New to Baseball (Questions, etc)

[S A W F T*]

Hmm okay thanks I'll give it look

http://www.baseball-reference.com/

 

[BigMac1212]

What's a difference between a Force Out and a Fielder's Choice?

 

[robert terwilliger]

fielder's choice involves a tag.

 

[S A W F T*]

fielder's choice involves a tag.

Not necessarily. A fielder's choice can be a shortstop flipping the ball to the second baseman as the hitter still reaches first base.

 

[S A W F T*]

What's a difference between a Force Out and a Fielder's Choice?

Lets say a runner is on 1st and the hitter hits a screamer to the shortstop.... he could flip it to the second baseman (even if the runner isn't even close) and step on the bag for a force out. It won't matter if the actual hitter reaches.

Could go for many scenarios... lets say a runner on 1st and 2nd. Hitter grounds a ball to the third baseman, he fields it and steps on 3rd base, the guy running from 2nd base is forced out. Hopefully that third baseman can throw to 1st base for a double play.

 

[Canada4Gold]

a force out not at 1st base is also a fielders choice(I've seen boxscores say fielders choice though MLB boxscores now say force out), but a fielders choice doesn't have to be a force out.

A fielders choice is any play where the fielder tries to get another runner out when the official scorer believes he would have gotten the batter-runner out if he threw the ball to 1st. It doesn't have to be a force out, say 1st/3rd and they throw the guy out at the plate, that's a fielders choice and not a force out.

a force out is any play where they don't have to tag the runner to get him out. Just tag the base he's running to.

 

[robert terwilliger]

i was taught in little league that a fielder's choice was any play in which the fielder gets an out at a base where there isn't a force play.

if the fielder gets another runner out on a force at another base it's a force, not a fielder's choice.

example: runner on second, fewer than two outs, grounder up the middle cut by second baseman who throws to third to cut the lead runner. that's a fielder's choice.

first and second, fewer than two outs, grounder up the middle cut by second baseman who throws to third to force the lead runner. that's a force play.

 

[S A W F T*]

i was taught in little league that a fielder's choice was any play in which the fielder gets an out at a base where there isn't a force play.

if the fielder gets another runner out on a force at another base it's a force, not a fielder's choice.

example: runner on second, fewer than two outs, grounder up the middle cut by second baseman who throws to third to cut the lead runner. that's a fielder's choice.

first and second, fewer than two outs, grounder up the middle cut by second baseman who throws to third to force the lead runner. that's a force play.

thats different than a fielder's choice involves a tag

 

[robert terwilliger]

yeah it's simplifying it.

in the example, a tag is needed at third for the fielder's choice and not for the force.

 

[Canada4Gold]

I swear that I've read MLB boxscores in the past and they've always used "xxx player grounds into a fielders choice 2nd baseman to SS..."

Right now they're saying force play. But I'm almost certain it hasn't always been like that. I'm pretty sure a force out is also a fielders choice. The fielder chose to force the runner at 2nd instead of getting the hitter out at 1st. It's a choice, made by the fielder.

 

[robert terwilliger]

they're just trying to make a difference between force and fielder's choice, that's what it is.

otherwise every single putout is a fielder's choice.

 

[robert terwilliger]

but i've also heard both radio and tv guys say that someone grounded into a fielder's choice which was nothing more than a pivot man being unable to get a ball out of his glove.

people can be wrong.

 

[Canada4Gold]

The MLB.com rules definition says a fielders choice is...

FIELDER’S CHOICE is the act of a fielder who handles a fair
grounder and, instead of throwing to first base to put out the batter-runner,
throws to another base in an attempt to put out a preceding runner.
The term is also used by scorers (a) to account for the advance of the batter-runner
who takes one or more extra bases when the fielder who handles
his safe hit attempts to put out a preceding runner; (b) to account for
the advance of a runner (other than by stolen base or error) while a
fielder is attempting to put out another runner; and (c) to account for the
advance of a runner made solely because of the defensive team’s indifference
(undefended steal).

it doesn't differentiate between whether the other runner they are putting out is by force play or tag play.

It's just a term to describe hey the batter-runner got on, but not because he got a hit, but because the fielder chose to try to get another runner out instead. Could be force or tag play.

 

[Canada4Gold]

they're just trying to make a difference between force and fielder's choice, that's what it is.

otherwise every single putout is a fielder's choice.

every single play where a fielder chooses to get a runner that isn't the batter-runner out is a fielders choice. It's a term used to describe how the batter got on base.

You can't differentiate between a fielders choice and a force play because sometimes they are the same thing. The thing to differentiate would be a force play and a tag play.

What you can do is say what each thing is. A force play is when you get a runner out by touching the base, a fielders choice is when the fielder chooses to attempt to get a runner out that isn't the hitter when he could get the hitter out if he tried. And sometimes these are the same thing, like runner on 1st, 2 out groundball to 2nd to get the force out is also a fielders choice.

 

[robert terwilliger]

you could say that but i'd disagree.

 

[robert terwilliger]

i've emailed the bp podcast and hope this settles things.

otherwise i will see you in court.

 

[IU Hawks fan]

a force out not at 1st base is also a fielders choice(I've seen boxscores say fielders choice though MLB boxscores now say force out), but a fielders choice doesn't have to be a force out.

A fielders choice is any play where the fielder tries to get another runner out when the official scorer believes he would have gotten the batter-runner out if he threw the ball to 1st. It doesn't have to be a force out, say 1st/3rd and they throw the guy out at the plate, that's a fielders choice and not a force out.

a force out is any play where they don't have to tag the runner to get him out. Just tag the base he's running to.

Bingo.

Fielder's choice is a scoring term.

A force out is NOT a scoring term. It is something totally different.

 

[robert terwilliger]

sam miller told me via email that i am wrong.

 

[BigMac1212]

MLB The Show has a stat called POP. It is a combination of batting average, on base percentage and slugging percentage. How would you write that in one equation? (I know you hate math, but I grew up liking math, and did well until high school.)

 

[garnetpalmetto]

MLB The Show has a stat called POP. It is a combination of batting average, on base percentage and slugging percentage. How would you write that in one equation? (I know you hate math, but I grew up liking math, and did well until high school.)

POP is Productive Out Percentage. Not really much math to it and it's not really a combination of the stats you detail, which is why some are dismissive of the stat - it's productive outs divided by the total number of outs. A productive out occurs when

• A baserunner advances with the first out of an inning
• A pitcher sacrifices with one out
• A baserunner is driven home with the second out of an inning

So if you have a player who has 4 outs in a game but 1 of them is productive, their POP is .250

 

[BigMac1212]

POP is Productive Out Percentage. Not really much math to it and it's not really a combination of the stats you detail, which is why some are dismissive of the stat - it's productive outs divided by the total number of outs. A productive out occurs when

• A baserunner advances with the first out of an inning
• A pitcher sacrifices with one out
• A baserunner is driven home with the second out of an inning

So if you have a player who has 4 outs in a game but 1 of them is productive, their POP is .250

Someone should tell MLB the Show...

 

[rangerssharks414]

POP is Productive Out Percentage. Not really much math to it and it's not really a combination of the stats you detail, which is why some are dismissive of the stat - it's productive outs divided by the total number of outs. A productive out occurs when

• A baserunner advances with the first out of an inning
• A pitcher sacrifices with one out
• A baserunner is driven home with the second out of an inning

So if you have a player who has 4 outs in a game but 1 of them is productive, their POP is .250

I don't think I've ever seen that stat used.

Down two in the bottom of the ninth with one out and a runner on second... ground ball to the right side, and the runner (who means nothing) moves up! Productive out? Nope... that runner means nothing, and you are down to your last out.

I hate when people say "productive out". Heck, I consider a strikeout that causes a pitcher to throw 12 pitches a "productive out", but that wouldn't count towards that stat.

 

[AdmiralsFan24]

Productive out is the best oxymoron.

 

[kingsholygrail]

Dodgers should try putting another pitcher out there since this one can't get an out.

 

[Jackets Woodchuck]

Been on HFBoards for a while (mostly Jackets and AHL). Just found this forum.

Here's my two cents on a few questions posed earlier in this thread.

- Biggest day for transactions in baseball is July 31st (August 1st this year), the trade deadline (even crazier than the NHL one).

- The reason you can keep the ball in baseball is that, unlike in cricket, ball degradation isn't considered an integral part of the sport. In fact, the threshold of wear to take a ball out of game use (especially in MLB) is insanely low.

- Notes on keeping balls/bats in lower levels:
- Forget keeping a bat anywhere below MLB
- You can keep balls in minor pro, summer college comes down to if the team can afford to lose balls (if they make you give them back, they usually offer something in exchange), NCAA makes you give the balls back (partially because D II and D III teams can't afford to lose them and they don't like making different playing rules for different divisions and partially because that makes baseball more like other sports, and the NCAA likes to force all other sports into the football/basketball template [another example of this is using the term "head coach" instead of "manager"]).

Teams can have multiple affiliates in the Arizona and Gulf Coast Leagues (the two minor leagues based out of spring training complexes rather than full-blown ballparks*).

*For those wondering, the public is allowed to watch, but there are no concessions or programs/scorecards [however, there is also no admission fee - except for the Gulf Coast League Braves because they play at the Disney sports complex next to Disney World]).

Is there any interest in an explanation of how to keep score?