OT: NFL/Patriots 2016 Thread - 10-2

[Spoked-B]

My only disappointment in this trade is that BB didn't use Collins as the centerpiece in a package to trade for Trouba or Fowler

(In Bill We Trust ... I think he's earned as much, no?)

 

[Johnnyduke]

That's the thing about BB: he'll say all the right things when you're going out the door and will never bad mouth you openly, but his actions speak otherwise, generally. It's clear he was going to move on from the player.

Which is fine. I just think they should have moved on after the year. We'll see what happens.

 

[JRull86]

Which is fine. I just think they should have moved on after the year. We'll see what happens.

Obviously when you jettison a player during the season and get draft capital back, you get worse on the field. That being said, Collins has been a disappointment this year. That coupled with the contract stuff (he's out to lunch if he thinks he deserves Von Miller money), I could absolutely see this turing into a Adalius Thomas type disgruntled situation in the locker room.

They have options, obviously none of whom are as good talent wise as Collins, in Van Noy and Elandon Roberts, and an absolute wild card in Mingo, who definitely has the raw ability, but hasn't been able to be consistent enough in his career as of yet.

I'm not as doom and gloom as some when it comes to moves teams make, especially the Patriotas, but it's definitely worth criticizing because the talent of Collins is there, and we've seen it on display many times. But when he's seemingly unengaged, or kind of "freeforming" on defense, it doesn't benefit the team whatsoever. Guess we'll see.

 

[Seidenbergy]

Compensatory picks fall in the same range (end of the round) in each year, so there's no real draft slot value taking it this year vs next year.

What?!?

If someone, day of draft, trades a 2nd round pick in said draft, they either get back a first rounder in the following draft, or a significant number of same or better draft picks. There is almost a full round of value.....sometimes more....in trading to move up a year.

Just to put this in perspective -- the Pats got a 5th round pick from Denver for AJ Derby. Depending on where Denver finishes and whether Clevelend ends up getting a 3rd round comp pick, there's a chance those two picks are less than 30 slots apart

The only way those picks are less than 30 apart is if Cleveland does not get awarded a 3rd round comp pick and somehow goes on to win the rest of their games this season and Denver would have to pretty much lose the rest of their games this season. Even then, you're looking at a tiny chance.

 

[Ten Thousand Hours]

Unless they feel around the 4th round of this years draft is loaded with prospects at an area of need, I don't see that value. Compensatory picks fall in the same range (end of the round) in each year, so there's no real draft slot value taking it this year vs next year.

Just to put this in perspective -- the Pats got a 5th round pick from Denver for AJ Derby. Depending on where Denver finishes and whether Clevelend ends up getting a 3rd round comp pick, there's a chance those two picks are less than 30 slots apart

It's a great draft for cornerbacks, but I doubt that factored in. I think we'll draft a corner before the 4th.

 

[Mr. Make-Believe]

...

As a Browns fan, I am pleasantly shocked at this news. He's a massive boost to our lineup.

 

[Seidenbergy]

...

As a Browns fan, I am pleasantly shocked at this news. He's a massive boost to our lineup.

At best, all he can do is screw the Browns out of the #1 overall pick this season.

 

[Bearclaw]

...

As a Browns fan, I am pleasantly shocked at this news. He's a massive boost to our lineup.

Ha, I'm a Browns fan too. This is huge for our hilariously awful D. Just need to lock him up (or franchise him until we can tie him to a chair, drug him, and make him sign a deal while unconscious ).

 

[Ten Thousand Hours]

At best, all he can do is screw the Browns out of the #1 overall pick this season.

Wouldn't best case be he aces his audition and stays on long term, teaming up with Myles Garrett to turn that defense around?

 

[riverhawkey91]

That's the thing about BB: he'll say all the right things when you're going out the door and will never bad mouth you openly, but his actions speak otherwise, generally. It's clear he was going to move on from the player.

Yep...it got lost at the end of the old thread, but I mentioned in my original reply that I had no issue with moving on from Collins, especially with everything that's come out since regarding his play. My issue is just with the value of the return being no where near where it should have been.

What?!?

If someone, day of draft, trades a 2nd round pick in said draft, they either get back a first rounder in the following draft, or a significant number of same or better draft picks. There is almost a full round of value.....sometimes more....in trading to move up a year.


The only way those picks are less than 30 apart is if Cleveland does not get awarded a 3rd round comp pick and somehow goes on to win the rest of their games this season and Denver would have to pretty much lose the rest of their games this season. Even then, you're looking at a tiny chance.

You're getting mixed up between regular draft picks and compensatory picks. Compensatory picks are always at the end of whatever round the pick is. What you said definitely applies to regular picks, but that isn't applicable to compensatory ones. There is no difference between a 3rd round comp pick this year and a 3rd round comp pick next year, they're both pick 95-100.

edit - whoops, I just noticed the 4th is regular, not compensatory. You're right then, it wouldn't be at the end of the round, it'd be at the beginning, so it'll be no where near Denver's 5th.

My point still remains though. The best the Pats will ever get out of this deal is the probable same 3rd round compensatory pick they would have gotten if Collins walked, only possibly a year earlier. They basically traded half a season + playoffs of Collins to get the same pick this year instead of next, which to me is terrible value, especially when taking into account that the pick could actually be worse than if they just kept him and let him walk.

 

[BigGoalBrad]

Whoaaaaaaaa.

Belichick only has 1 Super Bowl win in the last decade 9/10 of the other years we didn't win despite having Brady for all but 1 so I know he is the greatest but this feels like the Pats are being far too arrogant similar to the Bruins when Seguin was moved.

The off field locker room aspect of this isn't positive either. Even if he was being a distraction with the contract stuff this is a loud and clear message to every member of the defense that we are NOT going to take care of you when your time comes. Chandler Jones and Jamie Collins out because we didn't want to pay them sends a really bad message in terms of morale everyone on the team now knows they aren't getting paid.

We can't keep doing this to everybody.

Wonder if this has anything to do with ownership. Football ops makes moves like these whenever a guy performs so well that his next contract will be a monster one that probably isn't a good idea.



Im the Van Noy fan though so Kyle Van Noy step on up!

 

[jgatie]

Whoaaaaaaaa.

Belichick only has 1 Super Bowl win in the last decade 9/10 of the other years we didn't win despite having Brady for all but 1 so I know he is the greatest but this feels like the Pats are being far too arrogant similar to the Bruins when Seguin was moved.

The off field locker room aspect of this isn't positive either. Even if he was being a distraction with the contract stuff this is a loud and clear message to every member of the defense that we are NOT going to take care of you when your time comes. Chandler Jones and Jamie Collins out because we didn't want to pay them sends a really bad message in terms of morale everyone on the team now knows they aren't getting paid.

We can't keep doing this to everybody.

Wonder if this has anything to do with ownership. Football ops makes moves like these whenever a guy performs so well that his next contract will be a monster one that probably isn't a good idea.



Im the Van Noy fan though so Kyle Van Noy step on up!

1) Collins has not been performing that well this year.

2) Do you really think Chandler "Naked and high on spice at the Police Station" Jones traded simply because "we didn't want to pay him"?

 

[DangleCity]

Whoaaaaaaaa.

Belichick only has 1 Super Bowl win in the last decade 9/10 of the other years we didn't win despite having Brady for all but 1 so I know he is the greatest but this feels like the Pats are being far too arrogant similar to the Bruins when Seguin was moved.

The off field locker room aspect of this isn't positive either. Even if he was being a distraction with the contract stuff this is a loud and clear message to every member of the defense that we are NOT going to take care of you when your time comes. Chandler Jones and Jamie Collins out because we didn't want to pay them sends a really bad message in terms of morale everyone on the team now knows they aren't getting paid.

We can't keep doing this to everybody.

Wonder if this has anything to do with ownership. Football ops makes moves like these whenever a guy performs so well that his next contract will be a monster one that probably isn't a good idea.



Im the Van Noy fan though so Kyle Van Noy step on up!

They've taken care of players they wanted to keep and thought deserved it. Gronk, McCourty, Ghost, all top of the market deals at the time they signed.

 

[BigGoalBrad]

1) Collins has not been performing that well this year.

2) Do you really think Chandler "Naked and high on spice at the Police Station" Jones was let go simply because "we didn't want to pay him"?

Once players get good any deal is going to be too much. They played their way into big money territory and are now gone.

Noone on the team can have any faith in being rewarded. Even the QB isn't in the top 10 of NFL contracts and hes greatest of all time and deserves 100 mil a year.


I know Collins play hasn't been great this year. But I'd bench him and only bring him in on third downs or something to that effect before this. Or tell him hes going on IR for whatever injury he has they all have something they have to deal with.


Ownership gets a pass as always imagine if it was Jacobs who owned the Pats.

Could very well mark a turning point in ex players only saying good things about us.

 

[JRull86]

Whoaaaaaaaa.

Belichick only has 1 Super Bowl win in the last decade 9/10 of the other years we didn't win despite having Brady for all but 1 so I know he is the greatest but this feels like the Pats are being far too arrogant similar to the Bruins when Seguin was moved.

The off field locker room aspect of this isn't positive either. Even if he was being a distraction with the contract stuff this is a loud and clear message to every member of the defense that we are NOT going to take care of you when your time comes. Chandler Jones and Jamie Collins out because we didn't want to pay them sends a really bad message in terms of morale everyone on the team now knows they aren't getting paid.

We can't keep doing this to everybody.

Wonder if this has anything to do with ownership. Football ops makes moves like these whenever a guy performs so well that his next contract will be a monster one that probably isn't a good idea.



Im the Van Noy fan though so Kyle Van Noy step on up!

Most of this is just a complete overreaction.

Every single one of those players in the locker room understand that football is a business first and foremost. Every. Single. One.

I doubt any player in that locker room is waking up today and hearing the news and assuming that they're going to be traded or not re-signed. McCourty signed an above market deal. Why? Because they valued what he brought to the team for what he commanded monetarily. Wilfork always seemingly had contract problems but they always worked them out. Why? Because they valued what he brought to the team.

This entire thing boils down to the fact that Belichik and Co., saw what Chandler Jones and Jamie Collins brought to the team, and decided that they wouldn't be worth their potential salary.

 

[Mr. Make-Believe]

At best, all he can do is screw the Browns out of the #1 overall pick this season.

**** the #1 pick. I want my team to win.

I think Collins could be part of the solution. And that makes me happy.

 

[BigGoalBrad]

They've taken care of players they wanted to keep and thought deserved it. Gronk, McCourty, Ghost, all top of the market deals at the time they signed.

You mentioned 3 guys over a 4 year period one of them is the greatest of all time at his position and is ready for a new deal. One guy on offense one on D. Over a few years. While getting the best QB of all time at a bargain rate. Only one isn't a white guy. Kraft charges highest ticket prices in the NFL.

Of course the team and ownership LOVE being able to sign the likes of Edelman and Ninkovich to long term team friendly deals when they can. While free agents and rookies don't really count or factor in.

There is always a rookie or an underachieving vet ready to step in and do the job for cheaper.


Not even sure we are wrong what this is is the team flat out refusing to give out that one bad contract that everyone could have pointed to going forward. Just saying I think we have sent the wrong message with the team on top of the NFL at the moment.


Again though the funniest part is the owner gets to pocket an extra 50-100 mil in real dollars if not more when signing bonuses come into account and gets a total pass.

Today we became the Sinden Bruins/Charles Finley A's officially.

 

[jgatie]

Once players get good any deal is going to be too much. They played their way into big money territory and are now gone.

Noone on the team can have any faith in being rewarded. Even the QB isn't in the top 10 of NFL contracts and hes greatest of all time and deserves 100 mil a year.


I know Collins play hasn't been great this year. But I'd bench him and only bring him in on third downs or something to that effect before this. Or tell him hes going on IR for whatever injury he has they all have something they have to deal with.


Ownership gets a pass as always imagine if it was Jacobs who owned the Pats.

Could very well mark a turning point in ex players only saying good things about us.

Every Patriot player for the last 15 years should know their "reward" is a ring. Outside of a choice few, if they then want to cash in for a big paycheck, they can be traded or sign somewhere else, where they can play like crap and cost another team big bucks. If any player is playing for anything but a ring, they can go sooner rather than later.

 

[Mr. Make-Believe]

Ha, I'm a Browns fan too. This is huge for our hilariously awful D. Just need to lock him up (or franchise him until we can tie him to a chair, drug him, and make him sign a deal while unconscious ).

I actually see a lot of optimism with the current management group. I hope he does too. Despite being 0-8, I've seen a lot more competitive team certainly at least compared to last season.

Just keep this crew around...

 

[BigGoalBrad]

I hope every member on the team who is set to become a free agent gets a promise from Bill or Bob of no franchise tag if we win the Super Bowl.


Win it all and don't tag Malcolm or Donte HIghtower and this won't be a big deal.

 

[JRull86]

You mentioned 3 guys over a 4 year period one of them is the greatest of all time at his position and is ready for a new deal. One guy on offense one on D. Over a few years. While getting the best QB of all time at a bargain rate. Only one isn't a white guy. Kraft charges highest ticket prices in the NFL.

Of course the team and ownership LOVE being able to sign the likes of Edelman and Ninkovich to long term team friendly deals when they can. While free agents and rookies don't really count or factor in.

There is always a rookie or an underachieving vet ready to step in and do the job for cheaper.


Not even sure we are wrong what this is is the team flat out refusing to give out that one bad contract that everyone could have pointed to going forward. Just saying I think we have sent the wrong message with the team on top of the NFL at the moment.


Again though the funniest part is the owner gets to pocket an extra 50-100 mil in real dollars if not more when signing bonuses come into account and gets a total pass.

Today we became the Sinden Bruins/Charles Finley A's officially.

 

[Donnie Shulzhoffer]

You mentioned 3 guys over a 4 year period one of them is the greatest of all time at his position and is ready for a new deal. One guy on offense one on D. Over a few years. While getting the best QB of all time at a bargain rate. Only one isn't a white guy. Kraft charges highest ticket prices in the NFL.

Of course the team and ownership LOVE being able to sign the likes of Edelman and Ninkovich to long term team friendly deals when they can. While free agents and rookies don't really count or factor in.

There is always a rookie or an underachieving vet ready to step in and do the job for cheaper.


Not even sure we are wrong what this is is the team flat out refusing to give out that one bad contract that everyone could have pointed to going forward. Just saying I think we have sent the wrong message with the team on top of the NFL at the moment.


Again though the funniest part is the owner gets to pocket an extra 50-100 mil in real dollars if not more when signing bonuses come into account and gets a total pass.

Today we became the Sinden Bruins/Charles Finley A's officially.

Total innuendo and you are comparing apples to oranges.

 

[jgatie]

You mentioned 3 guys over a 4 year period one of them is the greatest of all time at his position and is ready for a new deal. One guy on offense one on D. Over a few years. While getting the best QB of all time at a bargain rate. Only one isn't a white guy. Kraft charges highest ticket prices in the NFL.

Of course the team and ownership LOVE being able to sign the likes of Edelman and Ninkovich to long term team friendly deals when they can. While free agents and rookies don't really count or factor in.

There is always a rookie or an underachieving vet ready to step in and do the job for cheaper.


Not even sure we are wrong what this is is the team flat out refusing to give out that one bad contract that everyone could have pointed to going forward. Just saying I think we have sent the wrong message with the team on top of the NFL at the moment.


Again though the funniest part is the owner gets to pocket an extra 50-100 mil in real dollars if not more when signing bonuses come into account and gets a total pass.

Today we became the Sinden Bruins/Charles Finley A's officially.

Did you just accuse the Patriots brass of friggin' racism? Are you really going there?

 

[DangleCity]

Anyone remember how badly Collins got torched in the AFCCG? Not saying the guy is a bum, but he is a flawed player and has had injury issues and was looking to get severly overpaid and there could have been issues behind the scenes. Yah it sucks and yah I would have preferred they held onto him till the end of the season, but the Patriots always get out in front of these things. This guy wasnt LT

 

[Ten Thousand Hours]

The real reason we traded Collins is that with their blowout loss yesterday, it doesn't look like we'll face the Colts all year.