News Article: NCC putting in a lot of conditions for the downtown site

[Cosmix]

The French company was Alstom and they provided the Citadis Spirit light rail vehicles. Alstom would have some involvement in "rail systems" like the catenary system, traction power substations, signal system, & track design but even a lot of that design & and all construction work would involve other companies.

The planning of the routes (ROW), station locations and a lot of other things would not be handled by Alstom and would have be handled much earlier in the planning phase of the project. So planning would have been done prior to the appearance of Alstom. Planning phase activities would have been handled by the Owner’s Engineer and the City of Ottawa. The planning phase is where the track route & ROW acquisitions and that kind of thing would be done.

Construction of stations and other things would have been handled by civil & structural engineering & construction firms that were part of the Rideau Transit Group consortium. Oversight would be handled by the City of Ottawa & the Owner’s Engineer.

This was a Design/Build/Operate & Maintain (DBOM) type project, so that philosophy is for the owner to specify more performance type requirements versus detailed specifications. In general, there isn’t a lot of rail expertise in Canada, and the light rail projects in the past have been in Western Canada e.g., Vancouver (kind of hybrid system), Calgary & Edmonton.

Toronto (within the city) has traditionally been a subway, street car city with commuter rail handled by Go Transit (its diesel versus electrified) until more recently, and Montreal is mostly subway with a little commuter rail. Commuter rail is heavy rail (versus light rail), so it's a different animal and infrastructure is more like freight rail (Class 1). I think the only electrified commuter rail system in Montreal is the Deux Montagne line, but don’t quote me on that.

I am a big fan of the design of the Light Rail stations. They are super and look oh so beautiful! They provide wonderful protection from the wind, rain, cold and snow.

 

[IpsoPostFacto]

It is high time that anyone who works in the area of public policy as it relates to public transit, must as condition of employment, use public transit.

Other than that, it's getting too easy now. I just have to look at one of my posts from the few years and voila. If I could make it happen, a few blocks of downtown being vacated by the feds would be leveled and a rink, hotel, condos, whatever it is would be built. Rail is already there; streets going in all directions; connection to Gatineau; parking, and most importantly - a 10 minute walk for moi!

This one is only from a year ago:
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I always preferred a real downtown rink surrounded by an existing mix of pre and post game entertainment - upscale, dive bar, sorts bar, expensive restaurant, street meat, the whole zoo.

 

[JackieDaytona]

Reality and legal liabilities!

Booooooo
You must work at the ncc.

 

[Stylizer1]

Weird aside, but the city is actually pretty strict about where hives can be placed if the intention is to harvest the honey from the hives. I worked in an office that had a company install a couple of hives on the property, and they were gone within a few months.

Municipal regs can be odd sometimes

Again, a bush is not an office and hornets are not bees. Also, just because Bob asks for money in a cup doesn't make him the accountant.

 

[Relapsing]

Again, a bush is not an office and hornets are not bees. Also, just because Bob asks for money in a cup doesn't make him the accountant.

I'll have you know, his name is Dusty Randall and he regularly used Excel when he was employable.

 

[Relapsing]

It is high time that anyone who works in the area of public policy as it relates to public transit, must as condition of employment, use public transit.

Thats one of the reasons I'm happy to keep voting for Leiper. He's still biking or using transit to get around. Definitely makes him a better ward councilor.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

TD place has 1000.

Montreal and Toronto have ~250, but there are a ton of options available (garages and surfaced lots) within 10 minutes walking.

Ottawa has those, but not as many, and they're a bit further away from the proposed site.

I'd expect a compromise of 750-1000 spots at much higher prices than what we currently have at the CTC. A portion of that cost will be sold as a "tax" to benefit transit/pedestrians.

If you currently valet... you'll be fine. You won't have to rub shoulders with the commoners on the train, don't worry.

In the previous incarnation of the MOU, between the NCC and Rendezvous Lebreton, under the previous owner…. The plans were for 500 parking spots… and most of those were designated for Arena Management and Sens Management and players….. so there will probably not be a compromise of the sort you’re suggesting…..


The Ottawa Senators' long-awaited downtown move to LeBreton Flats is a step in the right direction for the franchise. Swapping the suburban sprawl of Kanata for a modern arena in the heart of the city brings promise: better transit access, vibrant surroundings, and a renewed connection to the community.

But as exciting as the project is, there’s an off-ice issue that can’t be ignored — parking.

Early plans suggest the new arena may include only around 500 parking spots. That’s a dramatic drop from the 5,635 spaces available at the Canadian Tire Centre, and it raises a red flag. While the site’s proximity to O-Train stations like Bayview and Pimisi is a major advantage, the reality is that thousands of fans still prefer — or need — to drive.

The Senators have voiced concern, and rightly so. Downtown arenas across North America have succeeded with reduced parking, but that success hinges on robust transit options, thoughtful urban planning, and nearby alternatives. Ottawa’s transit infrastructure is improving, but it's not yet at the level where we can assume seamless game-night travel for everyone.

A downtown arena should aim to enhance the fan experience, not complicate it. If this project is to reach its full potential, planners must find a better balance — integrating underground lots, shared-use facilities, or nearby parking solutions. Relying on 500 spaces alone could turn a dream relocation into a logistical nightmare.

The new arena is a bold play for the future. Let’s make sure parking isn’t the penalty box that ruins the game.

 

[jbeck5]

Seems you missed the point….. once relocating to downtown, the Arena will be on the LRT Line, if built at Lebreton…and the poster I quoted said he wants to drive to games, and will not if there is no parking…. So for him not going to a game, because he won’t be able to drive, there will be at least 25 who will have no problem using the LRT…..

But people's work downtown is on the LRT line yet something like 80-90% of workers use their car.

These numbers can be off a bit, but I keep seeing that 90% of Canadians or North Americans commute by car. I'm assume it's a bit higher rurally(probably almost 100%) while maybe being closer to 80-85% in the cities giving a 90% overall.

So if ~80 of people would rather take their car downtown in much worse traffic(100k+ ppl) than take the light rail, why would this reverse for a hockey game?

If anything, people would be more likely to take the longer transit during a long 8-9 hour day compared to a shorter 3 hour event because of the percentage of time...(Like how people say "if I have to drive several hours to go to the cottage, I don't wanna go for the day, I want to spend a few nights"

Remember,it's not that the sens have to provide all this parking, but the parking will be available to meet demand around the arena via 3rd party with a 5-10 min walk.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

But people's work downtown is on the LRT line yet something like 80-90% of workers use their car.

These numbers can be off a bit, but I keep seeing that 90% of Canadians or North Americans commute by car. I'm assume it's a bit higher rurally(probably almost 100%) while maybe being closer to 80-85% in the cities giving a 90% overall.

So if ~80 of people would rather take their car downtown in much worse traffic(100k+ ppl) than take the light rail, why would this reverse for a hockey game?

If anything, people would be more likely to take the longer transit during a long 8-9 hour day compared to a shorter 3 hour event because of the percentage of time...(Like how people say "if I have to drive several hours to go to the cottage, I don't wanna go for the day, I want to spend a few nights"

Remember,it's not that the sens have to provide all this parking, but the parking will be available to meet demand around the arena via 3rd party with a 5-10 min walk.

I work in the market and live not far from the Bayview station. Normally I take the LRT or (once it's warm enough) ride my bike. To me it's a no-brainer, I don't see how anyone would choose to drive down here... which leads me to believe that lack of parking near the LRT stations themselves really is the reason.

I get why people would say they prefer their cars to public transit to go to a game.

But, if you imagine they have 5000 or so parking spots at/near the location then that means 5000 cars all trying to get to the Queensway via Bronson or Parkdale or Churchill etc... at the exact same time. If you think getting out of the CTC parking lot is bad now, this will be 10x worse.

 

[Stylizer1]

I work in the market and live not far from the Bayview station. Normally I take the LRT or (once it's warm enough) ride my bike. To me it's a no-brainer, I don't see how anyone would choose to drive down here... which leads me to believe that lack of parking near the LRT stations themselves really is the reason.

I get why people would say they prefer their cars to public transit to go to a game.

But, if you imagine they have 5000 or so parking spots at/near the location then that means 5000 cars all trying to get to the Queensway via Bronson or Parkdale or Churchill etc... at the exact same time. If you think getting out of the CTC parking lot is bad now, this will be 10x worse.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

I work in the market and live not far from the Bayview station. Normally I take the LRT or (once it's warm enough) ride my bike. To me it's a no-brainer, I don't see how anyone would choose to drive down here... which leads me to believe that lack of parking near the LRT stations themselves really is the reason.

I get why people would say they prefer their cars to public transit to go to a game.

But, if you imagine they have 5000 or so parking spots at/near the location then that means 5000 cars all trying to get to the Queensway via Bronson or Parkdale or Churchill etc... at the exact same time. If you think getting out of the CTC parking lot is bad now, this will be 10x worse.

It is almost as if the people planning aren't stupid.

Unfortunately, the smart people don't usually get to make the final call, that is up to the craven lawyers and sociopathic politicians & co.

 

[jbeck5]

I work in the market and live not far from the Bayview station. Normally I take the LRT or (once it's warm enough) ride my bike. To me it's a no-brainer, I don't see how anyone would choose to drive down here... which leads me to believe that lack of parking near the LRT stations themselves really is the reason.

I get why people would say they prefer their cars to public transit to go to a game.

But, if you imagine they have 5000 or so parking spots at/near the location then that means 5000 cars all trying to get to the Queensway via Bronson or Parkdale or Churchill etc... at the exact same time. If you think getting out of the CTC parking lot is bad now, this will be 10x worse.

You're forgetting way more people leave the downtown core at the same time...and I'm still making it home to Orleans in half an hour. That's quicker than transit, which would include a local bus.

Like others have said, they need to open up bigger park and rides at Blair and st Laurent during game nights.

Then I would park and ride at st Laurent and take a train a few stops into downtown for the game.

Without that park and ride, I'm driving to a parking garage,paying $20 and getting to the game and from the game in 30 mins each.

 

[Stylizer1]

You're forgetting way more people leave the downtown core at the same time...and I'm still making it home to Orleans in half an hour. That's quicker than transit, which would include a local bus.

Like others have said, they need to open up bigger park and rides at Blair and st Laurent during game nights.

Then I would park and ride at st Laurent and take a train a few stops into downtown for the game.

Without that park and ride, I'm driving to a parking garage,paying $20 and getting to the game and from the game in 30 mins each.

I think you are assuming the best case scenario like being the first person out of the building and making all of the lights after the game. From lebreton to Innes/Portabelo on the best commute is at least 20-25 minutes.

 

[Micklebot]

I work in the market and live not far from the Bayview station. Normally I take the LRT or (once it's warm enough) ride my bike. To me it's a no-brainer, I don't see how anyone would choose to drive down here... which leads me to believe that lack of parking near the LRT stations themselves really is the reason.

I get why people would say they prefer their cars to public transit to go to a game.

But, if you imagine they have 5000 or so parking spots at/near the location then that means 5000 cars all trying to get to the Queensway via Bronson or Parkdale or Churchill etc... at the exact same time. If you think getting out of the CTC parking lot is bad now, this will be 10x worse.

Public transit is great when you have easy access to it and a destination that isn't far from a station, when I worked downtown 2 mins from a stop, it made zero sense to pay twice as much for a parking pass to save me the maybe 10 min walk from my house the the transit way (I could catch a local bus to the connection but I preferred getting the walk in), and maybe I'd save 10 mins of commute.

The thing is, I made a conscious decision to buy a house that had good transit options, I had no connections to worry about, just hopped on a bus, and got of at my stop. The people who complain most about transit are the ones that are not working or living along the major routes, so not really your situation it seems. I will say that when they moved my office to the other side of town, busing became unrealistic. I went from a 30-35 min commute with no transfers, to what is now a 1h30 - 2h commute with two transfers. I'm not complaining that OC transpo doesn't serve my needs, because I choose to live where I live and choose not to find a close place to work, but the fact that the train starts at blair and ends at bayview adds two transfers to a trip that the old 95 would have done without a transfer. Thankfully the extensions should help with that.

.

 

[Stylizer1]

Public transit is great when you have easy access to it and a destination that isn't far from a station, when I worked downtown 2 mins from a stop, it made zero sense to pay twice as much for a parking pass to save me the maybe 10 min walk from my house the the transit way (I could catch a local bus to the connection but I preferred getting the walk in), and maybe I'd save 10 mins of commute.

The thing is, I made a conscious decision to buy a house that had good transit options, I had no connections to worry about, just hopped on a bus, and got of at my stop. The people who complain most about transit are the ones that are not working or living along the major routes, so not really your situation it seems. I will say that when they moved my office to the other side of town, busing became unrealistic. I went from a 30-35 min commute with no transfers, to what is now a 1h30 - 2h commute with two transfers. I'm not complaining that OC transpo doesn't serve my needs, because I choose to live where I live and choose not to find a close place to work, but the fact that the train starts at blair and ends at bayview adds two transfers to a trip that the old 95 would have done without a transfer. Thankfully the extensions should help with that.

.

Well for years people got used to having a pretty reliable service, mostly down the street from their homes and usually were able to catch 1 bus straight down town. All of those routes are cut now and the ones which at least could still get you to where you needed to go have been pretty much eliminated. Most people don't live near major routes.

 

[Micklebot]

I think you are assuming the best case scenario like being the first person out of the building and making all of the lights after the game. From lebreton to Innes/Portabelo on the best commute is at least 20-25 minutes.

While that's true, the transit option is ~45mins on a bus/Train plus any walking from the stops and waiting for a transfer.

 

[Stylizer1]

While that's true, the transit option is ~45mins on a bus/Train plus any walking from the stops and waiting for a transfer.

what?

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

You're forgetting way more people leave the downtown core at the same time...

Do they?

I'd say the end of day downtown rush hour goes from about 3:30 (????) to about 6:00pm or maybe even 6:30. That's far different than the thong of people that empty out of the arena immediately after the final buzzer.

To be fair about my complaints about driving downtown -- many days are okay, I get home in about 20 minutes. But if there's any kind of snarl up then it becomes gridlock and my commute becomes 45 minutes to an hour. So it's those occasional bad days make me try to avoid it altogether.

But the underlying reason for that gridlock is going to be true after a game. All the streets that will feed outwards (Scott St, O'Connor, Bronson, Gladstone, Carling, Parkdale, Churchill) are just not high capacity streets. Too many lights, too many cross walks, too narrow.

 

[Micklebot]

what?

Train is about 25 mins from Blair to Lebreton, the bus from Blair to Portobello is 20 mins, so 45 mins on a vehicle, but you could end up waiting 5 mins if you don't make the connection,

edit: just realized you said portobello and innes, I think that adds ~5 mins

 

[Stylizer1]

Train is about 25 mins from Blair to Lebreton, the bus from Blair to Portobello is 20 mins, so 45 mins on a vehicle, but you could end up waiting 5 mins if you don't make the connection,

View attachment 1041085

Technically, right?

 

[coladin]

Ottawa benefits from not having a lot of heavy industry and has a government civil service, that while not well paid, isn’t really very poor. It also doesn’t have the racial strife on the same scale as other cities i.e., in the U.S. In a lot of cities I’ve spent time in, there’s a lot of areas of the city where you don’t even think of going to. It's both dangerous and rather decrepit (slum). Older parts of the city and the buildings are just decaying. I see buildings that are falling apart and should be leveled, but that doesn’t happen for whatever reasons. I guess I’m thinking of the so called "rust belt" in northeast U.S. for some of the things I’ve mentioned here.

I also think that having a city plan for many decades that includes parks, green space and the mere fact that there’s been a plan is more a net positive than a negative. Outside of the northeast U.S., you have some really sprawling cities like Dallas/Fort Worth (DFW metro complex) that are newer cities, but are sprawling. To get from the west side of Fort Worth to say the north east side of Dallas (e.g., Richardson), pack a lunch because it will take a hour & a half to get there. And they have plenty of impressive freeways all over the place there. That is problematic for workers (even my ex wife as an example). Don’t think they had any urban plan there at least none that I heard of in the years I spent there. You also don’t have a brown smog hanging over a large city that you do in a few west coast U.S. cities. Some of the things I’ve mentioned in this paragraph are not atypical of other cities west of the Mississippi I’d think.

Anyhow, that is just my point of view, but perhaps it's built on a wider perspective. That wider perspective may contrast or be attributable to having lived in more cities than one all of my life. To drudge up a well known cliche, the grass is always greener on the side of the fence, except of course when you’ve spent time on the other side of the pasture/fence.

I think the problem many city planners and plans that were crafted let’s say in or around the 1950s (if they even had a metro/regional plan) is they underestimated population growth and city sprawl. I agree that train & street cars were often too quickly replaced by buses, but in part, a factor in those decisions is the lack of anticipation of the population growth. Ironically, many cities had street cars which were removed and replaced by buses. But, in the last couple of decades, many cities (at least in the U.S.) have implemented street car systems. When they build rali systems, they often find that there is urban development that grows & is developed very near to those rail systems. From a more historical perspective, most of the growth of Long Island happened in conjunction of the building of commuter rail, now called Long Island Railroad (LIRR).

When you build a rail system, the planning has to be based on 50 years out, not 1, 5 or even 10 years after the system is built. To use an extreme example, you are not going to fix New York city's transportation & commute problems by building more roads. I used to commute from Philadelphia to New Jersey & New York, and even within the Philly metro area by rail a lot & never used a car. Parking is like $50/day, so that was one reason right there, plus you never saved any time driving your car. Some employers even use monthly passes as an employee benefit. I know that New York/Philadelphia is a different situation, but I wonder what the population of Ottawa metro area will be in 50 or 60 years from now?

I appreciate this, thank you. Like I said, I love it here, and when this city makes transit sensible, people will use it, that is my hope because everyone will benefit

 

[Micklebot]

Technically, right?

I'm comparing best commute to best commute, both can be delayed. If there's an accident on the highway, the train will get you home much faster. If the train breaks down, you're far better off in a car.

The biggest advantage the train has is it won't be impacted by traffic or construction, so rush hour with an accident shouldn't matter, you're still only looking at 25 mins from Pisimi to blair. Once extended, maybe add what, 10-15 mins to get all the way to trim? That's easily a 50 mins drive during rush hour, and rockets up if there's accidents

 

[Micklebot]

I appreciate this, thank you. Like I said, I love it here, and when this city makes transit sensible, people will use it, that is my hope because everyone will benefit

The phased approach to building the train lines really made a terrible first impression of what LRT can be, it doesn't help that imo the express bus setup we had was actually really convenient, so we went from something that was actually a very good solution to the moment but was going to run into problems as the city grew, to a really poor iteration of what LRT could be where the vast majority of commuters got a downgrade in service.

People would have still complained if we started from day one with trains running from Trim all the way to Moodie and beyond, but I really don't like the idea of everyone east of Blair all coming to transfer at one station.

 

[Stylizer1]

The phased approach to building the train lines really made a terrible first impression of what LRT can be, it doesn't help that imo the express bus setup we had was actually really convenient, so we went from something that was actually a very good solution to the moment but was going to run into problems as the city grew, to a really poor iteration of what LRT could be where the vast majority of commuters got a downgrade in service.

People would have still complained if we started from day one with trains running from Trim all the way to Moodie and beyond, but I really don't like the idea of everyone east of Blair all coming to transfer at one station.

regardless it still won't be as efficient as the transit system.

 

[Masked]

The phased approach to building the train lines really made a terrible first impression of what LRT can be, it doesn't help that imo the express bus setup we had was actually really convenient, so we went from something that was actually a very good solution to the moment but was going to run into problems as the city grew, to a really poor iteration of what LRT could be where the vast majority of commuters got a downgrade in service.

In a perfect world the 95 and 96 bus routes would have been replaced by high capacity trains running very frequently so that the express buses would stop at the train stations and passengers could have rather seamless transfers to the trains.

That is decades away in the west end. Maybe Orleans will have it soon but the trains are still rather unreliable, capacity might be an issue and the downtown stations seem to take forever to escape.