Post-Game Talk: New York Rangers at Ottawa Senators - February 17

[bl02]

It's not moving goal posts.

Its incredibly difficult to build a winner with out doing it. San Jose got a great player in Marelau with the 2OA pick and then basically had an in his prime Joe Thornton fall into their laps. If you're relying on that to present itself to the Rangers, you're banking on something that doesn't happen very often and oh, you better already have a border line hall of fame talent on your roster!

BTW, I'm just saying that going for it with THIS team, as it is constructed right now, is 100% destined for failure.

But find me a cup winner that didn't have a top 5 (usually multiple) pick as a major contributor. You won't be able to do it, especially in the Cap era.

I'm not quite sure there is any Ranger fan on this board that is on board with "going for it with this team".
I'm pretty certain 99.9999 percent of the board wants us to sell sell sell on all UFA's and even our RFA's.
We can't control a tank that easily but we can sell and get as many picks and prospects as possible.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

Since the lockout, the Wings, Ducks, and Bruins won without bottoming out. The Bruins did have Seguin but he was a rookie. The Rangers and Sharks could have easily won with a couple of bounces. Neither team bottomed out.

How many consecutive years of first round picks did they trade? Top 60 picks?

 

[Alluckks]

Why is it Joe and Sam can’t say anything on the air but Vally tells the truth.

Vally has already made millions of dollars.

 

[KOVALEV022473]

I don’t want to fight with anyone, but it’s just upsetting coming to a board where Rangers fans should be together in rooting for the team to win, where instead we have posters cheering goals against and hoping Hank asks for a trade.

 

[Samuel Culper III]

As stated previously, it doesn’t work the vast majority of the time.

It doesn’t work the vast majority of the time because only one team wins each year in a 30 team league. Now it’s a 31 team league and soon it will be 32. It’s as competitive as ever and it certainly is hard to rebuild.

A lot needs to go right.

You need to make the right picks, not just with your easy, early 1sts but in the later rounds too, to cultivate some depth.

You need guys to develop right so you need some luck and a good farm team.

You need guys to play the right positions to fill out your roster. That’s usually not going to work out perfectly on its own, so you have to make trades and free agent signings.

Which means you need to be a destination players are willing to sign in or waive their NTCs for, in some cases. And then you still need to sign the right guys and make the right trades. Gave up on a prospect too early and he blossomed after the trade? Ouch. Signed that big name but he started to decline after a year, at 28 years old? Ouch.

And you need the right coach. And the right mix of players. Super talented but you don’t have a strong 4th line that can PK and forecheck? Great fleet of puck movers but you give up too many prime chances in the slot? Not the right mix of players. Gotta keep tinkering.



So, no, it doesn’t usually work. The Capitals haven’t won it all. But they’ve been a favorite or a team that’s been considered a genuine competitor annually and they’ve had the excitement of Ovechkin, Backstrom, etc. Those high picks didn’t “work” for them in terms of winning the ultimate prize, but again, only one team can each year and those teams usually have everything going right. That’s actually why three teams account for like 8 of the last 12 Cups. Because they had the right mix in almost all of those critical areas. All those other teams that got it 85% right fell short. Or maybe won one in there. The Lightning have Stamkos and Hedman but they haven’t won it yet.

But I’d rather be in the shoes of Lightning or Caps fan where we have the fun and excitement of watching elite players put up elite numbers and we’re always in the playoff/cup hunt than be in our shoes where we have watched years of teams that range from blatantly mediocre to pretty damn good get backstopped to success by a legendary goalie. Our seasons are so frustrating. We’ve been a good team but we haven’t always been a fun team. So, personally, even if our rebuild falls short and we end up no better than we were for the last decade, I feel it will be worth it. As we were this past decade, or as the Caps and Lightning have been (just as examples) we will be a playoff team and a team that competes, but hopefully we will cultivate some talent and become a lot more fun and a lot less frustrating to watch. Ultimately, the goal is obviously to win, but if we don’t how is it any different than now? This season would be a lot more fun if we had a guy on pace for 80+ points or 50 goals, even if we were still a lottery team.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

It's not moving goal posts.

Its incredibly difficult to build a winner with out doing it. San Jose got a great player in Marelau with the 2OA pick and then basically had an in his prime Joe Thornton fall into their laps. If you're relying on that to present itself to the Rangers, you're banking on something that doesn't happen very often and oh, you better already have a border line hall of fame talent on your roster!

BTW, I'm just saying that going for it with THIS team, as it is constructed right now, is 100% destined for failure.

But find me a cup winner that didn't have a top 5 (usually multiple) pick as a major contributor. You won't be able to do it, especially in the Cap era.

But you ignored the other examples of cup winners and contenders. Yeah you might need luck but so do the contenders. The Kings got a 3rd rounder goalie to be their playoff MVP. The Pens got Phil Kessel for nothing. The Blackhawks got a second rounder be their best defenseman and one of the best in the league. The Red Wings had one of the greatest runs in sports history with late round draft picks. The Bruins got a Norris caliber D-man who was never that good it Ottawa for nothing but money. They got their Selke winning #1 center in the second round. We can play this game all day.

Why are you completely disregarding the many more teams that have been perennial bottom feeders and never won a thing? That must be fun for those teams' fans. You completely ignore that in order to hit the Penguins/Blackhawks/Kings lottery. Let's not forget that the Pens just so happened to get the best #1 overall pick in recent memory in a lotto btw where we had the exact same odds and ended up picking something like 12th and getting Marc Staal. Then next year they lost the lotto and lucked into possibly the best #2 overall pick in recent memory. The Blackhawks won the lottery in 2007, the Flyers fans must have been posting on HF all year about their great tank of 2007 when they were by far the worst team in the league. They lost the lottery, the Hawks got a future HOFer and the Flyers got a decent top 6 player who they traded for Luke Schenn. The three teams you love to mention were successful in part due to their rebuild coming in the right time, in part due to luck, and in part due to good management. But the Oilers, Coyotes, Sabres, Panthers, Hurricanes, until recently Leafs, to a smaller extent the Islanders etc. are never brought up. You'd make a great hedge fund manager. You'd show your clients the 3 years your fund over-performed the S&P 500, but not the 10 it under-performed.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Lol you just wasted time typing all of that out because I don't disagree with any of it.

Malkin was taken the year before Crosby, but yeah.

 

[KOVALEV022473]

It doesn’t work the vast majority of the time because only one team wins each year in a 30 team league. Now it’s a 31 team league and soon it will be 32. It’s as competitive as ever and it certainly is hard to rebuild.

A lot needs to go right.

You need to make the right picks, not just with your easy, early 1sts but in the later rounds too, to cultivate some depth.

You need guys to develop right so you need some luck and a good farm team.

You need guys to play the right positions to fill out your roster. That’s usually not going to work out perfectly on its own, so you have to make trades and free agent signings.

Which means you need to be a destination players are willing to sign in or waive their NTCs for, in some cases. And then you still need to sign the right guys and make the right trades. Gave up on a prospect too early and he blossomed after the trade? Ouch. Signed that big name but he started to decline after a year, at 28 years old? Ouch.

And you need the right coach. And the right mix of players. Super talented but you don’t have a strong 4th line that can PK and forecheck? Great fleet of puck movers but you give up too many prime chances in the slot? Not the right mix of players. Gotta keep tinkering.



So, no, it doesn’t usually work. The Capitals haven’t won it all. But they’ve been a favorite or a team that’s been considered a genuine competitor annually and they’ve had the excitement of Ovechkin, Backstrom, etc. Those high picks didn’t “work” for them in terms of winning the ultimate prize, but again, only one team can each year and those teams usually have everything going right. That’s actually why three teams account for like 8 of the last 12 Cups. Because they had the right mix in almost all of those critical areas. All those other teams that got it 85% right fell short. Or maybe won one in there. The Lightning have Stamkos and Hedman but they haven’t won it yet.

But I’d rather be in the shoes of Lightning or Caps fan where we have the fun and excitement of watching elite players put up elite numbers and we’re always in the playoff/cup hunt than be in our shoes where we have watched years of teams that range from blatantly mediocre to pretty damn good get backstopped to success by a legendary goalie. Our seasons are so frustrating. We’ve been a good team but we haven’t always been a fun team. So, personally, even if our rebuild falls short and we end up no better than we were for the last decade, I feel it will be worth it. As we were this past decade, or as the Caps and Lightning have been (just as examples) we will be a playoff team and a team that competes, but hopefully we will cultivate some talent and become a lot more fun and a lot less frustrating to watch. Ultimately, the goal is obviously to win, but if we don’t how is it any different than now? This season would be a lot more fun if we had a guy on pace for 80+ points or 50 goals, even if we were still a lottery team.

Dude, we’ve literally knocked the Caps out, with our “mediocre” thirdline scrubs, three times in a row.

 

[Samuel Culper III]

Dude, we’ve literally knocked the Caps out, with our mediocre thirdline scrubs, three times in a row.

And?

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Dude, we’ve literally knocked the Caps out, with our mediocre thirdline scrubs, three times in a row.

Um... Those Ranger teams were pretty good and were favored to win 2 of those series.

 

[KOVALEV022473]

Um... Those Ranger teams were pretty good and were favored to win 2 of those series.

Lol really?! I can post stories from writers whom had the Rangers missing the playoffs in 2014.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

And?

It's actually a solid point. The Caps are not bottom feeders but they got lucky that they sucked in 2004, got one of the greatest goal scorers of all time, got one of the best centers in the NHL at like pick #4 in Backstrom, and have not made it past the second round with either.

 

[Samuel Culper III]

That’s exactly the point. Caps should theoretically be a better team than us. They’ve never gotten it all right. But neither of us has won. Caps fans have probably had a lot more fun over the last decade watching their team though. Sure they have a mountain of frustrating playoff troubles, but every year they can get excited. In the end both teams have the same thing to show for it. So if we rebuild and go from the no Cups Rangers to the no Cups Caps, how will it be any different? Maybe we’ll at least get to watch an elite talent light it up instead of coming out flat 40+ games a year and having Lundqvist save our bacon. The guy is 36. It isn’t going to last much longer.

Then what? If we’re not going to win either way (which is your argument, right? Rebuilds don’t work and we won’t win? But surely we won’t win if we stay the course either...) then at least we can be a fun team to watch instead of the anxiety inducing product we’ve often been over the Lundqvist years.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

That’s exactly the point. Caps should theoretically be a better team than us. They’ve never gotten it all right. But neither of us has won. Caps fans have probably had a lot more fun over the last decade watching their team though. Sure they have a mountain of frustrating playoff troubles, but every year they can get excited. In the end both teams have the same thing to show for it. So if we rebuild and go from the no Cups Rangers to the no Cups Caps, how will it be any different? Maybe we’ll at least get to watch an elite talent light it up instead of coming out flat 40+ games a year and having Lundqvist save our bacon. The guy is 36. It isn’t going to last much longer.

Then what? If we’re not going to win either way (which is your argument, right? Rebuilds don’t work and we won’t win? But surely we won’t win if we stay the course either...) then at least we can be a fun team to watch instead of the anxiety inducing product we’ve often been over the Lundqvist years.

But you cherry pick the Caps. How much fun were the Oilers to watch since 2006?

 

[SnowblindNYR]

And the Rangers didn't win it either but they made it past the furthest where the Caps have been 3 times and made the playoffs more times than the Caps, all while not tanking. The Caps are a poor example. I guess they were a slightly more fun team to watch if you like Ovechkin one timers from the same spot on every PP.

 

[Samuel Culper III]

It's actually a solid point. The Caps are not bottom feeders but they got lucky that they sucked in 2004, got one of the greatest goal scorers of all time, got one of the best centers in the NHL at like pick #4 in Backstrom, and have not made it past the second round with either played.

Right.

That’s the point that I made.

We haven’t won anything. They haven’t won anything.

We are a frustrating mediocre mess. We aren’t going to win anything by staying the course. The argument is that rebuilding is doomed to fail because 99% of the time it doesn’t work.

So my counter point is LET IT NOT WORK. I would rather NOT win the Cup with our own Ovechkin and Backstrom or Stamkos and Hedman than not win the Cup with the same bunch of mediocre players we have now. My point is OF COURSE most rebuilds don’t work. It’s a 31 team competitive league with one winner. We can stay the course and just continue to suck until Hank's wheels fall off and we bottom out naturally or we can go ahead and TRY a rebuild. Obviously the goal is to win the Cup. If we don’t and we’re like 99% of teams? Like I said, I’d rather we end up with our own exciting players than continue as we are now. NY will always attract UFAs and have money. We’ll never end up Edmonton. If we end up Tampa or Washington or San Jose or whoever, so be it. I’d rather try.

 

[Samuel Culper III]

But you cherry pick the Caps. How much fun were the Oilers to watch since 2006?

We’ll never be the f***ing Oilers. First of all, they bottomed out rather than really chose to rebuild. Second no one wanted to sign there and they weren’t spending to the cap due to ownership problems. That’s the point. It’s NY. We can always sign UFAs. We always have money. We aren’t going to go into a decade long rebuild. It is okay to sell off some assets though and stink for a year or two.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Right.

That’s the point that I made.

We haven’t won anything. They haven’t won anything.

We are a frustrating mediocre mess. We aren’t going to win anything by staying the course. The argument is that rebuilding is doomed to fail because 99% of the time it doesn’t work.

So my counter point is LET IT NOT WORK. I would rather NOT win the Cup with our own Ovechkin and Backstrom or Stamkos and Hedman than not win the Cup with the same bunch of mediocre players we have now. My point is OF COURSE most rebuilds don’t work. It’s a 31 team competitive league with one winner. We can stay the course and just continue to suck until Hank's wheels fall off and we bottom out naturally or we can go ahead and TRY a rebuild. Obviously the goal is to win the Cup. If we don’t and we’re like 99% of teams? Like I said, I’d rather we end up with our own exciting players than continue as we are now. NY will always attract UFAs and have money. We’ll never end up Edmonton. If we end up Tampa or Washington or San Jose or whoever, so be it. I’d rather try.

But we were more successful than the Caps while never bottoming out. It's not even a question. We were a much more successful franchise until this year. Sure it's fun to watch Ovechkin and Backstrom, but we were in the playoffs more times than them since the lockout and we went further than them. Us not having elite level talent is a minus, but us making it to the ECF three times and SCF once, and making the playoffs more times than the Caps kind of overrides that. I don't understand how you're using a team like the Caps as your argument. Just because they have two exciting players? And you're once again cherry picking the Caps. What about the Oilers, Coyotes, Sabres, Panthers?

 

[SnowblindNYR]

We’ll never be the ****ing Oilers. First of all, they bottomed out rather than really chose to rebuild. Second no one wanted to sign there and they weren’t spending to the cap due to ownership problems. That’s the point. It’s NY. We can always sign UFAs. We always have money. We aren’t going to go into a decade long rebuild. It is okay to sell off some assets though and stink for a year or two.

The Oilers are an extreme example, but they missed the playoffs for something like 10 years in a row, we missed them for 7 years in a row. We were never as bad as them, but we weren't much better. This was also when we had the highest payroll in the league and no cap. There are other examples other than the Oilers too.

 

[Samuel Culper III]

But we were more successful than the Caps while never bottoming out. It's not even a question. We were a much more successful franchise until this year. Sure it's fun to watch Ovechkin and Backstrom, but we were in the playoffs more times than them since the lockout and we went further than them. Us not having elite level talent is a minus, but us making it to the ECF three times and SCF once, and making the playoffs more times than the Caps kind of overrides that. I don't understand how you're using a team like the Caps as your argument. Just because they have two exciting players? And you're once again cherry picking the Caps. What about the Oilers, Coyotes, Sabres, Panthers?

Once again we are nothing like those franchises. Every team in the entire league has gone through or will go through a rebuild at some time. What we have done in the past doesn’t matter because this team isn’t repeating that success. What is your argument against rebuilding? The Rangers WERE better than the Caps so we shouldn’t rebuild? If you’re giving me the choice between watching the team we have RIGHT NOW with minimal change for another year or two or attempting a rebuild which MAY succeed but, more likely, will fall short (like all others) but will yield a team that is actually enjoyable to watch? Why would I not want to rebuild this team? How is the fact that rebuilding is difficult and likely to not go all the way an actual argument against rebuilding when it becomes necessary?

 

[Samuel Culper III]

The conversation isn’t literally about the Capitals or the Oilers.

The notion put forth is: rebuilds usually fail. So we shouldn’t rebuild.

I say, it doesn’t matter. We should most definitely rebuild. Our goalie is about to be 36 and we are not a good team with a very barren prospect pool. If you say we shouldn’t rebuild because rebuilds usually don’t succeed than you would rather stick to the way things are. I have less than zero interest in sticking to the way things are. I would MUCH rather gamble on a rebuild that falls short.

My argument regarding the Caps was only that, even if we fall short of winning the Cup after rebuilding, we’re much more likely to resemble the Caps - as in, being a playoff team and a team which people believe had a chance most years - than we are to resemble the Oilers. It isn’t about who had more success in the past. My point was we aren’t winning a Cup as we are right now. If we rebuild and we STILL aren’t winning? I would rather be an interesting and enjoyable team, like the Caps were, than continue down the road we are on right now.

 

[darko]

It doesn’t work the vast majority of the time because only one team wins each year in a 30 team league. Now it’s a 31 team league and soon it will be 32. It’s as competitive as ever and it certainly is hard to rebuild.

A lot needs to go right.

You need to make the right picks, not just with your easy, early 1sts but in the later rounds too, to cultivate some depth.

You need guys to develop right so you need some luck and a good farm team.

You need guys to play the right positions to fill out your roster. That’s usually not going to work out perfectly on its own, so you have to make trades and free agent signings.

Which means you need to be a destination players are willing to sign in or waive their NTCs for, in some cases. And then you still need to sign the right guys and make the right trades. Gave up on a prospect too early and he blossomed after the trade? Ouch. Signed that big name but he started to decline after a year, at 28 years old? Ouch.

And you need the right coach. And the right mix of players. Super talented but you don’t have a strong 4th line that can PK and forecheck? Great fleet of puck movers but you give up too many prime chances in the slot? Not the right mix of players. Gotta keep tinkering.



So, no, it doesn’t usually work. The Capitals haven’t won it all. But they’ve been a favorite or a team that’s been considered a genuine competitor annually and they’ve had the excitement of Ovechkin, Backstrom, etc. Those high picks didn’t “work” for them in terms of winning the ultimate prize, but again, only one team can each year and those teams usually have everything going right. That’s actually why three teams account for like 8 of the last 12 Cups. Because they had the right mix in almost all of those critical areas. All those other teams that got it 85% right fell short. Or maybe won one in there. The Lightning have Stamkos and Hedman but they haven’t won it yet.

But I’d rather be in the shoes of Lightning or Caps fan where we have the fun and excitement of watching elite players put up elite numbers and we’re always in the playoff/cup hunt than be in our shoes where we have watched years of teams that range from blatantly mediocre to pretty damn good get backstopped to success by a legendary goalie. Our seasons are so frustrating. We’ve been a good team but we haven’t always been a fun team. So, personally, even if our rebuild falls short and we end up no better than we were for the last decade, I feel it will be worth it. As we were this past decade, or as the Caps and Lightning have been (just as examples) we will be a playoff team and a team that competes, but hopefully we will cultivate some talent and become a lot more fun and a lot less frustrating to watch. Ultimately, the goal is obviously to win, but if we don’t how is it any different than now? This season would be a lot more fun if we had a guy on pace for 80+ points or 50 goals, even if we were still a lottery team.

Agree mostly but not sure how much fun Caps fans are having. Regular season sure. Postseason? Not so much. Heartbreak after a heartbreak.... and we are responsible for couple of them too.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Once again we are nothing like those franchises. Every team in the entire league has gone through or will go through a rebuild at some time. What we have done in the past doesn’t matter because this team isn’t repeating that success. What is your argument against rebuilding? The Rangers WERE better than the Caps so we shouldn’t rebuild? If you’re giving me the choice between watching the team we have RIGHT NOW with minimal change for another year or two or attempting a rebuild which MAY succeed but, more likely, will fall short (like all others) but will yield a team that is actually enjoyable to watch? Why would I not want to rebuild this team? How is the fact that rebuilding is difficult and likely to not go all the way an actual argument against rebuilding when it becomes necessary?

Once again this exact franchise sucked for 7 years in row. Granted they didn't rebuild to get in that spot, but I feel like you've been blinded a bit by the success of the team if you think they can't become a perennial loser again. I think changes need to be made too, my point is the people that think blowing it all up is a great thing because of a few outliers. The success rate of the rebuilds is not in favor of the rebuilding team.

 

[Samuel Culper III]

Agree mostly but not sure how much fun Caps fans are having. Regular season sure. Postseason? Not so much. Heartbreak after a heartbreak.... and we are responsible for couple of them too.

Obviously, but any post season loss is heartbreaking. If anything, yes, theirs are worse because they actually EXPECT to win and don’t. But that’s kinda the point. They have exciting players. They’re a “good team” every year. They feel like they can win. It’s exciting and fun for the fans. They have guys who are electrifying to watch. Their fans can get excited rather than be pulling their hair out all year. Yes, the playoff failures suck. I wasn’t saying we should literally be a carbon copy. I was just saying going that if we go through a rebuild and it falls short, and we end up resembling the Caps... how is that WORSE than where we are heading if we don’t even try to rebuild? This team is unlikeable. It isn’t fun to watch, at all.

 

[Samuel Culper III]

Once again this exact franchise sucked for 7 years in row. Granted they didn't rebuild to get in that spot, but I feel like you've been blinded a bit by the success of the team if you think they can't become a perennial loser again. I think changes need to be made too, my point is the people that think blowing it all up is a great thing because of a few outliers. The success rate of the rebuilds is not in favor of the rebuilding team.

What is the alternative? Lay it out for me. The league your describing from the Rangers last down period doesn’t exist today. The odds of the Rangers bottoming out for 5+ years are just as low as the odds of a rebuild yielding a Cup. Meaning we probably won’t win a Cup AND we won’t miss the playoffs for 4, 5, 6 years. We’ll just be a playoff team, maybe come close a couple times, etc.

Just like 30 other teams. But at least we can be an enjoyable team instead of the shit show we are now.