Player Discussion Neal Pionk: Part II

[True Blue]

You have a post where Pionk's numbers in a very specific context are presented with comparisons to our other RD's just a few posts up. I suggest you read it.

I have read them all. Thanks for playing. The discussion you have jumped into deals with solely relying on metrics to judge performance. I suggest you remember that.

 

[McRanger]

I have read them all. Thanks for playing. The discussion you have jumped into deals with solely relying on metrics to judge performance. I suggest you remember that.

Honest question, is there a better way to judge a player (any player really) than how many goals the player is on for and on against?

 

[True Blue]

Honest question, is there a better way to judge a player (any player really) than how many goals the player is on for and on against?

I think that it is virtually impossible just by metrics. We all knowledge that the +/- sucks, but that's the one stat that gives you how many goals the player is on for and on against. Similarly why Corsi cannot be solely looked upon. I think it is a combination of metrics and eye test. But to go back to the beginning, no I am not sure there is an easy way to judge.

 

[McRanger]

I think that it is virtually impossible just by metrics. We all knowledge that the +/- sucks, but that's the one stat that gives you how many goals the player is on for and on against. Similarly why Corsi cannot be solely looked upon. I think it is a combination of metrics and eye test. But to go back to the beginning, no I am not sure there is an easy way to judge.

I don't know. If you are consistently on for a large amount of goals against (especially when there is a noticeable difference compared to your teammates or players on other teams playing a similar role) then there is a probably a problem somewhere.

And frankly I'm not sure what people are seeing with the "eye test" that are making them think otherwise. His defensive role and minutes, considering his age, are extremely impressive. His defensive play is... let's just say... developing? And the results are bad.

And at some point his non-PP results are going to have to matter if he is going to continue to get a ton of non-PP TOI. If there is a problem that is fixable I would prefer they work on it now and not when the games really matter.

 

[True Blue]

I don't know. If you are consistently on for a large amount of goals against (especially when there is a noticeable difference compared to your teammates or players on other teams playing a similar role) then there is a probably a problem somewhere.

Sure, but again, one needs to look at some anecdotal data. To illustrate, let's blow it out a bit. If you are always on the ice for defensive draws and never for offensive draws and only on the ice against the opposing top players and not some of the lesser ones, there is a very good chance that you are going to be on the ice for the majority of the opposition's goals. Or if you are on the ice only on offensive draws and never for defensive draws and never for when neutral draws when the opposition has its top players on the ice, the amount of goals scored when you are on the ice is going to be materially less.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

Sure, but again, one needs to look at some anecdotal data. To illustrate, let's blow it out a bit. If you are always on the ice for defensive draws and never for offensive draws and only on the ice against the opposing top players and not some of the lesser ones, there is a very good chance that you are going to be on the ice for the majority of the opposition's goals. Or if you are on the ice only on offensive draws and never for defensive draws and never for when neutral draws when the opposition has its top players on the ice, the amount of goals scored when you are on the ice is going to be materially less.

Looking at the last couple games, Pionk is actually on the ice for more offensive zone (and neutral) draws than he is for defensive

The PP may be skewing that data because he's on the top PP unit (which he has no business being on).

I feel bad for him, he's kinda turning into Girardi right in front of our eyes. A guy that is playing above his head and gets caved in, but they keep throwing him out there anyways

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Looking at the last couple games, Pionk is actually on the ice for more offensive zone (and neutral) draws than he is for defensive

The PP may be skewing that data because he's on the top PP unit (which he has no business being on).

I feel bad for him, he's kinda turning into Girardi right in front of our eyes. A guy that is playing above his head and gets caved in, but they keep throwing him out there anyways

This was true for a few games.

No more though, he's been excellent in this role.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

This was true for a few games.

No more though, he's been excellent in this role.

Eh. NP only has 5 PP SOG. Shatty has 16 SOG. Your pointman's gotta consistenly get pucks on the cage.

I feel Neil sometimes give them better entries on the PP because he can carry the puck better, but Shattenkirk gets pucks though like few else. He should probably be the staple on PP1.

 

[Machinehead]

+/1? Really?

Yes, the object is to out score. But there are somethings that put some players into certain positions. Who you are out there against, matters. Where you are being deployed, matters.

Context matters and blindly looking at stats ignores that. The equivalent would be judging platoon baseball players solely by what the numbers show. A left handed specialist against righty pitchers can have great numbers. But to trumpet him as the end all and be all is not accurate as he cannot hit a lick against lefties which is why he is not a starter. Context.

Come on. This is weak. What you are saying is that if someone does not agree with your viewpoint, they are wrong as clearly you speak the truth and they do not. Pointing out fallacies of blindly looking at stats is just that. Not a love or hate of them. There is a reason that some are extrapolated. And extrapolated numbers produce extrapolated results. Not real world. Some should also be examined with a grain of salt as there is absolutely nothing besides viewing them with blinders on. Which ignores context. No one dislikes stats, but they are far from the sole indicator of some one;s worth.

When you're that bad, context doesn't matter.

 

[True Blue]

When you're that bad, context doesn't matter.

Context most certainly matters when your sole standard of judgement is what a statistic tells you.

 

[McRanger]

Sure, but again, one needs to look at some anecdotal data. To illustrate, let's blow it out a bit. If you are always on the ice for defensive draws and never for offensive draws and only on the ice against the opposing top players and not some of the lesser ones, there is a very good chance that you are going to be on the ice for the majority of the opposition's goals. Or if you are on the ice only on offensive draws and never for defensive draws and never for when neutral draws when the opposition has its top players on the ice, the amount of goals scored when you are on the ice is going to be materially less.

Its tough to do a perfectly apples-to apples-comparison but Marc Staal has been on the ice for more defensive zone faceoffs than Pionk and less offensive zone faceoffs and has been on the ice for 5 more goals for and 3 less goals against.

Marc Staal.

For me the numbers (not "advanced" stats, just basic plain old goal numbers) match what I am seeing. Pionk is not bad defensively in the sense that he is out of position or makes stupid plays. But he has trouble both moving the puck out of the zone and letting the puck into the zone. This means he spends a lot of time in his own zone, which means he is going to be on the ice for more goals against and his offense will suffer.

I mean for a guy with his skill who has 15 PP points in only 22 games to only be on the ice for 11 total ES goals for (in over 386 minutes, the second worst out of all 102 D-men who have played as much as Pionk) is a bit... troubling.

 

[Machinehead]

Context most certainly matters when your sole standard of judgement is what a statistic tells you.

This is like saying a guy with 3 goals the entire year is a first liner in the right context.

At a certain point, the stats are what they are. You can't just make up something else because it's what you want to see.

 

[JimmyG89]

Eh. NP only has 5 PP SOG. Shatty has 16 SOG. Your pointman's gotta consistenly get pucks on the cage.

I feel Neil sometimes give them better entries on the PP because he can carry the puck better, but Shattenkirk gets pucks though like few else. He should probably be the staple on PP1.

Especially when PP1 has Mika, Kreider, and Chytil on it. Those three are very good at entering the zone. Put Hayes and Pionk on PP2 and our entries there will be cleaner as well.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

This was true for a few games.

No more though, he's been excellent in this role.

Shattenkirk is one of the best PP QB's in the world.

Pionk can be on the powerplay but he has no business playing ahead of Shatty. It's really not even up for discussion

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Shattenkirk is one of the best PP QB's in the world.

Pionk can be on the powerplay but he has no business playing ahead of Shatty. It's really not even up for discussion

Pionk has 10 or 11 points on the PP this year.

He’s earned his spot.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Pionk has 10 or 11 points on the PP this year.

He’s earned his spot.

 

[Harbour Dog]

The direction of this thread has been the most predictable thing about the Rangers so far this year.

 

[Machinehead]

Pionk has 10 or 11 points on the PP this year.

He’s earned his spot.

He has a point on 100% of the PP goals scored with him on the ice this year. The highest recorded is 81%.

Only 27% of his attempted PP shots have gotten through to the net, whereas elite PP producers are generally over 60%.

I'm all for having him on PP1 while he's hot, but he will slow down, and given how this team generally treats him, I don't see him being taken off the unit when he does.

 

[mrmovies779]

Yandle -50,OEL -81,Kronwall -54.I never would have expected their +/- to have been so bad.Yes,i know its considered a meaningless stat.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

No I get it.

Pionk has been friggin amazing on the PP so far. There is no reason to take him off of it until he gives you a reason to.

The PK however, is a different story.

 

[FJB]

Shatty has been trash this season, but he'll put up PP with minutes (assuming he's healthy and still not playing hurt). If that's the case he should be on the first unit.

 

[Machinehead]

Yandle -50,OEL -81,Kronwall -54.I never would have expected their +/- to have been so bad.Yes,i know its considered a meaningless stat.

They all play a lot of PP. Traditional +/- punishes you for existing on the PP.

I know Yandle's GF% is positive over the last 5 years, not sure about the others.

 

[Rempe73]

My solution is to keep Pionk on the power play as long as he is producing. And frankly, I don't care about Shattenkirk. He's most likely better than Pionk on the PP, but it is obvious he has regressed. So who really knows? And even if Shattenkirk is better, wouldn't you rather keep Pionk on the top PP unit for development and confidence reasons? I'm not pro-tank, but this is still an experimental year.

As far as 5v5 goes, Pionk needs to get off the top pairing. He needs to play less minutes. He needs to be tried with a different partner. And he needs to be coached. Like someone said, his defense isn't bad. It's pretty decent for an offensive defenseman. But he really needs to work on his zone exits. I don't get it. He can pass the puck well and skate like the wind. How hard can zone exits be? It gets annoying watching him hemmed in his own zone for so long, when you know he can be very effective at the other end of the ice. He needs to pass the puck out instead of just banking it off the boards. However, in the past couple games, I have seen some improvement from him in exiting the zone. Now he needs to work on keeping the puck in the offensive zone.

He still can improve, and I don't know why it seems many members are writing him off.

 

[True Blue]

This is like saying a guy with 3 goals the entire year is a first liner in the right context.

At a certain point, the stats are what they are. You can't just make up something else because it's what you want to see.

But pretending that they tell you the full story is just disingenuous. Chances are that the player who is out there for most defensive draws and almost all the time against the other teams top lines is going to be the player who is on the ice more often than not when the opposition scores a goal. Or be right up there in the conversation. If we were to utilize such a blind approach, you would be advocating that Drew Doughty or a Victor Hedman should be not be on the ice when the opposition's top players are. At a certain point, the stats are what they are. You can't just make up something else because it's what you want to see.

 

[Machinehead]

But pretending that they tell you the full story is just disingenuous. Chances are that the player who is out there for most defensive draws and almost all the time against the other teams top lines is going to be the player who is on the ice more often than not when the opposition scores a goal. Or be right up there in the conversation. If we were to utilize such a blind approach, you would be advocating that Drew Doughty or a Victor Hedman should be not be on the ice when the opposition's top players are. At a certain point, the stats are what they are. You can't just make up something else because it's what you want to see.

Doughty and Hedman aren't outscored 2:1