NHL Expansion back on agenda?

[StreetHawk]

Arizona, as you said, already has a hockey culture, but I would also say it's hard to ignore Houston, it being the largest market without a NHL franchise. I think the league wants *both* HOU and ARI, but I also think Fertitta's hemming and hawing about the fee is part of what spawned this. Make no mistake, the league will go back to Phoenix, but I think they're being used right now to leverage Fertitta to shut up and pay.

Realistically, the 2 NBA owners IMO will decide the NHL in both markets. All of those years of AZ not being able to get something done in their desired location, I don't see an NHL team getting their own arena. I think it's got to be shared with the NBA team. Suns are only into year 3 of their 15 year lease extension at Footprint this season.

So, the NHL needs Ishbia to pay their price. Same as they need Fertitta to as well in Houston.

These are both large markets. It's the reality of trying to get into a market with an NBA team. If the NBA owner doesn't play ball ala Smith in Utah, then the circumstances need to be right for someone to want to do what the ATL groups are doing.

 

[Tawnos]

Realistically, the 2 NBA owners IMO will decide the NHL in both markets. All of those years of AZ not being able to get something done in their desired location, I don't see an NHL team getting their own arena. I think it's got to be shared with the NBA team. Suns are only into year 3 of their 15 year lease extension at Footprint this season.

So, the NHL needs Ishbia to pay their price. Same as they need Fertitta to as well in Houston.

These are both large markets. It's the reality of trying to get into a market with an NBA team. If the NBA owner doesn't play ball ala Smith in Utah, then the circumstances need to be right for someone to want to do what the ATL groups are doing.

I fully agree with this take, other than feeling like the 15 year lease extension isn't really a barrier to total renovation.

 

[StreetHawk]

Ok then if team 36 is in the West, who is it? In that same podcast, Frank said he doesn't see Portland or KC as possibilities.

For the NHL, if AZ returns, that only leaves the NHL with 11 teams in the PST and MST time zones. So, if the plan is to ultimately get to 36 teams and do 6x6, one division is going to need a CST time zone club to play with the MST clubs.

Van, Sea, SJ, LA, Ana, LV are full time PST
AZ (PST til we fall back and spring ahead. But, most of the season are in MST), Edm, Cal, Utah, Col are the other MST. So, would have to pull one of Win, Min, STL (since you wouldn't separate Dal/Hou) would have to slide into that "midwest" division.

Only Portland, SD really make sense time zone. I don't think the NHL eyes Sacramento.

Portland, still operated by Jody Allen and the city and team are discussing a large renovation to the soon to be 30 year old arena. Jody isn't adding an NHL team to the sports portfolio, so the longer she holds onto the Blazers, then an NHL team won't be going to Portland.

I fully agree with this take, other than feeling like the 15 year lease extension isn't really a barrier to total renovation.

They don't have to wait until 2035 to either do a renovation (which would be really expensive for structural changes) or break ground on a new arena. But, for the city, I don't think there is a rush to do anything until they get into the 2030's. So, 5 years is really too optimistic IMO.

PHX has the Diamondbacks to deal with as well.

 

[Tawnos]

They don't have to wait until 2035 to either do a renovation (which would be really expensive for structural changes) or break ground on a new arena. But, for the city, I don't think there is a rush to do anything until they get into the 2030's. So, 5 years is really too optimistic IMO.

PHX has the Diamondbacks to deal with as well.

Similar to Smith in SLC, it feels to me like Ishbia has a good enough relationship with the city where he'd be able to get them on board with the idea, if he he wants to do it. Obviously, hammering out the actual details of a project like that would be a process, but I think they'd get it done if it was something Ishbia wanted.

 

[dj4aces]

36 doesn't have to be in the east. If it's a western team, Nashville would join the eastern conference. Something I'm sure they're very interested in doing, especially with a potential Atlanta rivalry.

This is the most likely scenario for expansion to 36, but I also feel like Nashville would have to be amenable to moving to the Eastern conference to make that happen. It might be an easier sell for Nashville to go east than it was for Detroit and Columbus to go west, so there's that at least.

Realistically, the 2 NBA owners IMO will decide the NHL in both markets. All of those years of AZ not being able to get something done in their desired location, I don't see an NHL team getting their own arena. I think it's got to be shared with the NBA team. Suns are only into year 3 of their 15 year lease extension at Footprint this season.

So, the NHL needs Ishbia to pay their price. Same as they need Fertitta to as well in Houston.

These are both large markets. It's the reality of trying to get into a market with an NBA team. If the NBA owner doesn't play ball ala Smith in Utah, then the circumstances need to be right for someone to want to do what the ATL groups are doing.

Houston almost certainly has to go through Fertitta, but Phoenix doesn't really have the same issue. An enterprising owner could build a place in another part of the city, or out in Tempe like Meruelo failed to do, and get a team back in the market that way.

You're likely correct that Ishbia and Fertitta hold all the cards when it comes to hockey returning to those markets, but never count anyone out.

 

[TheLegend]

lol and where's the building for said team Frank.

Three letters come to mind..... ASU.

Arizona State is in dire need of a new arena for basketball. They aren't really subject to local initiatives although they have a Board of Regents they have to answer to.

They've already shown they're willing to work with an NHL team (twice)..... if the conditions are right.

AND they have the available space. It's far enough away from Sky Harbor Airport to quash any attempt by Phoenix to leverage the airport against it.

There's already a precedence of this kind of arrangement with Carolina and NC State.

Who's gonna pay for that renovation for footprint since its not going to involve government funds.

Footprint would be irrelevant in my scenario above.

IIRC,,, ASU already has built in tax deferments.



However with all that said..... You still need a group still willing to put up the money.... for an arena in part AND the expansion fee. And the usual political connections.

 

[TheLegend]

Similar to Smith in SLC, it feels to me like Ishbia has a good enough relationship with the city where he'd be able to get them on board with the idea, if he he wants to do it. Obviously, hammering out the actual details of a project like that would be a process, but I think they'd get it done if it was something Ishbia wanted.

Ishiba's not going to pay the current expansion price for an NHL franchise though. At least that's the current sentiment here locally.

 

[StreetHawk]

This is the most likely scenario for expansion to 36, but I also feel like Nashville would have to be amenable to moving to the Eastern conference to make that happen. It might be an easier sell for Nashville to go east than it was for Detroit and Columbus to go west, so there's that at least.

Houston almost certainly has to go through Fertitta, but Phoenix doesn't really have the same issue. An enterprising owner could build a place in another part of the city, or out in Tempe like Meruelo failed to do, and get a team back in the market that way.

You're likely correct that Ishbia and Fertitta hold all the cards when it comes to hockey returning to those markets, but never count anyone out.

Will all of the troubles Coyotes owners have had getting an arena in the Tempe/Scottsdale area over the quarter century they were there, I just don't see an NHL team getting their own arena.

 

[sneakytitz]

Ishiba's not going to pay the current expansion price for an NHL franchise though. At least that's the current sentiment here locally.

Is Footprint a viable host for another 10-15 years? Looks like the hockey capacity would be just behind the Devils' arena and ahead of Winnipeg.

 

[Tawnos]

Ishiba's not going to pay the current expansion price for an NHL franchise though. At least that's the current sentiment here locally.

I wouldn't be surprised if that were true. It's definitely the more likely barrier than potential renovations at Footprint, IMO.

 

[TheLegend]

Is Footprint a viable host for another 10-15 years? Looks like the hockey capacity would be just behind the Devils' arena and ahead of Winnipeg.

Ice system was ripped out with the last renovation. IIRC to make it viable long term for hockey it would require a major structural shift in the layout. Almost cheaper to just build a new barn

 

[StreetHawk]

Is Footprint a viable host for another 10-15 years? Looks like the hockey capacity would be just behind the Devils' arena and ahead of Winnipeg.

Footprint sightlines remains the same as when the Coyotes were last there in the very early 2000's. The renovation only modernized the arena. Didn't do what Smith is planning for the Delta Center in SLC.

To host hockey in Phoenix, they'd need a new arena or have to spend $200 mill to alter the structure of the arena. Before the renovation, the city of Phx offered to contribute to a new building (tear and rebuild on existing site) if both clubs would share. Suns had control over the arena so were not going to give up half to the coyotes and the Coyotes, it wouldn't make financial sense to be a tenant only.

Lease with the suns runs to 2037. But, they don't need to wait until the last minute to begin. But, that lease also gives the city some runway to negotiate. If Ishiba won't pay for an NHL team, the city likely pushes for a reno vs a new build. But, who knows what the next trendy arena money maker is going to be in 10-12 years from now.

 

[dj4aces]

Will all of the troubles Coyotes owners have had getting an arena in the Tempe/Scottsdale area over the quarter century they were there, I just don't see an NHL team getting their own arena.

And I don't see another round of renovations taking place at Footprint anytime soon. So, if the five year timeframe being pushed by Seravelli is serious, they need a new barn in a more favorable location. Otherwise, I stand by my feeling that Phoenix is just being used as leverage to pull Fertitta across the finish line.

 

[StreetHawk]

And I don't see another round of renovations taking place at Footprint anytime soon. So, if the five year timeframe being pushed by Seravelli is serious, they need a new barn in a more favorable location. Otherwise, I stand by my feeling that Phoenix is just being used as leverage to pull Fertitta across the finish line.

I don't see Tempe/Scottsdale or other location handing a sweetheart deal to an NHL club like Glendale did. So, the 5 years seems unlikely unless it's a lot of private money. Again, still believe NHL returning to AZ hinges on Ishiba's interests in a team.

 

[sneakytitz]

And I don't see another round of renovations taking place at Footprint anytime soon. So, if the five year timeframe being pushed by Seravelli is serious, they need a new barn in a more favorable location. Otherwise, I stand by my feeling that Phoenix is just being used as leverage to pull Fertitta across the finish line.

Would be funny if Mat and Tillman are in contact. "You won't believe the shit they told me today."

 

[StreetHawk]

Would be funny if Mat and Tillman are in contact. "You won't believe the shit they told me today."

Why not,... They are both NBA owners, so they are at the very least aware of the other. Barring a NDA that they've signed with the NHL, no reason that they can't talk to the other.

But, they may very well be in competition with each other to join in around when ATL does. So, they may not be that buddy buddy with the info they currently have.

 

[LadyStanley]

To reiterate:

Expansion not discussed at today's BOG meeting.

 

[mouser]

The time zone issue was never about crossing over a single time zone.

Yup, the Chicago Blackhawks would happily switch to the eastern conference if given the option.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

To reiterate:

Expansion not discussed at today's BOG meeting.

Just delaying the inevitable. LeBrun in the Athletic:

“The topic never came up today in any form,” he said. “Not in any form.”

So where does it sit?

“No different than the last time I answered the question,” Bettman said. “There are a number of places that have expressed interest, that talk to us, some on a regular basis, but that’s where we are.”

Believe me when I say expansion is eventually coming to Atlanta and maybe Houston, and don’t forget a return to Arizona one day, too. But not quite yet.

 

[Tawnos]

Yup, the Chicago Blackhawks would happily switch to the eastern conference if given the option.

Nashville and Chicago (in that order) are the two CTZ teams furthest east. The thing is, Chicago at least has a couple of regional rivals in their division with Minnesota and St Louis. Nashville doesn't really have that, despite being about the same distance from St Louis. They would with Atlanta in the league and would probably get a pretty good thing going with Carolina too.

 

[nhlfan79]

Nashville and Chicago (in that order) are the two CTZ teams furthest east. The thing is, Chicago at least has a couple of regional rivals in their division with Minnesota and St Louis. Nashville doesn't really have that, despite being about the same distance from St Louis. They would with Atlanta in the league and would probably get a pretty good thing going with Carolina too.

That was always one of my frustrations during the Thrashers 1.0 era. Nashville would have been a great regional rivalry. It's an easy 3.5 hour drive, and many fans would have made the trip in both directions if they played more than once a season in each building. The time zone thing is silly, as Atlanta's on the very western edge of the ETZ and Nashville's right on the eastern edge of the CTZ.

Because we hardly ever played them, no rivalry was created. Carolina, I guess, was kinda a rivalry, but that's six hours away, and it's just not the same thing. The Florida teams were even further, as was Washington, obviously. The old Southeast Division was pretty uninteresting at that time.

 

[StreetHawk]

Yup, the Chicago Blackhawks would happily switch to the eastern conference if given the option.

Any move to the East for a CST team really comes down to who gets that #4 Expansion spot as we do expect ATL, Hou, AZ to get 3 of them to get to 35 teams. NHL would be short 1 team in the PST/MST if the desire is to go 6x6 vs 4x9. You'd be asking one of Win, Min, StL most likely to slide over in a 6x6 setup.

It probably does make more sense to send Nash over if you buildup the southeast with ATL, Car, TB, Fla and slide in Nash and probably pull down Wash like they did before.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

I'll bet you any amount of money that both Nashville and Chicago would gleefully accept realignment into the Eastern conference.

Speaking about Chicago in particular, yes... we have rivalries with the likes of St. Louis and Minnesota, but I think borderline everyone in the fanbase would chuck those rivalries into a river if it meant reigniting the rivalry with Detroit, not to mention maybe being in the same division as Boston, Toronto, and Montreal. No offense to Colorado and Utah, but those are bigger marquee matchups any day of the week assuming all other things are equal.

That being said though, Chicago has a big diaspora across the country, and as such is a pretty noticeable road draw for a load of the West, the former Yotes particularly, so it's probably in the West's best interest to keep at least one O6 draw, as loathe as I know many are to highlighting that as important in any way, shape, or form.

 

[dj4aces]

Speaking about Chicago in particular, yes... we have rivalries with the likes of St. Louis and Minnesota, but I think borderline everyone in the fanbase would chuck those rivalries into a river if it meant reigniting the rivalry with Detroit, not to mention maybe being in the same division as Boston, Toronto, and Montreal. No offense to Colorado and Utah, but those are bigger marquee matchups any day of the week assuming all other things are equal.

Oh, without a doubt. As a Detroit fan, the Blackhawks are a team we love to hate, and have always done so. Adopting "Chelsea Dagger" as the goal song just made it even easier to do so!

But I think the biggest issue, especially with expansion coming soon, is scheduling. This is a challenge the league will need to tackle when it comes to realignment as well. Seeing every team in the barn at least once a year is all well and good, but getting to 34 or 36 is gonna make it more challenging to maintain that schedule while also keeping the number of games per season at 82. So either the NHLPA accepts more games played, or the league goes to the drawing board to sort a new schedule format. Or maybe both?

Hell, who knows? Maybe that's the hold up with expansion and one reason why the CBA keeps coming up. IIRC, the number of games is a part of that.

 

[StreetHawk]

Oh, without a doubt. As a Detroit fan, the Blackhawks are a team we love to hate, and have always done so. Adopting "Chelsea Dagger" as the goal song just made it even easier to do so!

But I think the biggest issue, especially with expansion coming soon, is scheduling. This is a challenge the league will need to tackle when it comes to realignment as well. Seeing every team in the barn at least once a year is all well and good, but getting to 34 or 36 is gonna make it more challenging to maintain that schedule while also keeping the number of games per season at 82. So either the NHLPA accepts more games played, or the league goes to the drawing board to sort a new schedule format. Or maybe both?

Hell, who knows? Maybe that's the hold up with expansion and one reason why the CBA keeps coming up. IIRC, the number of games is a part of that.

We don't need more regular season games. Let's assume 36 teams is the target. And they do go to 6x6. So, 60 games for home and home with the 30 other clubs. Leaves 22 (or maybe they cut to 80 even) if they decide to do play in games or increase PO teams from 16 to 20. But, 5 clubs for the final 20 games in division is 4 games each or upwards of 5 with 2 of those 5 if we stay at 82 games.

We have to see where team 36 lands. But, I hope the PA doesn't accept more games in regular season. For MLB, NBA, NHL, more is not good. NFL, I get it to swap all pre-season to get 18 regular season games.