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New Jersey Devils (Team/Player Discussion)-Offseason FA and trade talk Part XIIX

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JimEIV said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again ....I am willing to take any bet we score more goals per game than any Kovalchuk year without Parise ...that is 2.09 and 2.29...the average is 2.19...any bet.

30th and 29th in scoring is what Kovalchuk by himself brought to the table...so if the idea that the offense will be better without him is so ridiculous I'm looking forward to hearing your wager proposal.
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winner of the bet gets banned, MODS!, set it up.
 
Zajac has a fantastic shot. Can't find the one against the Panthers from the playoffs (Not the game 6 OT goal) but it used to be on there. And this one.




Unfortunately we really didn't see any great shot goals from him last year.
 
I'm going to be pretty pissed and disappointed if Zajac doesn't do much better this year. Sure, not having Parise makes a difference, but he needs to adjust.
 
JimEIV said:
Im down for that is that what you want?
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you either want to get banned, don't believe it is going to happen, or didn't read what i actually wrote very close.

no matter the reason, i don't want to bet, i have opinions, some stronger than others but thats all they are.

and i do believe the devils will score more next season, but i also don't believe its from lack of Kovy directly nor were those 3 years of up and down based on Parise being there or not.

thats where we don't agree
 
trufleshufle13 said:
you either want to get banned, don't believe it is going to happen, or didn't read what i actually wrote very close.

no matter the reason, i don't want to bet, i have opinions, some stronger than others but thats all they are.

and i do believe the devils will score more next season, but i also don't believe its from lack of Kovy directly nor were those 3 years of up and down based on Parise being there or not.

thats where we don't agree
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Having opinions is fine...and I've heard a lot people echo your thoughts...

But I haven't heard a single person explain why we finished just about last in scoring both times Kovalchuk had the opportunity to lead by himself other than Maclean who was the coach for about 30 games out of 130 games where we finished just about last in scoring.

What was Kovalchuk's cumulative effect on the New Jersey Devils? How should his time here be judged?

Maybe I exaggerate the negative but it is purely a response to the many who refuse to acknowledge there was a problem at all.
 
The bet does not work, it's not because Kovalchuk left that we will score more, it's because of the additions we made. I hope that the 4 players we added will produce more then kovy alone, but that is also combining 4 players production and putting them against one player production which is far from fair.
 
JimEIV said:
You really think finishing 9th worse and 8th worse in a 30 team league is being competitive?

I really don't even know how to respond to that without being snide....cause the only word that comes to mind is delusional.
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In a league were 15th worst makes the playoffs, yes, 9th worst is competitive. We had a legitimate chance of making the playoffs this past year. In fact, we were in a playoff position for most of the season. That doesn't mean we were good, or should settle for that result.

Not world beating. But in the hunt. Worthy competition. Holding your own. Not unreasonable to make the playoffs. That's how I define competitive.

Do you define it differently?
 
Take Notes said:
That's putting facts in a way that favors your opinion

In the first full season of kovy with the devils, the whole first half no one was producing, can you atleast admit that fact instead of cherrypicking facts and put them in your favor?

Not his fault JMac was a horrible coach and Mr Grumpy was acting up . Did you notice that after those two were gone, the team went on one of the most amazing second half in nhl history until the last couple of games, and who was leading the charge? It was Kovy.

Who led the team in scoring in both the regular season and the playoffs the year after? Kovy it was.

Sure he was horrible last season, beyond horrible, and we all knew something was wrong, either it was mentally or his body.

You blame everything bad that happened to the team on him. Kovy did not cost us Parise, the 98 million contract he got cost us Parise.

it waa a threat watching him, we might not get a player that brings that much excitement in a long time.

This guy had heart, and you see he cared about the team until after the lockout .

Why don't you point out all the good things he has done, you were wrong all along about Kovy, you just lucked out that he "retired" , and now you're taking advantage of that fact.

Everything you said about Kovy was wrong, he changed his game to suit the devils, and yet he was our best player in the season where we made the playoffs and went to the finals.

This guy played with no back and still led the team in scoring in the playoffs... but no, he's just a turnover machine right?..

Everybody who would take Parise at a higher cap hit then Kovalchuk is either stupid or doesn't know anything about hockey.
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Agree with everything you just said.
 
JimEIV said:
Having opinions is fine...and I've heard a lot people echo your thoughts...

But I haven't heard a single person explain why we finished just about last in scoring both times Kovalchuk had the opportunity to lead by himself other than Maclean who was the coach for about 30 games out of 130 games where we finished just about last in scoring.

What was Kovalchuk's cumulative effect on the New Jersey Devils? How should his time here be judged?

Maybe I exaggerate the negative but it is purely a response to the many who refuse to acknowledge there was a problem at all.
Click to expand...

When you can't defend your position, resort to just calling it your opinion.
 
JimEIV said:
Having opinions is fine...and I've heard a lot people echo your thoughts...

But I haven't heard a single person explain why we finished just about last in scoring both times Kovalchuk had the opportunity to lead by himself other than Maclean who was the coach for about 30 games out of 130 games where we finished just about last in scoring.

What was Kovalchuk's cumulative effect on the New Jersey Devils? How should his time here be judged?

Maybe I exaggerate the negative but it is purely a response to the many who refuse to acknowledge there was a problem at all.
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Why not compare Kovy vs Parise when they were both playing on the team? Lets compare oranges with oranges.

Kovy >>> Parise in that season. He was considered top 5 forward In the league.

Every full season Kovy was here, he outproduced Parise, and that is a fact my friend.
 
Bleedred said:
Let's put it this way. The 2013 Kovalchuk can be replaced. Possibly by Ryder alone. He might not have the point total Kovalchuk was on pace for last season, but the goal total he easily will I think. If you watched the 2013 Kovalchuk you would know he wasn't that great by his standards.

Let's not forget the 13 games with Moose while Marty was injured. We won 3 games in that stretch, and that was with Kovalchuk in the lineup. Two of those wins came in a shootout, our only two shootouts wins of the season. If we lose those two shootouts like we lost so many others, we win 1 out of 13 games during that stretch. Just like the 1 out of 11 we won when Kovalchuk was injured.

Now the 11-12 Kovalchuk, that will be very hard to replace, just as the 11-12 Parise will be.
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the only part of kovalchuk's game that can't be replaced from last season is on the penalty kill. only crosby can bring that kind of dimension to a unit. but that's a minor gripe. if it was 2013 kovy we were going to get, the only reason i worry is because other players will draw the top defensive pairings now. otherwise he was entirely replaceable.
JimEIV said:
The interesting thing from my perspective is how much more honest the conversation has become today than it could've be as recently as a month ago.

If you have a different opinion on Kovalchuk that is fine and I respect that...

But a month ago we couldn't even have an honest conversation. The idea that the Kovalchuk experiment was a failure wouldn't have even been entertained... maybe cause it was the length of his contact and to call it a failure after 3 years didn't sit well with many and that now there is an end it is easier to be critical...

Regardless, I believe time will show Kovalchuk just wasn't right for New Jersey.
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i don't feel kovy was right for nj either, mostly because he wasn't doing the things that made him successful in atlanta here. he did the same 3 plays over and over and never seemed to make his linemates better. that's the exact opposite of what he was in atlanta. he may have been a better all-around player, but he was a worse goal scorer, and ultimately that's what nj needed him to be.

nj needs a different type of goal scorer than kovalchuk, who works much bvetter in run and gun systems.

Feed Me A Stray Cat said:
What star players does Los Angeles have up front? The only guy you can make an argument for is Kopitar, and even then he's borderline.
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that is true, but i'd say at the current stage of their careers, kopitar, richards, carter, and brown are a better top 4 forwards than elias, zajac, and whichever two of henrique, jagr, ryder, zubrus, and others you consider our top 4 forwards. also doughty is a world better than greene, and quick was better than our goaltending in 2012. i simply don't buy the argument that teams win the cup without star players.

ThePSEGPowerPoster said:
Trav and Kovy don't fit. Trav isn't creative enough for a player like Kovy. They play two completely different styles. You need to put Trav with someone like Jagr, Zubrus, Clowe.

Ryder would suffer with Trav. Kovy turned Zajac into a stationary "winger" playing center. It was awful to watch.
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the thing is, some of kovy's best work offensively was with guys like todd white, chris throburn, and glen metropolit on his line. that's because those guys were adept at staying out of the way and not ****ing up the chances he handed them. kovy has never been a player that needed good linemates to produce, and there's a reason atlanta fans always laughed when people speculated what he would do with a "real playmaking center" way back when. it may not be the best play style, but his max offensive output came when he was a do it alone type player.
trufleshufle13 said:
then the lockout happened, he went home and was openly happy to be there and openly upset with the way things were handled with the NHL, came back and had a horrible season. (injuries, no parise, or just change of heart. once again, we will never know)

i say if the lockout never happened we wouldn't even be having this discussion and this last season would have been a lot different along with kovy still being here and coming off another great season.

i know you say its because of no Parise but i strongly disagree, the Parise/ no Parise timeline conveniently lines up, yes, but so does a lot of other things i think played a bigger role.
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i couldn't agree with this part more.
Richer's Ghost said:
Currently Ovechkin has 402 goals including playoffs.
Kovalchuk has 428 goals including playoffs.

3 three year buffer (108 goals) Kovy had entering the league in 2001 will evaporate this year if Ovy can stay healthy or not "retire".

If you flip that analysis around starting with when Ovechkin entered the league, he passed Kovy in 2007 after 2 seasons and has outscored him every season except 2011.
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i didn't mean that as he was the best goal scorer in the league, just that teams don't normally get better by removing players that have the capability to put up those kinds of points.
JimEIV said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again ....I am willing to take any bet we score more goals per game than any Kovalchuk year without Parise ...that is 2.09 and 2.29...the average is 2.19...any bet.

30th and 29th in scoring is what Kovalchuk by himself brought to the table...so if the idea that the offense will be better without him is so ridiculous I'm looking forward to hearing your wager proposal.
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i don't think it's ridiculous to say the devils will score more this year, i fully expect them to. i think it's ridiculous to say that it is because kovalchuk won't be playing for us. i think you could replace any player on the team with kovalchuk on the same contract and it would make the team better offensively. i'm not making an argument that the team isn't better than it was last year, i'm making an argument that it's kovalchuk's contract being gone, and not kovalchuk the player being gone, that makes it a better team.
 
JimEIV said:
Having opinions is fine...and I've heard a lot people echo your thoughts...

But I haven't heard a single person explain why we finished just about last in scoring both times Kovalchuk had the opportunity to lead by himself other than Maclean who was the coach for about 30 games out of 130 games where we finished just about last in scoring.

What was Kovalchuk's cumulative effect on the New Jersey Devils? How should his time here be judged?

Maybe I exaggerate the negative but it is purely a response to the many who refuse to acknowledge there was a problem at all.
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i actually explained step for step what i believed happened in another thread when we were arguing it a while back, and a couple pages back i gave a short version of it.
 
CerebralGenesis said:
When you can't defend your position, resort to just calling it your opinion.
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i have actually explained it twice now, once in a pretty lengthy post and another this thread, if this was a poke at me. but i understand how when i make my point it can be easily over looked due to being in the under 500 club as far as posts go.
 
After September 30th I have a moratorium on talking about Kovalchuk... there is so much here for me to respond to that it is difficult to keep up with. I'm not avoiding any of the valid points of discussion, it just a lot and if I don't tie my wife a dozen flies to fish with this weekend she'll beat me.
 
apice3 said:
Are you one of the posters who is going to be gone next year when Loktionov doesn't put up 50 points?
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no it was a joke because he said ill take any bet that says we will score more with out kovy. i would never do a ban bet on here.
 
JimEIV said:
After September 30th I have a moratorium on talking about Kovalchuk... there is so much here for me to respond to that it is difficult to keep up with. I'm not avoiding any of the valid points of discussion, it just a lot and if I don't tie my wife a dozen flies to fish with this weekend she'll beat me.
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thats fine, im okay with not talking about kovy at all anymore. but when you respond to me by saying you have yet to see anyone back up or explain why its not how you say it is, when i have responded to you with exactly that only a few pages ago makes it seem that way.
 
trufleshufle13 said:
no it was a joke because he said ill take any bet that says we will score more with out kovy. i would never do a ban bet on here.
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It's pretty simple.

This 2013 team + #17 would score more goals than the current 2013 team which will score more goals than the 2012 team.

So he's right, technically. We will score more goals without him, but it's also because we've added Ryder, Clowe, Jagr and Olesz.
 
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