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Player Discussion Neal Pionk: Part II

Blue Blooded said:
Pionk is being asked to play a difficult role 5v5, a role he can't handle really. DeAngelo is being asked to play roughly the same role and doing a lot better with it.
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This is not at all accurate, IMO (and only IMO). Pionk is beign asked to go against the other team's top players on a regular basis. DeAngelo is not.
 
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Stasis said:
Lol, that ain't far from the truth of it with regards to discussion about him and pretty much any other polarizing player we've had, which at some point in time seems to be pretty much every single one of them.

I'll admit that I don't watch many games this year in full and I'm not really checking out advanced stat lines, TOI, match ups, etc. simply due to lack of time. My sole point was that we're in a new place now, completely. New faces, rookies (including coach!) to the NHL, mid-transition/rebuild. There are so many moving parts to this. I just wanted to simplify it. Bottom line is that Quinn is doing what he think is best be it short term or longer term and we'll never really know the ins and outs of it all or what goes on behind the scenes. We can armchair it all we want but this is what he's doing with what he was given and he has his reasons for doing so. We'll never all agree 100% with what a coach does, not even if we win the cup. Neither will the players.

That was really all I was trying to get across in the Pionk vs. DeAngelo debate. These contests of who's right become so heated and distracting when there's just SO MUCH we don't (and won't, unless much more connected than we let on) know. It can suck as a fan and we question things that happened years ago, or decades ago, all the time. Nothing wrong with that or our own analysis etc. I just don't love these unending loops of infighting and bickering that really can be solved by: "Give it time and we'll see how things evolve." Now more than ever.

I'd like to add that a LOT of people here discount raw emotion and interpersonal relationships among players, coaches, staff, owners, GMs, whoever. To think none of that makes a difference in decisions is ignoring a large part of what team sports are. Particularly when you have 23+ moving parts at all times. Not easy for a new coach to come in and bench Zucc, a NYR staple, regardless of recent play or effort. So much goes on behind the scenes. I don't mean drama. Just a lot of guys each going through their own stuff over the course of a long and stressful tiring season with extremely different reactions to specific situations and extremely different relationships with coaching staff. These all have an effect.

So there's my large emo-ish post explaining why I'm quite content watching things play out and seeing where things fit over the next few seasons, through the highs and the lows. I just see so much negativity and hostility here at times that I feel like I either need to stay away or post a wall of text attempting to bandaid it. Don't mind me, folks. =)
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What do you mean by "don't mind me"? I know i enjoyed reading your rant.......why?......because they were heartfelt while also playing the part of "why cant we all get along"?.

You are absolutely right in regard to the moving parts whilst mentioning the "human factor". We, as fans, tend to forget that part of the equation (my gf has to remind me, of such) as i had been tough on Hank shortly after his wife had their 1st baby.

It would be impossible for Quinnie to FORCE friendships and making each individual play, as a "team". Pretty cool he has been really close with some of the kids, by taking them out for breakfast and finding out what "makes them tick", no need to take out Shatty (for example)

I think he has done an exemplary job, not only teaching hockey in full and what his views are, but as a "person" who KNOWS that getting your hands dirty also means getting to know his players and leading by example in communication with one another and what it takes to become a good "teammate".

Caring for one another, and protecting a teammate when he has been done wrong......is an insurmountable attribute and is a very big part of hockey, till this day. And believe he has exemplified that by doing the breakfast thing, (in a roundabout way) and was like the 1st thing on his list to get across to his "team".
 
Stasis said:
Lol, that ain't far from the truth of it with regards to discussion about him and pretty much any other polarizing player we've had, which at some point in time seems to be pretty much every single one of them.

I'll admit that I don't watch many games this year in full and I'm not really checking out advanced stat lines, TOI, match ups, etc. simply due to lack of time. My sole point was that we're in a new place now, completely. New faces, rookies (including coach!) to the NHL, mid-transition/rebuild. There are so many moving parts to this. I just wanted to simplify it. Bottom line is that Quinn is doing what he think is best be it short term or longer term and we'll never really know the ins and outs of it all or what goes on behind the scenes. We can armchair it all we want but this is what he's doing with what he was given and he has his reasons for doing so. We'll never all agree 100% with what a coach does, not even if we win the cup. Neither will the players.

That was really all I was trying to get across in the Pionk vs. DeAngelo debate. These contests of who's right become so heated and distracting when there's just SO MUCH we don't (and won't, unless much more connected than we let on) know. It can suck as a fan and we question things that happened years ago, or decades ago, all the time. Nothing wrong with that or our own analysis etc. I just don't love these unending loops of infighting and bickering that really can be solved by: "Give it time and we'll see how things evolve." Now more than ever.

I'd like to add that a LOT of people here discount raw emotion and interpersonal relationships among players, coaches, staff, owners, GMs, whoever. To think none of that makes a difference in decisions is ignoring a large part of what team sports are. Particularly when you have 23+ moving parts at all times. Not easy for a new coach to come in and bench Zucc, a NYR staple, regardless of recent play or effort. So much goes on behind the scenes. I don't mean drama. Just a lot of guys each going through their own stuff over the course of a long and stressful tiring season with extremely different reactions to specific situations and extremely different relationships with coaching staff. These all have an effect.

So there's my large emo-ish post explaining why I'm quite content watching things play out and seeing where things fit over the next few seasons, through the highs and the lows. I just see so much negativity and hostility here at times that I feel like I either need to stay away or post a wall of text attempting to bandaid it. Don't mind me, folks. =)
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Wasn’t calling you out at all. I’m pretty much in the same camp as you. I’d play Pionk and ADA all game. We’re rebuilding, we have a chance to see what we have. No harm in that.

That said, people shouldn’t meltdown when Pionk is evaluated as he is. He does seem to be overmatched and he’s not a 1st pairing Dman right now. His PP numbers are absolutely unsustainable. Saying such shouldn’t cause some posters to flip out accusing others as thinking they’re smarter than the coach.
 
True Blue said:
True, but he was my first and greatest comic book hero. And remains to this day. Ok....different DNA.....can I be Wolverine?
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But that is in the real world.

Its the same as the claim that Pionk has great linemates. He is playing with Names-Ziba-Fast, TDA -- and this is definitely not a knock on TDA -- is playing mostly with Kreider-Hayes-Chytil.

I don't think there is any point in getting worked up on this topic. Some more advanced things of the game isn't that easy to understand and some posters can't just follow these type of reasonings, if you can show them numbers it helps, but they will never really get the context and the next second revert to blindly looking at CF% again.

Context and usage don't matter, or at least in any meaningful way. A math professor from Vancouver said it. There it ends, you never get any further with these clowns.
 
True Blue said:
This is not at all accurate, IMO (and only IMO). Pionk is beign asked to go against the other team's top players on a regular basis. DeAngelo is not.
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Their QoC is closer than you think.

DeAngelo has been far from sheltered this year and his underlying numbers are fantastic.
 
Just like it always was with Girardi and Staal, it's not the player that's a problem: it's the perception of the player that's a problem.

People always say "well he's in over his head." When is he going to NOT be in over his head? When is his usage going to be reduced? There's already two vastly superior RHD on the roster, and yet he's being used as our #1 D.

Unless we somehow acquire Doughty and Subban, what's going to convince the organization he isn't our best RHD?
 
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Ola said:
But that is in the real world.

Its the same as the claim that Pionk has great linemates. He is playing with Names-Ziba-Fast, TDA -- and this is definitely not a knock on TDA -- is playing mostly with Kreider-Hayes-Chytil.

I don't think there is any point in getting worked up on this topic. Some more advanced things of the game isn't that easy to understand and some posters can't just follow these type of reasonings, if you can show them numbers it helps, but they will never really get the context and the next second revert to blindly looking at CF% again.

Context and usage don't matter, or at least in any meaningful way. A math professor from Vancouver said it. There it ends, you never get any further with these clowns.
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You're the only one blindly looking at CF%.

You've yet to acknowledge that Pionk is -6 in even strength goals 21 games into the season. Cold hard goals. Nothing advanced about it.

The object of the game is to outscore your opponent. If a player is severely outscored, at what point in your mind does that become a problem?
 
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Just to add some fuel: No undrafted defenseman has recorded more points through his first 50 NHL games than Neal Pionk since at least 1987
 
I will never claim he is great defensively, but what Pionk is doing on offense, is unprecedented (at least in my lifetime)
 
Go Away Staal said:
Never seen the Leetch spin o rama?
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I wasn't watching games live at that time. That was in 1994, if I remember correct. I was 9, living in Europe. No f***ing way I was staying up to watch games live hahahaha. I watched them the next day on Eurosport. But this goal by Pionk is the best I've seen live. Let's clarify. I've watched Rangers games live since 2000 (awful 144p streams with ads bouncing all over the screen)
 
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Machinehead said:
You're the only one blindly looking at CF%.

You've yet to acknowledge that Pionk is -6 in even strength goals 21 games into the season. Cold hard goals. Nothing advanced about it.

The object of the game is to outscore your opponent. If a player is severely outscored, at what point in your mind does that become a problem?
Click to expand...

How many times have I been told that +/- is the most bullshitiest of all hockey stats.
 
Machinehead said:
You're the only one blindly looking at CF%.

You've yet to acknowledge that Pionk is -6 in even strength goals 21 games into the season. Cold hard goals. Nothing advanced about it.

The object of the game is to outscore your opponent. If a player is severely outscored, at what point in your mind does that become a problem?
Click to expand...

You didn't just use +/- did you?

Drew Doughty is a -9. Is he a problem too?
 
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