News Article: NCC putting in a lot of conditions for the downtown site

[Big Muddy]

This whole idea of a downtown arena, and Ottawa needing a downtwon arena, is dumb.

Ottawa is not designed for a downtwon arena, and it never will be. It will be a massive collapse of a fan base once they find out they cannot get there reliably and quickly. You cannot unscramble the egg. Greber plan f***ed this city so badly, and now , contravening the design of the actualy city, not this mythical city with this mythical arena with mythical tranist, they want to put an arena downtown in a city dominated by cars, not because Ottawa has some car fanatics, but due to transit sucking balls, unreliable, not enought routes, and very slow and inefficient.

This arena has to be put where there is parking and LRT. That's how this will work. I ain't walking 10 minutes anywhere in the winter, f*** that. And all those people in the first bowl won't either. If they don't construct this thing with a stop underneath it, then don't waste your money and time.

This is the stupidest city every designed becasue we let some guy from France dictate to dumb Canadians of the day on how to make Ottawa a capital city, and royally f***ed up with removing what was a transit , train friendly city, streetcar city, into this suburban shitshow because the city loves DC money. They priced people out of the privileged core of within the Greenbelt and forced people to build outside of it. And commute. They should have grenaded that plan and instead of building Kanata, that suburb should be in the bloody Greenbelt. But you cannot unscramble the egg.

No one with any money lives downtown, and the clientele of the Senators resides outside of the Greenbelt. And with the condo market collapse, all those towers that were propsed tobe built will not see the light of day. No one wants shoeboxes downtown . They want homes for families and family sized dwellings in those new downtwon buildings. Byt let's cater to the 1,000 Sens fans in ....Gatineau? Well at least they are closer now.

I hope the NCC delays this thing as it will buy me time to get to the CTC for the next 10 years. Stutzle will never play a game in this new arena. Neither will Sanderson. Fine by me

The French company was Alstom and they provided the Citadis Spirit light rail vehicles. Alstom would have some involvement in "rail systems" like the catenary system, traction power substations, signal system, & track design but even a lot of that design & and all construction work would involve other companies.

The planning of the routes (ROW), station locations and a lot of other things would not be handled by Alstom and would have be handled much earlier in the planning phase of the project. So planning would have been done prior to the appearance of Alstom. Planning phase activities would have been handled by the Owner’s Engineer and the City of Ottawa. The planning phase is where the track route & ROW acquisitions and that kind of thing would be done.

Construction of stations and other things would have been handled by civil & structural engineering & construction firms that were part of the Rideau Transit Group consortium. Oversight would be handled by the City of Ottawa & the Owner’s Engineer.

This was a Design/Build/Operate & Maintain (DBOM) type project, so that philosophy is for the owner to specify more performance type requirements versus detailed specifications. In general, there isn’t a lot of rail expertise in Canada, and the light rail projects in the past have been in Western Canada e.g., Vancouver (kind of hybrid system), Calgary & Edmonton.

Toronto (within the city) has traditionally been a subway, street car city with commuter rail handled by Go Transit (its diesel versus electrified) until more recently, and Montreal is mostly subway with a little commuter rail. Commuter rail is heavy rail (versus light rail), so it's a different animal and infrastructure is more like freight rail (Class 1). I think the only electrified commuter rail system in Montreal is the Deux Montagne line, but don’t quote me on that.

 

[Relapsing]

Traffic is not commute.

I can think of a few hundred thousand people who would probably disagree with you!

if they can make LRT, then great. But the park and rides will need to be able to accommodate the fans, because I don't see that happening right now. Yes, we are 6 years away, and one can dream for a stop that is either underneath or built into the arena like the airport, for those I can be more on board with it. But I plan on driving and I hope there will be enough spots on site

While I 100% would prefer Pimisi or Bayview Stations be enveloped by the Arena itself, That ship has sailed given the location they're discussing (on Albert between Preston and City Centre Ave).

While there's lots of blame to go around for the lack of a station located within the building itself, I think EM et al shoulder most of the blame for dragging their feet and missing a clear opportunity.

I'm sure, Coladin, there will be more than enough parking spaces and a world class valet service for you to use to your hearts content.

The rest of us are not ultimately concerned with whether or not the proposed location will service the rich in this City and their very specific requirements to enjoy a night out.

 

[coladin]

The French company was Alstom and they provided the Citadis Spirit light rail vehicles. Alstom would have some involvement in "rail systems" like the catenary system, traction power substations, signal system, & track design but even a lot of that design & and all construction work would involve other companies.

The planning of the routes (ROW), station locations and a lot of other things would not be handled by Alstom and would have be handled much earlier in the planning phase of the project. So planning would have been done prior to the appearance of Alstom. Planning phase activities would have been handled by the Owner’s Engineer and the City of Ottawa. The planning phase is where the track route & ROW acquisitions and that kind of thing would be done.

Construction of stations and other things would have been handled by civil & structural engineering & construction firms that were part of the Rideau Transit Group consortium. Oversight would be handled by the City of Ottawa & the Owner’s Engineer.

This was a Design/Build/Operate & Maintain (DBOM) type project, so that philosophy is for the owner to specify more performance type requirements versus detailed specifications. In general, there isn’t a lot of rail expertise in Canada, and the light rail projects in the past have been in Western Canada e.g., Vancouver (kind of hybrid system), Calgary & Edmonton.

Toronto (within the city) has traditionally been a subway, street car city with commuter rail handled by Go Transit (its diesel versus electrified) until more recently, and Montreal is mostly subway with a little commuter rail. Commuter rail is heavy rail (versus light rail), so it's a different animal and infrastructure is more like freight rail (Class 1). I think the only electrified commuter rail system in Montreal is the Deux Montagne line, but don’t quote me on that.

All good what you said, but I was referencing the Greber Plan that created the Greenbelt...

 

[Big Muddy]

All good what you said, but I was referencing the Greber Plan that created the Greenbelt...

OK. Perhaps the reference to French company made me think it was Alstom you were talking about. So, no worries.

I’ve lived in several cities in both U.S. & Canada, and spent considerable time working on projects in scores of other cities in North America. Generally I would say Ottawa is one of the better cities I seen & spent time in. Hence, I can’t throw many stones at the Ottawa environment. Each to his own I suppose. People have different views on what is important.

 

[coladin]

I can think of a few hundred thousand people who would probably disagree with you!




While I 100% would prefer Pimisi or Bayview Stations be enveloped by the Arena itself, That ship has sailed given the location they're discussing (on Albert between Preston and City Centre Ave).

While there's lots of blame to go around for the lack of a station located within the building itself, I think EM et al shoulder most of the blame for dragging their feet and missing a clear opportunity.

I'm sure, Coladin, there will be more than enough parking spaces and a world class valet service for you to use to your hearts content.

The rest of us are not ultimately concerned with whether or not the proposed location will service the rich in this City and their very specific requirements to enjoy a night out.

I truly don't care about your thoughts about me using valet. Like I said earlier, I have done my time in Lot 7, running out of there like the CTC was on fire. I have done my time in Lot 2, better, but still, you aren't seeing the 3 stars, ever. If you can valet, then that provides the best experience short of Parking Lot 1. Don't cry about it.

Anyways, we don't know which way the extra acreage is going to go, so there may be a way to connect them, hell, maybe going underground, a pathway may be possible. There really is no excuse, considering the scope of the project , to make this special. There is absolutely nothing there to begin with. Sure, we can all try and contain our excitment once Boston Pizza/Jack Astor's/Pizza Pizza/McDonald's/Subway/ make this place "special", but having this in the middle of noweher , near nothing will be a challenge to create something that is organic

 

[coladin]

OK. Perhaps the reference to French company made me think it was Alstom you were talking about. So, no worries.

I’ve lived in several cities in both U.S. & Canada, and spent considerable time working on projects in scores of other cities in North America. Generally I would say Ottawa is one of the better cities I seen & spent time in. Hence, I can’t throw many stones at the Ottawa environment. Each to his own I suppose. People have different views on what is important.

In what sense is Ottawa better than other cities in the developed world? I'm genuinely curious. Look , I love Ottawa. Great place to raise a family, safe and clean. But the transit is a disaster. I would like to know how Ottawa compares with other major cities

 

[Relapsing]

I truly don't care about your thoughts about me using valet. Like I said earlier, I have done my time in Lot 7, running out of there like the CTC was on fire. I have done my time in Lot 2, better, but still, you aren't seeing the 3 stars, ever. If you can valet, then that provides the best experience short of Parking Lot 1. Don't cry about it.

Anyways, we don't know which way the extra acreage is going to go, so there may be a way to connect them, hell, maybe going underground, a pathway may be possible. There really is no excuse, considering the scope of the project , to make this special. There is absolutely nothing there to begin with. Sure, we can all try and contain our excitment once Boston Pizza/Jack Astor's/Pizza Pizza/McDonald's/Subway/ make this place "special", but having this in the middle of noweher , near nothing will be a challenge to create something that is organic

Ok fair, but you keep bringing it up, and talking about how important it is and this and that. I get it's a big deal for you, but it's a small part of the overall discussion.

Andlauer would be crazy not to push for a direct covered connection. The creek that separates the site is a problem for a tunnel so probably an overpass which is just fine

 

[Stylizer1]

Rubbing shoulder shas nothing to do with it , you twat. I'm not waiting an hour to get out of the parking lot.
I have no issues taking school busses to Lansdowne, but that is not 22-30 times a year.

 

[Cosmix]

Walking and cycling paths are already divided at pimisi station. I expect they'll extend that split further as LeBreton develops.

I hope the powers that be "enforce" the rules with meaningful immediate penalties.

 

[Cosmix]

What do you want, bicycle licenses?

How many incidents are there in Ottawa every year between cyclists and pedestrians? How many on an already divided path? Feels like a mole hill, not a mountain to me.

If you don't enforce the rules, there are no rules.

I am always nervous when I am walking in an area with bicyclists who in many cases do not follow the rules.

 

[Big Muddy]

In what sense is Ottawa better than other cities in the developed world? I'm genuinely curious. Look , I love Ottawa. Great place to raise a family, safe and clean. But the transit is a disaster. I would like to know how Ottawa compares with other major cities

Ottawa benefits from not having a lot of heavy industry and has a government civil service, that while not well paid, isn’t really very poor. It also doesn’t have the racial strife on the same scale as other cities i.e., in the U.S. In a lot of cities I’ve spent time in, there’s a lot of areas of the city where you don’t even think of going to. It's both dangerous and rather decrepit (slum). Older parts of the city and the buildings are just decaying. I see buildings that are falling apart and should be leveled, but that doesn’t happen for whatever reasons. I guess I’m thinking of the so called "rust belt" in northeast U.S. for some of the things I’ve mentioned here.

I also think that having a city plan for many decades that includes parks, green space and the mere fact that there’s been a plan is more a net positive than a negative. Outside of the northeast U.S., you have some really sprawling cities like Dallas/Fort Worth (DFW metro complex) that are newer cities, but are sprawling. To get from the west side of Fort Worth to say the north east side of Dallas (e.g., Richardson), pack a lunch because it will take a hour & a half to get there. And they have plenty of impressive freeways all over the place there. That is problematic for workers (even my ex wife as an example). Don’t think they had any urban plan there at least none that I heard of in the years I spent there. You also don’t have a brown smog hanging over a large city that you do in a few west coast U.S. cities. Some of the things I’ve mentioned in this paragraph are not atypical of other cities west of the Mississippi I’d think.

Anyhow, that is just my point of view, but perhaps it's built on a wider perspective. That wider perspective may contrast or be attributable to having lived in more cities than one all of my life. To drudge up a well known cliche, the grass is always greener on the side of the fence, except of course when you’ve spent time on the other side of the pasture/fence.

I think the problem many city planners and plans that were crafted let’s say in or around the 1950s (if they even had a metro/regional plan) is they underestimated population growth and city sprawl. I agree that train & street cars were often too quickly replaced by buses, but in part, a factor in those decisions is the lack of anticipation of the population growth. Ironically, many cities had street cars which were removed and replaced by buses. But, in the last couple of decades, many cities (at least in the U.S.) have implemented street car systems. When they build rali systems, they often find that there is urban development that grows & is developed very near to those rail systems. From a more historical perspective, most of the growth of Long Island happened in conjunction of the building of commuter rail, now called Long Island Railroad (LIRR).

When you build a rail system, the planning has to be based on 50 years out, not 1, 5 or even 10 years after the system is built. To use an extreme example, you are not going to fix New York city's transportation & commute problems by building more roads. I used to commute from Philadelphia to New Jersey & New York, and even within the Philly metro area by rail a lot & never used a car. Parking is like $50/day, so that was one reason right there, plus you never saved any time driving your car. Some employers even use monthly passes as an employee benefit. I know that New York/Philadelphia is a different situation, but I wonder what the population of Ottawa metro area will be in 50 or 60 years from now?

 

[Relapsing]

If you don't enforce the rules, there are no rules.

I am always nervous when I am walking in an area with bicyclists who in many cases do not follow the rules.

Yeah I have my head on a swivel on mixed use paths... I'm less concerned about bikes than cars because physics, but I do wish more people paid attention to the rules. Enforcement is difficult... Hard to ban someone from using a bike.

I remember having a police officer come to school to talk/demo safety.. Does that still happen or am I just old?

Ok... Don't answer the old part.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Maybe if boomers didn't hoard everything, younger people could afford to drive?

No, blame the young people you stole the future from!

 

[DylanSensFan]

I sure hope the 25 year olds working at the NCC have thought through the need for honeybee habitats at the rink. And so help me god if there's not enough motorized longboard parking!

I will literally spit my london fog right in the face of some Orleanser with their gas guzzling Honda CR-V.

Honeybees? I hope you're joking.

 

[flyingfingers]

Rubbing shoulder shas nothing to do with it , you twat. I'm not waiting an hour to get out of the parking lot.
I have no issues taking school busses to Lansdowne, but that is not 22-30 times a year.

Perhaps they can add a police escort service for people like you, so you can get to the 417 unimpeded? It's imperative to get back to Barrhaven as quickly as possible!

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

The ratio is not 1-25 for who wants to drive vs take transit.

Something like 80-90% of people drive to work. 10-20% use transit.

Use those figures for people to go to the game.

So in reality, for every 8-9 driving, you would have 1-2 taking the bus.

Also, why do you think parking has to take up huge spaces? It doesn't downtown. It's almost all underground...just do that at LeBreton. Have an underground parking to the north for Quebecers, to the south for southern people. One in the east. One in the west end of the lot. That way every lot is already in the direction they're traveling and don't have to cross over each other and add congestion.

Seems you missed the point….. once relocating to downtown, the Arena will be on the LRT Line, if built at Lebreton…and the poster I quoted said he wants to drive to games, and will not if there is no parking…. So for him not going to a game, because he won’t be able to drive, there will be at least 25 who will have no problem using the LRT…..

 

[Relapsing]

Honeybees? I hope you're joking.

Weird aside, but the city is actually pretty strict about where hives can be placed if the intention is to harvest the honey from the hives. I worked in an office that had a company install a couple of hives on the property, and they were gone within a few months.

Municipal regs can be odd sometimes

 

[mysens]

Perhaps they can add a police escort service for people like you, so you can get to the 417 unimpeded? It's imperative to get back to Barrhaven as quickly as possible!

This is a great idea, though I do not live out that way. I will talk to Cyril on Tuesday next week and I will pitch this to him. He owes me a favor.

 

[JD1]

Maybe if boomers didn't hoard everything, younger people could afford to drive?

No, blame the young people you stole the future from!

You're really hitting this generational warfare discussion out of the park.

 

[JD1]

I think there's a definite risk to a lack of parking downtown. I would imagine that most STH'S haven't used public transit in this city in a very long time. IF the train works properly it will be convenient for me to take the train to Sens games at Lebreton, but for a lot of people it won't be convenient and if it's the only way to get there.... then what?

 

[JackieDaytona]

Working from home is great and all I suppose, but I am honestly completely disenfranchised with the the lack of non-polluting personal jetpacks as the de facto solution for traffic congestion and extended commutes. 9 year old me is seriously f***ing pissed. What happened?

 

[DylanSensFan]

Weird aside, but the city is actually pretty strict about where hives can be placed if the intention is to harvest the honey from the hives. I worked in an office that had a company install a couple of hives on the property, and they were gone within a few months.

Municipal regs can be odd sometimes

Honeybees are like cows. They should be on farms only, where food sources are more plentiful. In municipalities the focus needs to be on native bee species.

 

[UglyPuckling]

You're really hitting this generational warfare discussion out of the park.

And, some people thought this was a hockey forum. LOL.

Some people must have back problems carrying that heavy weight (chip) on their shoulders.

For clarification, I’m NOT referring to you btw.

 

[Cosmix]

Yeah I have my head on a swivel on mixed use paths... I'm less concerned about bikes than cars because physics, but I do wish more people paid attention to the rules. Enforcement is difficult... Hard to ban someone from using a bike.

I remember having a police officer come to school to talk/demo safety.. Does that still happen or am I just old?

Ok... Don't answer the old part.

There is a way to make people behave better: Enforcement! Immediately fine them $100, and for a second offence fine them $200. Thereafter confiscate their bike for riding on "walkways" and "no biking" areas. Just do it and people will learn fast not to do it.

 

[Cosmix]

Working from home is great and all I suppose, but I am honestly completely disenfranchised with the the lack of non-polluting personal jetpacks as the de facto solution for traffic congestion and extended commutes. 9 year old me is seriously f***ing pissed. What happened?

Reality and legal liabilities!