NHL Making Contingency Plans for Arena-less Coyotes? (All Relo Speculation Here)

[Brodie]

God realignment is the most boring subject. Honestly, if it keeps this debate from continuing I hope they don't go to QC

 

[Ugmo]

If someone is good enough to play in the NHL and make that kind of money, they should be able to have a say in where they want to play and live. Unless they're really young, then they have to tolerate Edmonton for several years before they bolt.

Your entertainment and experience is far more important than the players and their family's lives and happiness.

This is silly. No one is going to be unhappy in an affluent, first-world city when they make 1 percenter money. If they are, then they're spoiled and pampered and I have zero sympathy, sorry.

 

[Melrose Munch]

I am not trying to slam Vegas. I've never been there. I am sure there is plenty to do outside the touristy stuff on the strip. However thats true over any mid-to-large city anywhere. I am just tired of the oft-repeated stance that people from warm weather cities have on this board that there is so much to do in their cities and the reason attendence is so much higher in cold weather cities is those poor saps have nothing else to do with their time and money other than go to sporting events.

It's not an opinion of hfboards or even just the NHL. Remember that Cleveland tourism prank from years back?

Seriously? It's more important for the players to be happy than for the league to be in markets that care about hockey? I can't say I have a whole lot of sympathy for anyone who earns a million bucks and still finds a way to be miserable because he's playing in Edmonton rather than Florida. It's Edmonton, not Aleppo. The players and their families will be fine.

If someone is good enough to play in the NHL and make that kind of money, they should be able to have a say in where they want to play and live. Unless they're really young, then they have to tolerate Edmonton for several years before they bolt.

Your entertainment and experience is far more important than the players and their family's lives and happiness.

zetastrike has it. You want the players and owner to be happy, otherwise they don't perform well at all. See Sheldon Souray.

God realignment is the most boring subject. Honestly, if it keeps this debate from continuing I hope they don't go to QC

Because the NHL could or wouldn't get into major western markets after all these years, here we are.

 

[Ugmo]

So to recap, we would rather have NHL franchises in cities that are completely indifferent to them and where they consequently lose tens of millions of dollars a year than in small Canadian cities that are crazy about hockey and where the teams are profitable, because the players are pampered millionaires and it is unreasonable to ask them to have to tolerate Edmonton, Winnipeg or Quebec City.

Unreal.

 

[ThisYearsModel]

I'm guessing that their old downtown arena still has ice facilities.

Doing a 1 year deal with Suns might be the easiest.

Coyotes might only be able to get sponsorship deals for boards and ice and any LED signage.

Not a good deal financially. But at least they could transfer local sponsors.

This is really the only short term solution. Play in downtown Phoenix for a year or 2.

 

[BattleBorn]

I am not trying to slam Vegas. I've never been there. I am sure there is plenty to do outside the touristy stuff on the strip. However thats true over any mid-to-large city anywhere. I am just tired of the oft-repeated stance that people from warm weather cities have on this board that there is so much to do in their cities and the reason attendence is so much higher in cold weather cities is those poor saps have nothing else to do with their time and money other than go to sporting events.

Try being on the other side where the argument is that there's so much to do that nobody will show up to witness professional sports.

 

[aqib]

Why are you saying this like I personally support this? I'm just parroting the league thought, and even then I disagree with almost everything you say here. And frankly so does much of the league brass and PA otherwise they would not fought as hard for Arizona.


1) Every american fan is not you aqib. Most people in the us don't care about Edmonton or Winnipeg. Toronto got a game on NBC and well again next season, yet their Canadian. So don't tell me it's about Canada when clearly NBC has no problem with put the Habs and Leafs on. It's about small markets in western canada.

2) Ok, I just mentioned Pronger, Nylander, etc. The majority of players on those survey didn't have their names shown what else do you want from me? You don't think that it's odd that players say Winnipeg and Quebec and Toronto deserve teams, but I don't wanna play there? Nothing off about that to you? Ok! And then only time those US teams end up on those things is bad management. Florida had bad managment = NTC. Islanders had bad management = NTC. Was Buffalo bad in 2006? No. Was Edmonton? No, they went to the cup final. Yet Pronger's wife wanted out. How many guys you know had the Clippers on an NTC? Be honest. The Nets played in the swamp like the Devils. And who had the Nets on their NTC. If you asked the most popular destinations for free agency of the NHLPA membership it would be the east cost teams followed by LA and then Chicago, which admittedly was a bad organization so they were not an FA draw. Edmonton, and now Winnipeg were down on these list for years, it ridiculous to say oh, the teams bad when they can get anyone to stay when the teams good.

3) Fehr cares about money, great. That only proves that the players don't want to pay for expansion mistakes, which is fine. It doesn't say they won't sign there, at. Mike Gartner went to Phoenix when he was old, they also got Sean Burke. Phoenix wasn't even that good. You Oilers fans continue to blame the dollar for not signing FAs during that period, when the league was already shifting.

4) Ray and Mike were drafted by the Bucks. Bad call.

Instead of saying I'm wrong, you need to be calling out the NHLPA and NHL for their players running away from Canada and keeping Canadian teams in perpetual rebuild. And you need to call out guys like Ted Leonsis for not caring whether Canada has 3 teams or 8. This keeps coming up as an issue because people keep blaming bettman when in reality its the BOG's chase of the American viewer causing these issues.


You're nuts if you don't think Vegas will be a top FA destination. It will and that's the one surefire thing I can say about that market.

First the PA wasn't fighting for Arizona Bettman was. That can be attributed to his stated comment that running out on a city would make it more difficult to get arenas built elsewhere (and there were 3 teams trying to get arenas at the time) and his unstated desire to not be proven wrong on something.

1) Yes I know you have your finger on the pulse of all things US. However, I was in NY when the Devils were negotiating with Nashville and expansion teams were awarded to several southern teams. Never once have I ever heard an American hockey fan from the north ever say "this southern expansion is great! The game is going to grow so much now!" it was more WTF?

2) Pronger is a good example. Before he was traded to Edmonton, St Louis gave him a choice of 5 different teams to go to. They were just dumping his contract because the team was for sale and had no money so no matter where he went it was going to be pennies on the dollar for them. He chose Edmonton. Now it didn't work out for him personally, and no one has ever spoken as to why but he said it was family related mostly centering around his wife. I am sure you heard the rumors so I'll leave it at that.

3) When has Winnipeg ever had a good team other than this past year? The original Jets were a bottom feeder. The Oilers pre-cap couldn't afford anybody and post-cap were run by Kevin Lowe. If this new admin gets them good you'll be seeing guys sign there. Calgary has been able to sign guys for years. They are a western team too, you don't mention them. Phoenix was at or above .500 their first 6 years in Arizona and made the playoffs 5 of those years. Yeah they got Sean Burke who was the 4th free agent goalie on the market that year and 5th overall if you include Mike Dunham who was on the trade block. As far as the Clippers go look how many of their star players have demanded out over the years. Danny Manning, Lamar Odom, Darius Miles, Elton Brand, Corey Magette, and Ron Harper. You also have Danny Ferry who played in Europe for a year before getting traded. How often do you see an american player sign in Italy when he was a first round pick in the NBA? What difference does it make that the Devils arena was located at the Meadowlands. The Mets play in Queens next to a freaking auto scrap yard, didn't stop them from getting big free agents. Its not like the players are housed in a dormitory next to the arenas. There are plenty of great places to live in Jersey, a lot of the Yankee players live there and if you play for the Devils or Nets you can live in Manhattan and easily commute. Speaking of the Nets look at how many guys they lost over the years. Derrick Coleman, Kenny Anderson, etc. You saw Carmelo refuse a trade there even when they were a season away from moving to Brooklyn.

4) If you asked Donald Fehr "if you could place the 30 NHL teams wherever you wanted in North America where would you put them." Do you really think there would be only 7 in Canada and we would have as many in the south as we currently do?

On your earlier point about MLS closing the gap with the NHL. Its not because the MLS is so much better at marketing, its because more people in the US have interest in soccer. US populations has grown just under 50% since 1980. A lot of that is due to immigration, and more of those immigrants come from places where soccer is big not places where hockey is big. Add to that soccer has been played in schools forever, whereas only a few schools play hockey in the US, a lot of kids who play hockey in school have to join teams outside of their school and therefore have to buy their own equipment, which they don't have to do for a sport sponsored by the school. NBC currently pays $200 million on average over 10 years on the NHL contract. The deal was signed with 24 NHL teams here including 1 in your precious Atlanta. They pay $125 million for the English Premier League who doesn't even play exhibition matches or do any substantial marketing here and thats expected to go up 40% after next season when the contract is up. The bottom line is other sports have a structural advantages in the US that the NHL will never be able to overcome.

 

[Major4Boarding]

I'm guessing that their old downtown arena still has ice facilities.

Doing a 1 year deal with Suns might be the easiest.

Coyotes might only be able to get sponsorship deals for boards and ice and any LED signage.

Not a good deal financially. But at least they could transfer local sponsors.

This is really the only short term solution. Play in downtown Phoenix for a year or 2.

Considering Disney's Frozen is already scheduled Jan 13th-18th, 2016 there yes, I'd say they still have ice facilities

 

[BattleBorn]

So to recap, we would rather have NHL franchises in cities that are completely indifferent to them and where they consequently lose tens of millions of dollars a year than in small Canadian cities that are crazy about hockey and where the teams are profitable, because the players are pampered millionaires and it is unreasonable to ask them to have to tolerate Edmonton, Winnipeg or Quebec City.

Unreal.

How many more small Canadian cities that are crazy about hockey and can support a professional hockey team do you have? By my count there's only one more, and they look to be on deck for a team.

I get the feeling that won't end this point in a debate, though.

 

[aqib]

It's not an opinion of hfboards or even just the NHL. Remember that Cleveland tourism prank from years back?

Yeah that was a parody video by a standup comic (who happened to be hooking up with a friend of mine at the time coincidently). Its not just Cleveland people act like that about any cold weather city. As if everyone in the north is either at sporting event or at home because there are no other options. You live in Canada, do you really just sit around day dreaming on nights when you aren't at a sporting event? As if cold weather cities don't have any other entertainment options. No concerts, no museums, no night life, no arts scene, no music scene, absolutely nothing else other than sporting events.

 

[ThisYearsModel]

Bettman has this crusade about warm weather USA franchises. I live in Southern California. The Ducks are now well-established because the team has seeded the area with support of youth and high school hockey. The game is thriving in CA. Not the same in AZ and FL. AZ will pick up with ASU going division 1, but not enough to overcome the NHL team being in Glendale. Tampa and the Panthers should both be relocated. Tampa looks OK now with the bandwagon fans because the team is good. The second they are not, that rink will be half empty again. There simply is no excuse for those 2 franchises to not be in Canada instead.

 

[Acesolid]

How many more small Canadian cities that are crazy about hockey and can support a professional hockey team do you have? By my count there's only one more, and they look to be on deck for a team.

I get the feeling that won't end this point in a debate, though.

On top of Quebec, I'd add Hamilton and Markham. Since in my opinion both could easily afford (and have an NHL ready arena in time for) an expansion team. And then make a profit with them. Unlike most "Southern experiment" money pits Bettman keeps propping up.

 

[aqib]

How many more small Canadian cities that are crazy about hockey and can support a professional hockey team do you have? By my count there's only one more, and they look to be on deck for a team.

I get the feeling that won't end this point in a debate, though.

Nobody has ever really argued for anyone other than QC and 1-2 in Southern Ontario. Some say either Hamilton or another GTA team and some say both. Its not like a lot of people are seriously arguing for more than 9-10.

 

[BattleBorn]

On top of Quebec, I'd add Hamilton and Markham. Since in my opinion both could easily afford (and have an NHL ready arena in time for) an expansion team. And then make a profit with them. Unlike most "Southern experiment" money pits Bettman keeps propping up.

And yet, if every team east of LA and south of St. Louis was eliminated, revenue sharing would remain the same by design, the money would just be going to different places. No matter what, teams in areas with less than 3 million households are going to be "propped up" by revenue sharing.

Why not put the money where it could possibly grow the game enough to gain relevancy in relation to the other three leagues?

Nobody is mad about revenue sharing, that's not changing, they're mad because the money goes to places they don't think should have teams.

 

[Melrose Munch]

First the PA wasn't fighting for Arizona Bettman was. That can be attributed to his stated comment that running out on a city would make it more difficult to get arenas built elsewhere (and there were 3 teams trying to get arenas at the time) and his unstated desire to not be proven wrong on something.

Has anyone in the PA besides Don come out and talk about mistakes the NHL has made? And why do you think that is? What is stopping them?

1) Yes I know you have your finger on the pulse of all things US. However, I was in NY when the Devils were negotiating with Nashville and expansion teams were awarded to several southern teams. Never once have I ever heard an American hockey fan from the north ever say "this southern expansion is great! The game is going to grow so much now!" it was more WTF?

I never said that I have my pulse on all things us, you need to stop with that as a talking point. Besides, I'm pretty sure most people wanted to keep the Devils in town. Was that best option? Well attendances ebbs and flows, and the response to the rock has been neutral. The Islanders will do better at Atlantic Terminal, you know that and I know that.

2) Pronger is a good example. Before he was traded to Edmonton, St Louis gave him a choice of 5 different teams to go to. They were just dumping his contract because the team was for sale and had no money so no matter where he went it was going to be pennies on the dollar for them. He chose Edmonton. Now it didn't work out for him personally, and no one has ever spoken as to why but he said it was family related mostly centering around his wife. I am sure you heard the rumors so I'll leave it at that.

Of course I did, I was 15 but I knew the game even then. You basically can say he made a mistake or his family didn't agree. It's the latter because Edmonton went to the cup.

3) When has Winnipeg ever had a good team other than this past year? The original Jets were a bottom feeder. The Oilers pre-cap couldn't afford anybody and post-cap were run by Kevin Lowe. If this new admin gets them good you'll be seeing guys sign there. Calgary has been able to sign guys for years. They are a western team too, you don't mention them. Phoenix was at or above .500 their first 6 years in Arizona and made the playoffs 5 of those years. Yeah they got Sean Burke who was the 4th free agent goalie on the market that year and 5th overall if you include Mike Dunham who was on the trade block. As far as the Clippers go look how many of their star players have demanded out over the years. Danny Manning, Lamar Odom, Darius Miles, Elton Brand, Corey Magette, and Ron Harper. You also have Danny Ferry who played in Europe for a year before getting traded. How often do you see an american player sign in Italy when he was a first round pick in the NBA? What difference does it make that the Devils arena was located at the Meadowlands. The Mets play in Queens next to a freaking auto scrap yard, didn't stop them from getting big free agents. Its not like the players are housed in a dormitory next to the arenas. There are plenty of great places to live in Jersey, a lot of the Yankee players live there and if you play for the Devils or Nets you can live in Manhattan and easily commute. Speaking of the Nets look at how many guys they lost over the years. Derrick Coleman, Kenny Anderson, etc. You saw Carmelo refuse a trade there even when they were a season away from moving to Brooklyn.

Excuses. The dollar was not bad for all the 90's. The Oilers traded for Corson and then he wanted the hell out not too long after. Cujo? Come on, it has been more then 25 years of ineptitude. In that time before the lockout, Toronto which was in the same country signed Mogilny, Roberts and Joseph. The Leafs have a much longer cup drought. You mention, Calgary, I didn't because their never on these lists. Why? Calgary is a much better city the Edmonton. Banff is much closer. Edmonton also has a crime problem Calgary does not. Edmonton is the most northern city with 1 million people. Come one something has to give. It's been 10 years since the Oilers did anything. And there is no indication McDavid won't run back to Toronto when he hits FA. Fact is the younger canadian guys have been running for canadian markets except Toronto and Vancouver, and now no Canadian team has won the cup in 22 years. That can't all be on just Gary Bettman. BOG and players own that. I'll say this quickly about the NBA. Brand and Miles got sick. Carmelo did not want to opt out of his contract.

4) If you asked Donald Fehr "if you could place the 30 NHL teams wherever you wanted in North America where would you put them." Do you really think there would be only 7 in Canada and we would have as many in the south as we currently do?

We would have more. And here's why: both the NHLPA membership and the NHL BOG have been paying lip service to the Canadian fans for 2 and a half decades. That's been my point all along. They probably should have kept Atlanta and moved the coyotes to Winnipeg, but they had little options.

On your earlier point about MLS closing the gap with the NHL. Its not because the MLS is so much better at marketing, its because more people in the US have interest in soccer. US populations has grown just under 50% since 1980. A lot of that is due to immigration, and more of those immigrants come from places where soccer is big not places where hockey is big. Add to that soccer has been played in schools forever, whereas only a few schools play hockey in the US, a lot of kids who play hockey in school have to join teams outside of their school and therefore have to buy their own equipment, which they don't have to do for a sport sponsored by the school. NBC currently pays $200 million on average over 10 years on the NHL contract. The deal was signed with 24 NHL teams here including 1 in your precious Atlanta. They pay $125 million for the English Premier League who doesn't even play exhibition matches or do any substantial marketing here and thats expected to go up 40% after next season when the contract is up. The bottom line is other sports have a structural advantages in the US that the NHL will never be able to overcome.

I'll agree and I'll add this. The NHL will find it's self fighting NASCAR for number six if it keeps having blow ups like the Coyotes during the league finals. Just embarrassing all around not matter what side you're on.

 

[Acesolid]

And yet, if every team east of LA and south of St. Louis was eliminated, revenue sharing would remain the same by design, the money would just be going to different places. No matter what, teams in areas with less than 3 million households are going to be "propped up" by revenue sharing.

Why not put the money where it could possibly grow the game enough to gain relevancy in relation to the other three leagues?

That's simply not true in term of serving hockey fans.

It hurts everytime I see a nearly empty NHL arena, when there could be a full one instead in Canada!

 

[Melrose Munch]

So to recap, we would rather have NHL franchises in cities that are completely indifferent to them and where they consequently lose tens of millions of dollars a year than in small Canadian cities that are crazy about hockey and where the teams are profitable, because the players are pampered millionaires and it is unreasonable to ask them to have to tolerate Edmonton, Winnipeg or Quebec City.

Unreal.

What are they supposed to do? Is Bettman supposed to force these guys to play there. It's been two decades without the cup, why do you think that is?

Yeah that was a parody video by a standup comic (who happened to be hooking up with a friend of mine at the time coincidently). Its not just Cleveland people act like that about any cold weather city. As if everyone in the north is either at sporting event or at home because there are no other options. You live in Canada, do you really just sit around day dreaming on nights when you aren't at a sporting event? As if cold weather cities don't have any other entertainment options. No concerts, no museums, no night life, no arts scene, no music scene, absolutely nothing else other than sporting events.

Right now I'm in the Inland Empire section of Greater LA visiting family but I live outside Toronto for sometime every summer. No I don't. But here's the thing. You group all these teams together. Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver are just simply on a differently level. Those place get or used to get FAs. I bet Toronto will again now that the management has been cleaned up. Edmonton has never been on Toronto's level as a city and unfortunately that's a big factor.

Bettman has this crusade about warm weather USA franchises. I live in Southern California. The Ducks are now well-established because the team has seeded the area with support of youth and high school hockey. The game is thriving in CA. Not the same in AZ and FL. AZ will pick up with ASU going division 1, but not enough to overcome the NHL team being in Glendale. Tampa and the Panthers should both be relocated. Tampa looks OK now with the bandwagon fans because the team is good. The second they are not, that rink will be half empty again. There simply is no excuse for those 2 franchises to not be in Canada instead.

You guys and the Ducks have won cups. So did Tampa. Hell the NFL has three teams fighting to get back into greater LA.

 

[Jeffrey93]

How many more small Canadian cities that are crazy about hockey and can support a professional hockey team do you have? By my count there's only one more, and they look to be on deck for a team.

I get the feeling that won't end this point in a debate, though.

Quebec City, Hamilton, Toronto 2.

However, it would most likely be the 2nd or the 3rd....not both.

So two.

 

[xtra]

Considering Disney's Frozen is already scheduled Jan 13th-18th, 2016 there yes, I'd say they still have ice facilities

to be fair, princess elsa could just make enough ice for the show and then let it melt after that

 

[BattleBorn]

That's simply not true in term of serving hockey fans.

It hurts everytime I see a nearly empty NHL arena, when there could be a full one instead in Canada!

Why does it hurt you at all? If it's an emotional reaction to seeing your sport unappreciated I get it and that's fine. However, it makes zero difference to anyone other than the team, fans, and ownership of the team with the empty arena. I'll call this Phoenix thing an exception to the rule since it's so nasty, but if Dallas is playing to a half full arena why does it bother you at all? Because it would be full if it was in Halifax?

 

[Jeffrey93]

That's simply not true in term of serving hockey fans.

It hurts everytime I see a nearly empty NHL arena, when there could be a full one instead in Canada!

Doesn't even have to be in Canada....if Portland will sellout every night, get a team in there. If Houston will....get a team there.

I'd like to see a team in Hamilton....but at the end of the day, I want to see teams in places where fans go and care about it. Doesn't have to be in Canada.

 

[gstommylee]

This is really the only short term solution. Play in downtown Phoenix for a year or 2.

In an arena that isn't design for a hockey team?

 

[Jeffrey93]

Why does it hurt you at all? If it's an emotional reaction to seeing your sport unappreciated I get it and that's fine. However, it makes zero difference to anyone other than the team, fans, and ownership of the team with the empty arena. I'll call this Phoenix thing an exception to the rule since it's so nasty, but if Dallas is playing to a half full arena, why does it bother you at all? Because it would be full if it was in Halifax?

Empty rinks hurt the entire league.

 

[sandysan]

So to recap, we would rather have NHL franchises in cities that are completely indifferent to them and where they consequently lose tens of millions of dollars a year than in small Canadian cities that are crazy about hockey and where the teams are profitable, because the players are pampered millionaires and it is unreasonable to ask them to have to tolerate Edmonton, Winnipeg or Quebec City.

Unreal.

don't forget he spectre of " the nba-esque" TV deal that will never materialize as the teams do exactly ZERO to "grow the game"

but aside from that, that pretty much encapsulates the argument that having a ton of people who dont give a crap about hockey in non traditional markets is some sort of golden treasure that must be catered to.

ROI be damned.

 

[patnyrnyg]

That's simply not true in term of serving hockey fans.

It hurts everytime I see a nearly empty NHL arena, when there could be a full one instead in Canada!

Ottawa is certainly not full every game. Secondly, how many more cities in Canada can sell out every night? Quebec City is one, any others?