual countries the players represent would be for it - and in 2016, several of the European players were outspoken against it. They just did it anyway because they got paid. Except the NHL likely didn't and made less money than they could have because of it.

And for anyone bringing up Kopitar as a reason to have such a team since Slovenia is at least 8 teams away from making a future World Cup...dude is now 34, not a very popular hockey player in general outside of a few hardcore NHL fans and not that marketable, and it's not like there are other up and coming Slovenian hockey players banging at the door. He's good don't get me wrong but he's not a Draisaitl level player in terms of impact or popularity, and Draisaitl actually has a team he can bring with him to play in this and not get whooped 6-0 by everyone.

In any case this is a moot point. If there was widespread success, adoption and praises lauded upon the gimmicks in terms of both sales revenues for the 2016 World Cup and pundits around the world, then we would end up just being sports purists whining on an online forum while they have good momentum to press ahead.

But that totally didn't happen. The NHL got egg on its face, the tournament was rather stupid and a joke, and they know if they repeat it, after a solid 10 years since the last best on best tournament with real nations, it would also fail miserably and not generate the income, attention or prestige that it wants. Short of a few outliers the NHL prioritizes 1. making money and 2. generate positive buzz. Gimmick teams in an international tournament support neither of that, no matter how many iterations they try.

 

[Pasha71]

Make it 12 teams. Canada, USA, Russia, Sweden, Finland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Germany, Switzerland and three qualifiers. You can have World Cup qualification tournaments in 2023, or just use World Championship 2024 as a qualifying tournament. Or use IIHF Rankings.

 

[fryfunk]

But I really think the ship has sailed as there have already been decades of strong traditions (and even medals won) established for Slovak, German, Danish, Swiss, Latvian hockey etc. If you begin the international paradigm by starting off with an England and Scotland team, or a West Indies team, or an Ireland rugby team that is Republic of Ireland + Northern Ireland, then there might be a case.

One can't take away from what the federations and fans have built for these teams and I doubt the vast majority of German hockey fans would really want Draisaitl skating alongside Ehlers in an international tournament. They'd rather him be with other Germans like Stutzle, Reichel, Peterka etc. Not to mention there will be no German flag, no German uniform, no German anthem or coherent language spoken among the team. None of the actual countries the players represent would be for it - and in 2016, several of the European players were outspoken against it. They just did it anyway because they got paid. Except the NHL likely didn't and made less money than they could have because of it.

You're making a strong argument why the NHL should avoid Europe with such a tournament.

Nobody in North America is gonna pay money to see team Germany get smashed.

Quality on ice product is a top concern for the NHL.

I'd argue, watching a team getting smashed is more of a gimmick as there's zero intention of watching competitive hockey.

In any case this is a moot point. If there was widespread success, adoption and praises lauded upon the gimmicks in terms of both sales revenues for the 2016 World Cup and pundits around the world, then we would end up just being sports purists whining on an online forum while they have good momentum to press ahead.

But that totally didn't happen. The NHL got egg on its face, the tournament was rather stupid and a joke, and they know if they repeat it, after a solid 10 years since the last best on best tournament with real nations, it would also fail miserably and not generate the income, attention or prestige that it wants. Short of a few outliers the NHL prioritizes 1. making money and 2. generate positive buzz. Gimmick teams in an international tournament support neither of that, no matter how many iterations they try.

Again you're conflating team north America with team Europe etc. Not having McDavid and Crosby together defeated the whole purpose of the thing.

Do you think anyone cares if team Germany shows up, people are not gonna buy tickets to a 1 sided match. Team Europe was at worst pointless, at best top tier talent. Team germany is automatically bottom tier talent. Not to mention the issue of having non union members beating up NHL stars.

A world cup is a hard thing to promote, it takes time to build up tradition, but the payoff is massive.

 

[Albatros]

If you reject what the NHL is offering up you get nothing.

Arguably the 2016 World Cup was worse than nothing. As good as no money and an awful tournament.

An NHL run world cup creates an incentive for the NHL to be more open to Olympic hockey.

Having already stayed away from back-to-back games after the 2016 World Cup the NHL does not have the leverage necessary to make such proposition attractive. Future considerations won't do, it's either a lot more money to the international partners than in 2016 or forget about it. If Olympic participation is on the table it must be binding.

 

[PanniniClaus]

You're making a strong argument why the NHL should avoid Europe with such a tournament.

Nobody in North America is gonna pay money to see team Germany get smashed.

Quality on ice product is a top concern for the NHL.

I'd argue, watching a team getting smashed is more of a gimmick as there's zero intention of watching competitive hockey.




Again you're conflating team north America with team Europe etc. Not having McDavid and Crosby together defeated the whole purpose of the thing.

Do you think anyone cares if team Germany shows up, people are not gonna buy tickets to a 1 sided match. Team Europe was at worst pointless, at best top tier talent. Team germany is automatically bottom tier talent. Not to mention the issue of having non union members beating up NHL stars.

A world cup is a hard thing to promote, it takes time to build up tradition, but the payoff is massive.

You make some solid points.

As someone that took in the only two real World Cups in 96 and 2004, You are not really chasing individual ticket money. I purchased a tournament pass for 2004 in Toronto and while the round robin games were for seeding only, you purchased that ticket with the idea that you might have a Canada vs USA final in all it's glory... Mario Lemieux... agianst the defending WC champs..now Finland ruined that but the Finns brought a well coached team with Kipper in net. They weren't far from winning it.

I will also add that Germany were actually competitive in both World Cups, smashing the Czechs on home ice in 96 and getting a playoff spot when only the top 3 in each group went through.

They then fought the Finns tooth and nail before losing 2-1 in a 2004 QF. Switzerland probably had a claim for a spot in 2004 and i do think a small qualifying tourney would be the right thing to fill out the last spot or two.

Your point on Team NA is bang on.

 

[Tutu to]

Hoping it’s not too late too see Crosby-McDavid play together.

 

[lawrence]

2024 World Cup, than make it a permanent thing every 4 years like soccer.

Which gives us a best on best every 2 years. would love it.

stay away from that bull shit, Team North America or Team Europe. Please just stay heck away from that.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

Sweden is way to good to play a qualifier against Latvia.

I’m not actually seeing Sweden having to make the World Cup via qualifiers, but I do prefer the idea of some kind of qualifying round over the idea that the smaller hockey nations/up and comers being barred on account of a perceived lack of NHL players/superstars.

 

[BigBadBoar]

I really hope it will be an 8-10 teams international tournament with no gimmick teams this time. Otherwise, European countries should just refuse to participate. But I think NHL knows well that the 2016 WC was a "meh" tournament exactly because of (both) gimmick teams, and they will not even try to repeat the same mistake.

Btw, Germany and Switzerland at least can be very competitive vs whatever team in the world.

 

[Eye of Ra]

What about giving 1 nation a wild card for the growth of the sport?

Hungary would be interesting. They have couple of good players.

Gallo - Hari - Sebok
Erdely - Sarauer - Bartalis
Csanyi - Vas - Terbocs
Magosi - Bodo - Dansereau
Mihaly, Koger

Wehrs - Macaulay
Stipsicz - Dudas
Horvath - D.Szabo

Vay
Kornakker

 

[Rabid Ranger]

What about giving 1 nation a wild card for the growth of the sport?

Hungary would be interesting. They have couple of good players.

Gallo - Hari - Sebok
Erdely - Sarauer - Bartalis
Csanyi - Vas - Terbocs
Magosi - Bodo - Dansereau
Mihaly, Koger

Wehrs - Macaulay
Stipsicz - Dudas
Horvath - D.Szabo

Vay
Kornakker

That's worse than a gimmick team. Let's not overthink this.

 

[Czechboy]

I’m not actually seeing Sweden having to make the World Cup via qualifiers, but I do prefer the idea of some kind of qualifying round over the idea that the smaller hockey nations/up and comers being barred on account of a perceived lack of NHL players/superstars.

2 things here.

1. there will be no qualifier for Sweden to make an NHL world cup
2. if they do, please bookmark this and I will print it out and record myself eating the paper and post it here!

 

[member 305909]

2024 World Cup, than make it a permanent thing every 4 years like soccer.

Which gives us a best on best every 2 years. would love it.

stay away from that bull shit, Team North America or Team Europe. Please just stay heck away from that.

If the World Cup becomes a regular event it will be a perfect reason or an excuse to forget about the Olympics forever.

 

[weklof]

My only wish is to have a legitimate best-on-best international tournament with some regularity. For me the issue with World Cup is that it is not a true international event were teams qualify on merit and aims to grow the game globally. The World Cup is an NHL run tournament meant to promote the NHL and almost only cares about the North American market. However; I will take it if it is the only thing being offered. But my main preference would be to raise the status of the IIHF World Championship so that the best players are always there, if that means moving it to the beginning of the season and/or holding it less often, I'd be fine with that. An IHWC and Olympics every four years, so that we get a best-on-best every other year would be perfect.