Player Discussion Neal Pionk: Part II
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Great post gorangers and fair points. But I don’t see the shut down guy getting a bigger portion depression time than the guys that only face these guys during leftovers of shifts.
Also, when sample sizes increase the underlying symptom becomes more obvious. In this case I think it’s obvious that his usage is very tough.
Also, when sample sizes increase the underlying symptom becomes more obvious. In this case I think it’s obvious that his usage is very tough.
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Amazing Kreiderman
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How can someone watch the games and actually think this
He was great in the past he's been ass. (strong vs Isles )
I do not think it is possible to control a player's shift to the precision necessary to make this true, especially over a large sample. Most of the game is on the fly so there is less variability during actual play than that chart would make you believe. Also, there is not that much time between some of the golden and depression times you cited. I do think this would be an interesting study though, comparing the proportion of golden and depression time between players...maybe I'm wrong, wouldn't be the first time. I also appreciate that you questioned statistics using quantitative data, which leads to discussion instead of an annoying back and forth between two completely different mindsets.
I do not refute the second point. Pionk certainly gets relatively tough usage, while also playing with relatively strong teammates. I agree that he is better than his analytics show, because he is far from the worst defenseman in the league. The skill is certainly there, which is something I never really saw with Girardi. However, I also think he's done very little to earn the minutes he's been getting, and I think his teammates would match and surpass Pionk's defensive contribution if given the opportunity.
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Jaromir Jagr
Registered User
Yep, our coaches are idiots.
No need to be snotty and put words in my mouth and I don't think this at all. Quinn has done a great job. But his D deployment is by far the most questionable aspect of his coaching. Pionk-Staal should undoubtedly be our third pair, not our first pair.
Judging by your logic, you must think Staal is the second best D-Man on the team.
- Oct 23, 2014
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Shattenkirk is easily the team's best defenseman at even strengh and on the Powerplay.
1. It’s funny because I would use that argument for the opposite — ie that QoC is washed out when you look at all data from a single season, with the result that the coefficients used to adjust for it threats the players getting nightly and consistent match-up duties against the best of the other team. And not only is the coefficient to small for them, it’s too high for others
2. I definitely agree with Machinehead though that I would like to see the ice time shifted around some. I also think both Shatty and TDA could apply themselves there. And I also think it gives you bad habits to play a game where 72% of your ice time is against a line like Rads-Seguin-Benn with a unit that isn’t that great itself. They will just expose you and create a top notch scoring chance the first millisecond you lose your watch. It’s easy to get caught in a passive mode and defensive mindset instead of being pro active.
3. It’s repeated that Pionk also is playing with very good teammates.
I think there are some asterixes that can be added to a statement like that. In what situations is Zibanejad an elite NHL center? Not when it comes to playing defense and pushing the pace and forcing turnovers to get the puck up ice. He is a very impressive package of skill and speed and is certainly hard to contain in many situations. But there really is a world of difference between like a line of Marchand-Bergeron-Pasternak and like Namestnikov-Ziba-Fast.
FireGerardGallant
The Artist Formerly known as FireDavidQuinn
- Mar 19, 2016
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The coach that consistently giving Cody Mcleod ice time can never be wrong about anything right?Yep, our coaches are idiots.
Pionk's CF%QoT is almost 5% higher than both Shattenkirk and Deangelo. I think this more than makes up for his very slight advantage in CF%QoC (less than 0.5%). Yes, he doesn't have the advantage of playing with the best line in the league, but he does play with relatively better teammates when compared to most of his own team.
JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK
Twenty f*ckin years
- Oct 8, 2010
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I know exactly why is was giving McLeod that ice time and I understand. McLeod is there to be a deterrent to other teams picking on our young skill players. Has been pretty good on the forecheck and not taking a job away from anyone else right now. This team is light on sandpaper. And by the way, he was playing better than most here give him credit.
Irishguy42
Mr. Preachy
Literally doesn't even do this, and it's the only reason he was signed.
Most, if not all, "deterrents" this team has brought in for "protection" don't even provide that.
McLeod in the lineup does not prevent players from taking liberties at Rangers players.
FireGerardGallant
The Artist Formerly known as FireDavidQuinn
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This isn't 1985 you don't need a Mcsorley to protect Gretzky anymore.
He inst even good as a deterrent
East Coast Bias
Registered User
So 3 pages of QOC, you think the coach is dumb!!!, and stats are dumb later, everyone agrees that Pionk is good but overplayed and over his head.
Glad we went through that.
Glad we went through that.
Lol, that ain't far from the truth of it with regards to discussion about him and pretty much any other polarizing player we've had, which at some point in time seems to be pretty much every single one of them.
I'll admit that I don't watch many games this year in full and I'm not really checking out advanced stat lines, TOI, match ups, etc. simply due to lack of time. My sole point was that we're in a new place now, completely. New faces, rookies (including coach!) to the NHL, mid-transition/rebuild. There are so many moving parts to this. I just wanted to simplify it. Bottom line is that Quinn is doing what he think is best be it short term or longer term and we'll never really know the ins and outs of it all or what goes on behind the scenes. We can armchair it all we want but this is what he's doing with what he was given and he has his reasons for doing so. We'll never all agree 100% with what a coach does, not even if we win the cup. Neither will the players.
That was really all I was trying to get across in the Pionk vs. DeAngelo debate. These contests of who's right become so heated and distracting when there's just SO MUCH we don't (and won't, unless much more connected than we let on) know. It can suck as a fan and we question things that happened years ago, or decades ago, all the time. Nothing wrong with that or our own analysis etc. I just don't love these unending loops of infighting and bickering that really can be solved by: "Give it time and we'll see how things evolve." Now more than ever.
I'd like to add that a LOT of people here discount raw emotion and interpersonal relationships among players, coaches, staff, owners, GMs, whoever. To think none of that makes a difference in decisions is ignoring a large part of what team sports are. Particularly when you have 23+ moving parts at all times. Not easy for a new coach to come in and bench Zucc, a NYR staple, regardless of recent play or effort. So much goes on behind the scenes. I don't mean drama. Just a lot of guys each going through their own stuff over the course of a long and stressful tiring season with extremely different reactions to specific situations and extremely different relationships with coaching staff. These all have an effect.
So there's my large emo-ish post explaining why I'm quite content watching things play out and seeing where things fit over the next few seasons, through the highs and the lows. I just see so much negativity and hostility here at times that I feel like I either need to stay away or post a wall of text attempting to bandaid it. Don't mind me, folks. =)
I really appreciate your thoughts on it @Stasis and something to consider for sure concerning the Pionk debate, and coach Quinn. I agree with your content as usual - it`s just rare when you post here, but I can understand that as well. It`s a really good read and have a happy weekend and thanksgiving, because it`s so carefully and well written, and very understanding. 
I`ve my own opinions about Quinn and it`s not an easy task to coach at NHL level at all, but I`ll let it rest because it`s a learning process still for him at this level. I don`t really know if he is consider a long term solution about the management topic, or just in this rebuild stage? However I won`t speculate on it and it`s a really difficult job for him in consider we moved well known players who were part of Rangers for so many years - while moving Brassard, Hagelin, Yandle, Stepan, JT Miller, Nash, Grabner, and Ryan Mc. - so I don`t envy Quinn`s job at all, but he is doing very well so far.
I`ve my own opinions about Quinn and it`s not an easy task to coach at NHL level at all, but I`ll let it rest because it`s a learning process still for him at this level. I don`t really know if he is consider a long term solution about the management topic, or just in this rebuild stage? However I won`t speculate on it and it`s a really difficult job for him in consider we moved well known players who were part of Rangers for so many years - while moving Brassard, Hagelin, Yandle, Stepan, JT Miller, Nash, Grabner, and Ryan Mc. - so I don`t envy Quinn`s job at all, but he is doing very well so far.
haohmaru
boomshakalaka
McLeod isn't a deterrent in any sense of the word.
Joe Kocur was a deterrent. Probert was a deterrent. Mcleod is an AHL'er that can play physically and have a fifty fifty shot at winning a bout with a middleweight. He's not scaring anybody.
Mcleod serves a purpose. He is also very visible in what little time he gets from the 4th line. What rookie do you think is going to materially change the team playing 5 minutes fromthe4th line?
Mcleod is not an enforcer. But his presence makes the rest of the team play a bit bigger.
Irishguy42
Mr. Preachy
The type of play tends to be infectious. Especially when you are trying to create a specific culture and style of play that will seep into the DNA of the younger players.
If I knew DNA was so easily altered I would’ve been spiderman years ago.
Fitzy
Very Stable Genius
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The irony is that Rozsival was exactly what you just described but you wouldn't get of his ass for 7 years.
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