News Article: NCC putting in a lot of conditions for the downtown site

[Relapsing]

You're just salty that none of the dealerships is a Subaru.

All he needs to do is take a moonlit stroll through the parking fields on a cold winter day - he's bound to find a few Subarus.

 

[Tuna99]

So what's your alternate suggestion then?

Anyways, lets breakdown some high level numbers, and I'm going to try and keep this simple so I don't get too into the weeds. I will make some assumptions, and also predicate numbers on the current Line1 capacity.

A double-car train can carry 600 passengers at a time. Assume double car train service at Pimisi station to cover the expected transit ridership before/after a game. For the sake of argument, lets also assume that there will be two double-car trains, running in opposite directions, landing at the station at the same time. Lets also assume that the City maintains the peak demand stop frequency of 5 minutes to move as many people as possible, as quickly as possible.

So every 5 minutes, Pimisi station could move 1200 passengers on the LRT alone.

To move 15k riders would require 12.5 double car trains. We'll round that up to 13, which means it would take 65 minutes to move that many people East-West.

We could also consider Bayview Station and Line 2 - that service can move 420 passengers every 12 minutes, or another 2100 passengers an hour. I would expect given the proximity of Bayview to Pimisi and proposed arena location, there will be people that will choose to walk to Bayview rather than pack into a train for one stop.

All that in mind, I think you've pegged an unreasonable number of expected transit users coming to and from a game. It doesn't account for different modes of transportation, and it doesn't account for people going out before and after a game.

They don’t run more then 4 cars at a time afyer 6 years - you think they can put a 13 car train together and get it to run every 4 minutes. I also don’t think you could fot 1200 people in the tarsi on si the train woild have to be every 2 minutes.

Anyways, I’ll see it when I believe it. Walking and the O-train as transport for the new arena is the stupidest thing I’ve heard of.

It doesn’t work now, it won’t be working in 6 years at 15x capacity rhat it is now.

NCC is a stupid organization and this is what stupid looks like. A bunch of nurses crates reading from a wish book of how things are done instead of being real anf someone just saying “it’s stupid to expect a world class businessman to out uo 2 billion dollars to build a stadium to a place tje train doesn’t even run to on a regular basis”

Let’s start with “the NCC sucks and needs to prove to Ottawa they can get shit done, instead of making sure Andlauer has all his land cleaning forms filled out properly”

 

[Relapsing]

They don’t run more then 4 cars at a time afyer 6 years - you think they can put a 13 car train together and get it to run every 4 minutes. I also don’t think you could fot 1200 people in the tarsi on si the train woild have to be every 2 minutes.

Anyways, I’ll see it when I believe it. Walking and the O-train as transport for the new arena is the stupidest thing I’ve heard of.

It doesn’t work now, it won’t be working in 6 years at 15x capacity rhat it is now.

NCC is a stupid organization and this is what stupid looks like. A bunch of nurses crates reading from a wish book of how things are done instead of being real anf someone just saying “it’s stupid to expect a world class businessman to out uo 2 billion dollars to build a stadium to a place tje train doesn’t even run to on a regular basis”

Let’s start with “the NCC sucks and needs to prove to Ottawa they can get shit done, instead of making sure Andlauer has all his land cleaning forms filled out properly”

... So it's clear you misread, or misunderstood some numbers. Beyond the obvious (who said anything about a 13 car train?!) is there something I can help clarify for you?! Or are you just looking for an opportunity to vent?

 

[Tuna99]

... So it's clear you misread, or misunderstood some numbers. Beyond the obvious (who said anything about a 13 car train?!) is there something I can help clarify for you?! Or are you just looking for an opportunity to vent?

I think your trying to prove the O-train is a reliable system for 30 000 people in 3 hours and I don’t believe it, and you can’t prove it because it has never been done.

So yes, I think the NCC is stupid and the people putting the stadium project together are a bunch of idiots.

Prove me wrong

 

[jbeck5]

I think every train station in the suburbs should have some park and ride even if it's limited in size, with the exception of the ones where it really isn't feasible (I'm thinking Jeanne D'arc and Convent Glen for example, although even Jeanne D'arc does have limited park and ride and the Bob Macquarrie).

So, for example, in the east, during the winter and non-Titans games nights, open up the parking at the Baseball stadium at Coventry, make deals with the Gloucester center, and StLaurent for parking on game nights, build parking at Hurdman, and Montreal road stops, add some more parking at Place d'orleans ect, then make your ticket to the game cover the cost of the train.

Lets say you have 15 park and rides (5 in the east, 5 in the west, 5 in the south) with on average 400 spots (is that optimistic? Trim has over 1000 and Place has over 500 for example), you've now got 6000 parking spots, add another 1500 or so downtown spots when you combine on site with walking distance street and lots, your up to 7500 spots, assuming on average each car has 2 people in it, and you've can have 15000 people who use a mixed commute of train/drive. Now, not all the spots will be used by people going to games, so thats best case I guess, but it will be useful for other events too, like Canada day, tulip and blues fest and such.

I agree so much that I couldn't agree more.

 

[Masked]

Anyways, lets breakdown some high level numbers, and I'm going to try and keep this simple so I don't get too into the weeds. I will make some assumptions, and also predicate numbers on the current Line1 capacity.

A double-car train can carry 600 passengers at a time. Assume double car train service at Pimisi station to cover the expected transit ridership before/after a game. For the sake of argument, lets also assume that there will be two double-car trains, running in opposite directions, landing at the station at the same time. Lets also assume that the City maintains the peak demand stop frequency of 5 minutes to move as many people as possible, as quickly as possible.

So every 5 minutes, Pimisi station could move 1200 passengers on the LRT alone.

To move 15k riders would require 12.5 double car trains. We'll round that up to 13, which means it would take 65 minutes to move that many people East-West.

One thing you've forgotten in your calculations is the passengers who already would be using the train that aren't going to and from the new arena. While the post game trains could be less than full, the ones before the game should already be quite full with rush hour traffic given that they run every 5 minutes until 6:30PM.

How much capacity does line 1 have during rush hour even without people going to a new arena?

 

[Relapsing]

I think your trying to prove the O-train is a reliable system for 30 000 people in 3 hours and I don’t believe it, and you can’t prove it because it has never been done.

So yes, I think the NCC is stupid and the people putting the stadium project together are a bunch of idiots.

Prove me wrong

What I did was breakdown the ridership capacity based on how I expect the City to operate LRT frequency before and after a game - by providing peak service for a limited time during off-peak hours. I clearly indicated the double car ridership capacity, how many double-cars would be required to move the number of people you (IMO incorrectly) assume will be using the LRT at Pimisi Station, and extrapolated based on those numbers, how long it would take to clear Pimisi Station after a game.

I said nothing about reliability. Just extrapolating what's possible given the current peak capacity of Line 1.

What am I supposed to prove wrong? If it's your premise of 30k in 3 hours, then I'm going to need access to data I don't currently have access to, such as studies about attendees expected transit habits at the new location to see if all involved are operating on the same assumption you are - that 15k people are going to use the East-West LRT to get to and from a game.

BTW - where'd you get that number from?

If it's the capacity of Line 1, then please note that I have provided publicly available ridership numbers. These are the maximum capacities of a double-car train running on peak schedules.

As for your comments about the NCC and the people involved in this project, we're each entitled to our opinions, and you're entitled to vent about it if you want.

I think every train station in the suburbs should have some park and ride even if it's limited in size, with the exception of the ones where it really isn't feasible (I'm thinking Jeanne D'arc and Convent Glen for example, although even Jeanne D'arc does have limited park and ride and the Bob Macquarrie).

So, for example, in the east, during the winter and non-Titans games nights, open up the parking at the Baseball stadium at Coventry, make deals with the Gloucester center, and StLaurent for parking on game nights, build parking at Hurdman, and Montreal road stops, add some more parking at Place d'orleans ect, then make your ticket to the game cover the cost of the train.

Lets say you have 15 park and rides (5 in the east, 5 in the west, 5 in the south) with on average 400 spots (is that optimistic? Trim has over 1000 and Place has over 500 for example), you've now got 6000 parking spots, add another 1500 or so downtown spots when you combine on site with walking distance street and lots, your up to 7500 spots, assuming on average each car has 2 people in it, and you've can have 15000 people who use a mixed commute of train/drive. Now, not all the spots will be used by people going to games, so thats best case I guess, but it will be useful for other events too, like Canada day, tulip and blues fest and such.

Going to also chime in and say how much I want more park and rides to feed into the transit system, especially so for major event days. It's a no-brainer, everybody wins idea. For what it's worth, here's a list of the current OCTranspo Park and Ride locations, noting which ones are connected to a line 1/2 station, and their capacities:

https://www.octranspo.com/en/our-services/park-ride/

 

[Relapsing]

One thing you've forgotten in your calculations is the passengers who already would be using the train that aren't going to and from the new arena. While the post game trains could be less than full, the ones before the game should already be quite full with rush hour traffic given that they run every 5 minutes until 6:30PM.

How much capacity does line 1 have during rush hour even without people going to a new arena?

Totally fair! There's lots of factors I didn't take into account. Similarly, how many people attending a game are going right there from work that is within walking distance of the Arena?

As I said, I tried to simplify things and make some flat assumptions, to get a baseline of the peak capacity of the system as it stands, assuming the City extends peak capacity on game days beyond 6:30.

The capacities I've listed (600 riders per double-train at 5 minute intervals) is the peak, or rush hour, capacity of Line 1.

 

[mysens]

Parking is a big issue that the Sens want and need. The ownership group is very big with very well off partners. These partners have many many well off friends and associates who want to drive their cars to the games. They will not take an uber, public transit especially in the throes of winter. Valet is a must. I don’t know if you have been to games in the early spring or late fall, but the valet is littered with Lamborghini, Ferrari, Aston Martin, Rolls Royce and Bentleys. You don’t want to push them into public transit. That’s a fatal mistake. These people have luxury boxes and are part of philanthropy with the Senators Foundation. You want to make them happy.

 

[Masked]

Parking is a big issue that the Sens want and need. The ownership group is very big with very well off partners. These partners have many many well off friends and associates who want to drive their cars to the games. They will not take an uber, public transit especially in the throes of winter. Valet is a must. I don’t know if you have been to games in the early spring or late fall, but the valet is littered with Lamborghini, Ferrari, Aston Martin, Rolls Royce and Bentleys. You don’t want to push them into public transit. That’s a fatal mistake. These people have luxury boxes and are part of philanthropy with the Senators Foundation. You want to make them happy.

From what I can find there are only 150 valet parking spots at the CTC. I'm sure there will be that many at LeBreton.

 

[Stylizer1]

If this legislation for everything to be electric stays, and electric car prices don't come down...

Rather than have way less cars on the road, I see a huge business empire opportunity for a company to take all these gas cars, refurbish them basically as new, but sell them as used so they don't fall under that electric umbrella...

Then gas stations will stay around if there's demand.

People love their cars...I honestly don't see a world where people give up their cars. They will fight it. They will burn down buildings if they have to. It's not gonna happen..personal vehicles are here to stay, and are a thing of the future. It's just a matter of what that technology will look like.

It doesn't matter if there is demand when the government makes it illegal to use gas. Give anything time and as each generation gets indoctrinated a little bit more and you make it harder and harder people will accept anything.

 

[Stylizer1]

Parking is a big issue that the Sens want and need. The ownership group is very big with very well off partners. These partners have many many well off friends and associates who want to drive their cars to the games. They will not take an uber, public transit especially in the throes of winter. Valet is a must. I don’t know if you have been to games in the early spring or late fall, but the valet is littered with Lamborghini, Ferrari, Aston Martin, Rolls Royce and Bentleys. You don’t want to push them into public transit. That’s a fatal mistake. These people have luxury boxes and are part of philanthropy with the Senators Foundation. You want to make them happy.

Seriously, peasants smell funny.

 

[Big Muddy]

Nah. A central location with good parking, on or close to the highway with lots of parking would be great.

I would never suggest you build it so far out that 95% of the population is in one direction.

(I understand why it is where it is now) But no. Keeping it where it is is much worse.

Lots of things are great. I’d like to get McDavid for league minimum LOL. You make the wish list of central location, close to the highway and lots of parking sound so easy. I’ll hazard a guess that it could be a little more difficult even if you have a big easy button. There aren’t many/any large parcels of empty land in the downtown core, so a building would have to be removed. That adds cost.

I’m kind of curious about Andlauer’s mindset. Of course, none of us really know that, but if he’s doing OK financially with the current location, he may be less anxious to move. He could certainly afford to take his time and be selective until the right situation presents itself. Fans may have different ideas or priorities

 

[GCK]

It’s Time for the Ottawa Senators to Ditch the NCC and Build a New Arena

For over a decade, the Ottawa Senators have been mired in talks with the National Capital Commission (NCC) to build a new arena at LeBreton Flats, a prime downtown spot that could revitalize the team’s fanbase and Ottawa’s core. But the NCC’s endless bureaucracy—endless consultations, environmental demands for carbon-neutral designs, and eco-friendly transport plans—has turned this dream into a quagmire. The Senators need a home closer to the city’s heart, not another decade of red tape. It’s time to cut bait, abandon LeBreton, and move forward with alternative sites that don’t involve the NCC’s stranglehold. Ottawa has viable options, all city-owned or private, that can get this arena built faster and smarter.

First up is Bayview Yards, a 13.5-acre city-owned site just west of LeBreton, near the Bayview LRT station. It’s got the space for a modern arena, parking, and an entertainment district—everything the Senators need to compete with NHL heavyweights. With direct LRT access connecting east, west, and south, fans can ditch their cars, easing traffic woes. The city’s control means no NCC hoops to jump through, just straightforward municipal negotiations. Sure, relocating existing facilities might be a hassle, but it’s a small price to pay for progress.

Then there’s the old RCMP site on Vanier Parkway, a stone’s throw from the Queensway and St. Laurent LRT. At 4-5 km from downtown, it’s closer than the current Canadian Tire Centre and has room for a multi-purpose complex. Highway and transit access make it a fan-friendly choice, and its non-NCC status sidesteps federal delays. Some environmental cleanup might be needed, but that’s a simpler fix than the NCC’s zero-carbon mandates.

RCGT Park, home to the underused Ottawa Baseball Stadium, is another contender. Just 5 km from downtown, it’s got LRT and highway access, and as city property, it’s free of NCC oversight. The site’s smaller size might limit extras like retail, but redeveloping it for hockey could breathe new life into Vanier. The baseball team? They’ll survive a move.

Hurdman Station, near a major LRT hub, offers transit galore and a central location, 6 km from Parliament Hill. It’s a bit of a wildcard—land ownership needs clarifying—but it’s a non-NCC option with potential for a big arena project. Lansdowne Park, home to the outdated Civic Centre, is closer still, at 3 km from downtown. It’s city-run, with existing sports infrastructure, but its small size and transit limits make it a tougher sell unless the Glebe’s NIMBY crowd can be won over.

The Senators can’t afford to wait out the NCC’s glacial pace. Bayview Yards and Vanier Parkway are the clear frontrunners—spacious, transit-rich, and free of federal gridlock. The city’s ready to deal, and private land could be an option if Ottawa steps up. Fans deserve a downtown arena that’s more than a pipe dream. It’s time to ditch LeBreton, pick a site, and build. Let’s get with it.

Only Bayview is an upgrade on the current location.

 

[Tuna99]

Parking is a big issue that the Sens want and need. The ownership group is very big with very well off partners. These partners have many many well off friends and associates who want to drive their cars to the games. They will not take an uber, public transit especially in the throes of winter. Valet is a must. I don’t know if you have been to games in the early spring or late fall, but the valet is littered with Lamborghini, Ferrari, Aston Martin, Rolls Royce and Bentleys. You don’t want to push them into public transit. That’s a fatal mistake. These people have luxury boxes and are part of philanthropy with the Senators Foundation. You want to make them happy.

Like Montreal there will always be parking under the stadium for VIPs, for sure this has been thought of by Andlauer.

The NCC will want to see that the VIPs can speak both office lngugea before they park and acknowledge they are parking on land claimed by someone other then the NCC, then when that’s done the VIPs can park and their cars nd go upstairs to see the broken O-train.

 

[GCK]

Have you read some of the demands or ideas being floated by drivers in this thread? Whether it's turning the parkway into a highway, widening roads, or installing thousands or parking spaces, all in an effort to cater to 40~ evenings of temporary peak road traffic, then they deeply do not understand city planning and infrastructure development.

The selfishness of the ask is galling: As if the new arena is solely there to host NHL games during the winter. That kind of ask puts Glebe NIMBYism to shame ffs.

This City is full of people who demand investment in infrastructure, only to turn around and not actually use it because it doesn't specifically cater to their desire to not use a bus or walk as little as humanly possible. I haven't been in a major city anywhere in the world in which you didn't have to use a mix of transit options to get from A to B.

The only way to reduce congestion is to spread out the options people have for getting around the City, or in this case, leaving the arena after an event. Transit is, and must, be a major component to moving people to and from the rink. It's non-negotiable if the arena is located downtown, on the backbone transit line.

Whether it's the current proposed location, Bayview, or somewhere else along the transit line, people are going to have to get used to the idea of parking and riding, or some version of it, to get to and from the arena.

People would do what they do in Toronto. Park downtown and walk or take LRT for a couple stops.

 

[GCK]

This whole idea of a downtown arena, and Ottawa needing a downtwon arena, is dumb.

Ottawa is not designed for a downtwon arena, and it never will be. It will be a massive collapse of a fan base once they find out they cannot get there reliably and quickly. You cannot unscramble the egg. Greber plan f***ed this city so badly, and now , contravening the design of the actualy city, not this mythical city with this mythical arena with mythical tranist, they want to put an arena downtown in a city dominated by cars, not because Ottawa has some car fanatics, but due to transit sucking balls, unreliable, not enought routes, and very slow and inefficient.

This arena has to be put where there is parking and LRT. That's how this will work. I ain't walking 10 minutes anywhere in the winter, f*** that. And all those people in the first bowl won't either. If they don't construct this thing with a stop underneath it, then don't waste your money and time.

This is the stupidest city every designed becasue we let some guy from France dictate to dumb Canadians of the day on how to make Ottawa a capital city, and royally f***ed up with removing what was a transit , train friendly city, streetcar city, into this suburban shitshow because the city loves DC money. They priced people out of the privileged core of within the Greenbelt and forced people to build outside of it. And commute. They should have grenaded that plan and instead of building Kanata, that suburb should be in the bloody Greenbelt. But you cannot unscramble the egg.

No one with any money lives downtown, and the clientele of the Senators resides outside of the Greenbelt. And with the condo market collapse, all those towers that were propsed tobe built will not see the light of day. No one wants shoeboxes downtown . They want homes for families and family sized dwellings in those new downtwon buildings. Byt let's cater to the 1,000 Sens fans in ....Gatineau? Well at least they are closer now.

I hope the NCC delays this thing as it will buy me time to get to the CTC for the next 10 years. Stutzle will never play a game in this new arena. Neither will Sanderson. Fine by me

Many people in Toronto’s lower bowl walk more than 10 minutes.

 

[GCK]

This city is overwhelmed with bureaucracy at all levels of government & with the people that live here who have worked in the government that love bureaucracy & red tape. It will be a decade before they build an arena & by then it could be too late.

That’s every city in the free world.

 

[flyingfingers]

Parking is a big issue that the Sens want and need. The ownership group is very big with very well off partners. These partners have many many well off friends and associates who want to drive their cars to the games. They will not take an uber, public transit especially in the throes of winter. Valet is a must. I don’t know if you have been to games in the early spring or late fall, but the valet is littered with Lamborghini, Ferrari, Aston Martin, Rolls Royce and Bentleys. You don’t want to push them into public transit. That’s a fatal mistake. These people have luxury boxes and are part of philanthropy with the Senators Foundation. You want to make them happy.

Are there no rich people in Toronto? Montreal? Vancouver?

All those rinks have limited parking, but believe me, if you own a $10M home on Lakeshore in Oakville and want to drive your Maserati to the game, you’re not going to have to cruise down Bay looking for a surface lot with a spot available. There’s valet at Scotiabank waiting for you.

It’ll be the same here.

The debate is do they need to provide $20 parking for Billy who’s driving his leased Silverado in from Almonte? And the answer is no. Billy can go to a park and ride or park at any of the existing lots around the area and make the 25 minute walk to the rink.

 

[Big Muddy]

Only Bayview is an upgrade on the current location.

Going from memory, that seemed like the best of the available alternatives.

 

[Wondercarrot]

I’ve heard that they’ll actually make people present their OC Transpo transfer alongside their ticket. No transfer, no entry.

WHAT IF I WANT TO FLY THERE IN MY LEONARDO AW109? HAS ANYONE CONSIDERED THAT?

 

[Big Muddy]

Are there no rich people in Toronto? Montreal? Vancouver?

All those rinks have limited parking, but believe me, if you own a $10M home on Lakeshore in Oakville and want to drive your Maserati to the game, you’re not going to have to cruise down Bay looking for a surface lot with a spot available. There’s valet at Scotiabank waiting for you.

It’ll be the same here.

The debate is do they need to provide $20 parking for Billy who’s driving his leased Silverado in from Almonte? And the answer is no. Billy can go to a park and ride or park at any of the existing lots around the area and make the 25 minute walk to the rink.

Do you have any idea how much douche you sound like speaking on their behalf like an obnoxious twit?
You come across like a valet for the Malhotras.

I mean FFS, everyone knows there will be enough parking for the well heeled, and that owners/ partners are wealthy. These are non issues, the concept being discussed is how much parking - not NO parking.
Good lord.

The uber wealthy could use helicopters and land on the roof LOL.

Ooops - you beat me with your post.

 

[flyingfingers]

It doesn't matter if there is demand when the government makes it illegal to use gas. Give anything time and as each generation gets indoctrinated a little bit more and you make it harder and harder people will accept anything.

First they’ll build an arena that’s more accessible via transit and encourage people to use it. Then they’ll ban gasoline. Then they’ll shut down grocery stores and make everyone forage.

 

[jbeck5]

More like the brewery, the distillery, the trampoline park, the huge gym, Bass Pro Shops, Princess Auto, the outlet mall, the rock climbing place, and so on...

Who the heck is going to princess auto or Bass pro shop after the game to celebrate a win?

"Sens just won a playoff game...let's go to Canadian Tire and buy a mastercraft screwdriver set!...oh wait, they closed at 9...let's go home"

 

[jbeck5]

The uber wealthy could use helicopters and land on the roof LOL.

Ooops - you beat me with your post.

Are the Uber wealthy people that got wealthy from ubering or people who are wealthy and use Uber?