Atoyot
Registered User
- Jul 19, 2013
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Player Discussion: Neal Pionk Part 2
- Thread starter Hunter368
- Start date
I don't know if he's as much as 190, but he plays very solid on his feet. He lacks reach, but he plays a heavier game than Morrissey or Spurgeon or Ellis.
there's a pic of pionk and laine during their warm ups in their tunnel with their gear off. pionk doesn't look 190 in that pic at all lol. ill see if i can find it any edit this post with it
garret9
AKA#VitoCorrelationi
I think Pionk has been head and shoulders the Jets best defender... I also think the lack of skill and performance he's comparable to on the team is making him qualitatively by us and quantitatively by some models look better than he would if he wasn't the only guy playing even to average level.
I like EW's GAR and xGAR. I use it all the time here, and I think it's best when you blend them with xGAR having slight more weighting (from my experience and testing). But, it's good to know models blind spots when using them too, as I spoke about a bit in a recent Hockey-Graphs post.
The two issues I have with GAR and xGAR in the short season come from sample size with using 0 as the season start prior instead of past seasons as at least some of the equation and using only performance throughout the season as determiner of blame/credit of good/bad events.
1) Small sample size is worse when you have a model that refreshes each season. There's pros and cons to that with tradeoffs but one of that is that it makes it volatile and whatnot, especially GAR that's influenced in part by PDO. That's because the twins wanted it to be something that says what you've done, not what you will do and who you are. That's fine and 100% useful, but it's not great and answering the latter two questions.
2) With it only using performance of that season as info (plus environmental impacts) it doesn't know to bias itself for forwards or defenders in the right situations. We know from studies that forwards drive offense more and defenders drive defense more, but this model methodology will take a while to get that correct, ESPECIALLY in situations where you have a team with very different levels in quality and depth of forwards vs defenders (both when F>D and D>F).
An additional problem it means comparing players outside of each bubble is useless. You don't have crossover, so a 2GAR in the North Division != 2GAR in the East, etc.
All this to say I think he's legit been the best defender on the Jets. 100% and the models show that. I'm cautious to it saying he's actually a legit #1D calibre defender, especially when a model that is stronger at those specific problems I had above paints him as middle of the road (but still doing better than normal):
I like EW's GAR and xGAR. I use it all the time here, and I think it's best when you blend them with xGAR having slight more weighting (from my experience and testing). But, it's good to know models blind spots when using them too, as I spoke about a bit in a recent Hockey-Graphs post.
The two issues I have with GAR and xGAR in the short season come from sample size with using 0 as the season start prior instead of past seasons as at least some of the equation and using only performance throughout the season as determiner of blame/credit of good/bad events.
1) Small sample size is worse when you have a model that refreshes each season. There's pros and cons to that with tradeoffs but one of that is that it makes it volatile and whatnot, especially GAR that's influenced in part by PDO. That's because the twins wanted it to be something that says what you've done, not what you will do and who you are. That's fine and 100% useful, but it's not great and answering the latter two questions.
2) With it only using performance of that season as info (plus environmental impacts) it doesn't know to bias itself for forwards or defenders in the right situations. We know from studies that forwards drive offense more and defenders drive defense more, but this model methodology will take a while to get that correct, ESPECIALLY in situations where you have a team with very different levels in quality and depth of forwards vs defenders (both when F>D and D>F).
An additional problem it means comparing players outside of each bubble is useless. You don't have crossover, so a 2GAR in the North Division != 2GAR in the East, etc.
All this to say I think he's legit been the best defender on the Jets. 100% and the models show that. I'm cautious to it saying he's actually a legit #1D calibre defender, especially when a model that is stronger at those specific problems I had above paints him as middle of the road (but still doing better than normal):
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Channelcat
Mennonite
I don't know why its so hard to get real numbers from the NHL, but in my estimation he is only about 175. Of course I could also be mistaken.
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I think if you have great overall skills, at 175 lbs, you can still be a great # 1 defenseman. You have to rely on great stickwork, working angles, and great skating, as well as good zone exits. You just cannot continually go bashing into the corners with the big forwards. I would just play Pionk with a bigger rugged defenseman, so we have an offset.
Paul Coffey and I believe Chris Chelios were around the 175 lb mark, and both were Hall of Famers, and great defenseman.
Teemusalami204
Registered User
Pionk is becoming our best Dman. I hope he accepts around the same money as morrisey
Pionk has balls of steel , that's where the extra weight is coming from .
Boonk
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- Oct 10, 2017
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I'm 165lb at 5'10" and I've met Josh Morrissey in person. He is about the same size as NP, and I was definitely not almost as big as him. There's no way NP is 170 just by comparing the bodies on TV.
nobody imp0rtant
Registered pessimist
- May 23, 2018
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How about we wait and see how Pionk handles himself in the playoff grinder before opening the vault for this guy?
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I have to agree with this, as he got pushed around quite badly by the Flames in last years playoffs. I hope he toughens up a bit, and it sure looks like he has this year -- playing more physically IMO.
- Mar 10, 2010
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I like how you are assuming the sale on making the playoffs this season.
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nobody imp0rtant
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Guerzy
I'm a fricken baby
- Jan 16, 2005
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The hits Pionk has been throwing recently are wild. Love watching it tbh and it's a side of his game I hope he keeps. Would love to see it from Morrissey as well like he once upon a time played with that same edge.
I gotta say, when that Trouba trade happened I was pretty underwhelmed given what Rangers fans were saying about Pionk as well as what the analytics showed, which I don't believe were anything to write home about (going off memory here). But I distinctively remember @Jet backing Pionk 100%, and I gotta give it to him because his opinions and reports at the time have beyond stood the test of time to this point.
I gotta say, when that Trouba trade happened I was pretty underwhelmed given what Rangers fans were saying about Pionk as well as what the analytics showed, which I don't believe were anything to write home about (going off memory here). But I distinctively remember @Jet backing Pionk 100%, and I gotta give it to him because his opinions and reports at the time have beyond stood the test of time to this point.
Every once in a while a blind squirrel finds a nut
voyageur
Hockey fanatic
- Jul 10, 2011
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Every once in a while a blind squirrel finds a nut
That's how I feel too because I definitely called him before the trade even, identifying his speed, that St. Louis was able to attack our defense and eliminate us from the playoffs because we lacked speed on defense. However I've never been part of any band. March to my own drum, like Thoreau said, about Civil Disobedience, or something.
Speed is the key to improving our defense, the only thing that we have lost is the ability to box out the front of the net like we used. That's where I think Forbort has been good in support.
as a ranger fan i hated to see go for trouba. i'm glad to hear that you guys are enjoying him.
Hunter368
RIP lomiller1, see you in the next life buddy.
- Nov 8, 2011
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Pionk is a good player, not top pairing, but still a very solid top 4 guy. Trouba can be good also, but IMO he's not pairing either and needs someone paired with him chemistry wise that helps him........like he had here with Josh.
He's playing a more complete game this year because he's in for a big payday. Money has a way of motivating people.
1stDan
Registered User
- Jan 6, 2018
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Ok... so a few years back I started a thread called 'Kyle Connor Is A Machine' . Let's just say he turned into a pretty good player. And let's just say he signed a nice contract. And let's just say that became the main player discussion thread for KC.
Back to Pionk.
The man plays his heart out. He has skill and poise yes... but most of all he is an animal. His compete level cannot be taught. We need to keep him here.
Straight up clotheslined by McDavid's stick and later that game he is crushing Draisaitl in the dying minutes.
I miss that goofball Lemmy. But the Trouba trade is a big feather in Chevy's cap. Anyway, I don't know if it will help the luck of re signing Neal or not... but hey.
Neal Pionk is an Animal
Back to Pionk.
The man plays his heart out. He has skill and poise yes... but most of all he is an animal. His compete level cannot be taught. We need to keep him here.
Straight up clotheslined by McDavid's stick and later that game he is crushing Draisaitl in the dying minutes.
I miss that goofball Lemmy. But the Trouba trade is a big feather in Chevy's cap. Anyway, I don't know if it will help the luck of re signing Neal or not... but hey.
Neal Pionk is an Animal
Teemusalami204
Registered User
jetsforever
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- Dec 14, 2013
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Bit small yeah although he's been good this season
(TBH Trouba probably deserves the "animal" title more based on playstyle)
1stDan
Registered User
- Jan 6, 2018
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Edgar Halliwax
aka Marvin Candle
Is there ANYONE who could have foreseen how damned good #4 would be when we acquired him? Trouba has regressed (at best, he hasn't gotten better) and Pionk just keeps getting better. Man, is he fun to watch!
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