NCAA vs CIS Championship

[kabidjan18]

Out of that number only two signings mean anything at all. CIS teams do have a high content of players that have played junior and have already been scouted. It doesn't mean they are bad hockey players it means that they just aren't NHL players.

Absolutely not. The minor league signing indicate the opinion of minor league scouts, GMs and other professionals. This indicates that the difference is not only in top level players but also superior skill with depth players. It does not help your case that the CIS players have been scouted twice and ECHL front offices still don't feel these players are worth their time. I advise you pretend to not have said that.

post above

EP lists 27 but this doesn't feel very relevant, those 2 probably didn't play 3 games. Cutting them would actually increase the signing proportion. Second, the league is only so important. The sport we are discussing is ice hockey, not soccer, a top player will only play so many minutes. The number of contracts signed indicates depth of talent. A team that has all members playing at a level good enough for a minor league contract will do better than a team with 3 NHL stars and 24 toddlers. Finally, you chose a class that you don't even have complete stats for. The reason your chose the class, and the reason I will argue collector's bias, is because it is the only example that comes to your mind of a team that fits the argument you are trying to prove. You must remember however that one exception does not make the exception more true than a general commonality. If I find 9 in 10 movies I watch boring, you cannot claim that I enjoy movies based off of one exceptional situation where I enjoyed the movie. Perhaps you cannot make a solid rule that I will invariably dislike movies however you cannot act like the exception is the norm. You had to find a class you didn't have full or complete data for because that was the only exception that could prove your claim. If you want to prove your claim you need to prove that more than 50% of time the less talented team in terms of prospects and contracts will win, not just present incomplete stats to attempt to present one outlier. Finally, if you did come up with that 50.1%, you haven't address the notion that friendlies could be inaccurate and your only statement regarding that is that other people are quoting an inaccurate statistic. You stated that you've proven that these top level teams are competitive, but you've allowed your only evidence to be dismissed even by yourself. Even if you were to prove that my evidence against your claim is wrong you need evidence to prove that your claim is right, otherwise it is merely an unsupported claim or superstition.

 

[hallhopkinseberle]

UofA teams are very good, it would be interesting to see imo.

 

[Breakers]

Most NCAA teams use the CIS as tune up games.


& most of the time the NCAA team wins Handedly.

 

[Xokkeu]

Wrong, CIS teams would absolutely destroy d3. The quebec teams are also some of the best CIS teams out there.... This isnt a hard thing to find either so you probably should show some proof. CIS is much closer to D1 than D3.

The division one champion would certainly be better than the CIS champion but I think it would still be an interesting series to watch.

Well I guess since you said it's wrong, that's that then!

 

[canuck2010]

Absolutely not. The minor league signing indicate the opinion of minor league scouts, GMs and other professionals. This indicates that the difference is not only in top level players but also superior skill with depth players. It does not help your case that the CIS players have been scouted twice and ECHL front offices still don't feel these players are worth their time. I advise you pretend to not have said that.


EP lists 27 but this doesn't feel very relevant, those 2 probably didn't play 3 games. Cutting them would actually increase the signing proportion. Second, the league is only so important. The sport we are discussing is ice hockey, not soccer, a top player will only play so many minutes. The number of contracts signed indicates depth of talent. A team that has all members playing at a level good enough for a minor league contract will do better than a team with 3 NHL stars and 24 toddlers. Finally, you chose a class that you don't even have complete stats for. The reason your chose the class, and the reason I will argue collector's bias, is because it is the only example that comes to your mind of a team that fits the argument you are trying to prove. You must remember however that one exception does not make the exception more true than a general commonality. If I find 9 in 10 movies I watch boring, you cannot claim that I enjoy movies based off of one exceptional situation where I enjoyed the movie. Perhaps you cannot make a solid rule that I will invariably dislike movies however you cannot act like the exception is the norm. You had to find a class you didn't have full or complete data for because that was the only exception that could prove your claim. If you want to prove your claim you need to prove that more than 50% of time the less talented team in terms of prospects and contracts will win, not just present incomplete stats to attempt to present one outlier. Finally, if you did come up with that 50.1%, you haven't address the notion that friendlies could be inaccurate and your only statement regarding that is that other people are quoting an inaccurate statistic. You stated that you've proven that these top level teams are competitive, but you've allowed your only evidence to be dismissed even by yourself. Even if you were to prove that my evidence against your claim is wrong you need evidence to prove that your claim is right, otherwise it is merely an unsupported claim or superstition.

The players that graduate from the CHL and go to the CIS don't need to be scouted twice. They aren't NHL players and never will, be we know that. They go to university for a reason, not to play in the bush leagues at 25. The dream is over.

 

[kabidjan18]

The players that graduate from the CHL and go to the CIS don't need to be scouted twice. They aren't NHL players and never will, be we know that. They go to university for a reason, not to play in the bush leagues at 25. The dream is over.

A minor league as much as you wish to insult ignorantly is not a bush league. What makes it even worse is that many grads play in actual bush leagues like the CHINOOK or the LNAH upon graduation. You say the dream is over but plenty of players sign after graduation, just significantly less than the NCAA. You're trying to project a certain mentality on these players but you should probably get documentation on it or prove that this is a common sentiment. Many play in very irrevelant leagues in europe upon graduation too like the EIHL OR SERIE A. Merely taking stabs at anticipating how they feel isn't credible. A tiny sample size like a few players you either interact with or know very well isn't any better.

 

[canuck2010]

A minor league as much as you wish to insult ignorantly is not a bush league. What makes it even worse is that many grads play in actual bush leagues like the CHINOOK or the LNAH upon graduation. You say the dream is over but plenty of players sign after graduation, just significantly less than the NCAA. You're trying to project a certain mentality on these players but you should probably get documentation on it or prove that this is a common sentiment. Many play in very irrevelant leagues in europe upon graduation too like the EIHL OR SERIE A. Merely taking stabs at anticipating how they feel isn't credible. A tiny sample size like a few players you either interact with or know very well isn't any better.

It sounds as if I might have struck a nerve. I was speaking in general terms and overall from 40,000 feet. My intent was not insult or to demean anyone. I sincerely apologize if I insulted you kabidjan, anyone you know, or is connected to you or anyone else that read my post.

I should not have said what I said especially about anyone that wanted to continue to play hockey at any level in any community in any league.

 

[kabidjan18]

It sounds as if I might have struck a nerve. I was speaking in general terms and overall from 40,000 feet. My intent was not insult or to demean anyone. I sincerely apologize if I insulted you kabidjan, anyone you know, or is connected to you or anyone else that read my post.

I should not have said what I said especially about anyone that wanted to continue to play hockey at any level in any community in any league.

No you're fine. I thought the claim was unsupported or not true but it's fine. I think I'll stop with the statistics on the theoretical game because hey, the only way to win is to play. I'd like to see the game happen but it would take like a profit sharing agreement and stuff like that, NCAA CIS cooperation. Thay stuff is usually harder.

 

[kabidjan18]

There are a few who have not graduated yet but those players are unlikely to play in the NHL any time soon. Yale has only a very slight edge and yet loses quite badly to a team like B.C. but they still remain the 13 champions

Too ironic to not mention but just in today.
http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=128376
Yale to the Boston Bruins.

 

[TonyTinglebone]

Right, right, because of the results of pre-season exhibition matches we know this...

I took two schools, UNB 2012 and UND 2011 (some from the UND 2012 class haven't graduated yet). The former was the Conference Champion in their year, the latter didn't make the playoff. Let's look at the numbers shall we?

I broke down player futures into 5 categories based on the contract they signed immediately following their final season with the team. RET (retired, beer league, local league, or extraneous European league, no player from either team signed substantial European contracts straight out of college), SPHL, ECHL, AHL, and NHL.
UNB 2012:
RET: 17
SPHL: 2
ECHL: 5
AHL: 3
NHL: 0
and UND 2011:
RET: 9
SPHL: 2
ECHL: 5
AHL: 5
NHL: 6 (Robbie Russo, Tj Tynan, Anders Lee, Stephen Johns, Riley Sheahan, Bryan Rust)

So you tell me, a perennial powerhouse against perennial mediocrity. It's good that UNB is really showing out in those friendly matches, too bad GMs are just blind and can't see that these kids are just as good as the perennial NCAA powerhouses.

You are comparing these as development leagues which isn't the proper way to look at it.

CIS hockey is generally looked at as a free education after players realize that they aren't going to have much of a hockey career. Canadian major junior players are afforded scholarships for every year that they play in the QMJHL/OHL/WHL and these guys are cashing in for an education as opposed to struggling through the minors. They generally don't start CIS hockey until they are 21-23 years old.

NCAA is getting the education while still pursuing their hockey dreams. Players are generally finishing up their NCAA careers when the CIS guys are just starting in college. Obviously scouts are going to be more interested in players that are 21/22 than players that are 25/26/27.

A lot of these CIS guys are looking to settle down and start a lifelong career rather than chase the dream riding buses in the minors (likely making less money than they could in the business world).

Also with your pro league stats you could also look at the CIS guys prior to going to play there since UNB had players join the specific team you referenced with experience in the ECHL (2), AHL (3), and NHL (1).

edit: Additionally several CIS players were drafted NHL players and went through the training camps and decided to head to the CIS since they realized where they likely were on the depth charts and saw the CIS as a good option as opposed to a minor league or low tier European career. From that specific UNB team there were 11 players drafted in the following rounds of the NHL draft 2nd (1), 3rd (2), 4th (4), 7th (3) and 9th (1)

 

[WarriorofTime]

As much as I'd love to see it, I think the NCAA champ vs the Memorial Cup champ would be a closer series by a large margin.

NCAA >>> CIS >>>>> CHL

The age difference cannot be understated. There's only a handful of CHL kids that are NHL caliber. Probably like 1 per team averaged out.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Well I give you the 2013 NCAA champions Yale Bulldogs...only one player on that team signed a NHL contract after graduating and only managed to play a grand total of 10 NHL games in the past three seasons...as for the rest of the team, 4 signed AHL contracts, 2 went to the ECHL , 1 to the SPHL and 10 retired. That sure doesn't match up to the 2013 Boston College Eagles who had 5 players jump to the NHL, 4 to the AHL, 3 to the ECHL and only having 4 retire. Yet Yale won the NCAA tournament championship while B.C. was beaten by Union college..another program who, with the exception of Shayne Gostisbehere, did not feature any future NHL studded talent.

No doubt UNB could have competed with Yale that year

The type of hockey player who graduates from Yale University is probably the type to pursue other lucrative ventures rather than spend a few years trying to chase around a hockey career playing in Minor European Leagues.

 

[Aceboogie]

Most NCAA teams use the CIS as tune up games.


& most of the time the NCAA team wins Handedly.

No they don't. U of A just beat Yale, minnesota state and Dartmouth. They've went 3 for 4 in past 2 years

Players are the bears are signing pro contracts by the bunches now for the ahl. Some even graduating to NHL. NHL clubs are clueing into the ridiculously untapped market that is the CIS.

CHL is below NCAA for play, but blows it out of the water for development to nhl

 

[kabidjan18]

No they don't. U of A just beat Yale, minnesota state and Dartmouth. They've went 3 for 4 in past 2 years

Players are the bears are signing pro contracts by the bunches now for the ahl. Some even graduating to NHL. NHL clubs are clueing into the ridiculously untapped market that is the CIS.

CHL is below NCAA for play, but blows it out of the water for development to nhl

Alex Lyon, another 2013-2014 Yale guy signed with the Flyers just yesterday I kinda chuckled when it happened.

In the past week 9 recently graduated NCAA grads just signed NHL contracts, and it's late right now because most teams' seasons ended earlier so most teams' grads have already signed. Since it's about transaction time I did notice recently an uptick in players from Guelph and Alberta signing. In the past 3 weeks 2 UNB kids signed ECHL contracts, 5 (which is impressive) Guelph (Yay!) kids signed ECHL contracts, 2 Carleton kids signed ECHL contracts, and most impressively 5 Alberta kids signed ECHL contracts and 1 signed an AHL contract. Those were the only teams with transactions in the past 3 weeks. That's a total of 14 ECHL contracts and 1 AHL contracts, none of the NHL ones you mentioned. Oh did I forget to mention that in the past week 9 NCAA grads have signed NHL contracts? If we go back 8 days the number is 15 NHL contracts. So hmmm...15 minor league contracts (14 AA, 1 AAA) in 3 weeks vs. 15 NHL contracts in 8 days...I believe that the CIS is an extremely underutilized resource for European leagues, and this year there seems to have been a slight uptick in ECHL signings at the expense of the normal number of AHL signings...not much to get excited about really.

For tony's point, you bring up a good point, not with the draft the draft is pretty irrelevant but the former players. Adding former players definitely would narrow the margin, though not cover it. Most NCAA players who aren't top recruits finish NCAA closer to 23 or 24 but you bring up a good argument, not that this is a topic I wish to linger on.

 

[Hanji]

No they don't. U of A just beat Yale, minnesota state and Dartmouth. They've went 3 for 4 in past 2 years

Players are the bears are signing pro contracts by the bunches now for the ahl. Some even graduating to NHL. NHL clubs are clueing into the ridiculously untapped market that is the CIS.

CHL is below NCAA for play, but blows it out of the water for development to nhl

You do realize the NCAA went 39-8-3 this year vs the CIS, right? And this was a good showing by the CIS. Two years ago they won all of 4 games.

 

[Aceboogie]

You do realize the NCAA went 39-8-3 this year vs the CIS, right? And this was a good showing by the CIS. Two years ago they won all of 4 games.

Against some weak CIS teams. U of A is a tremendous program. So to anyone who thinks a NCAA team would run over them, you are very off base.

Sure ill give it to the NCAA that as a whole is above the CIS. But put in UNB or CIS into a tourney with the top NCAA teams and they will do well. Which is what this thread is about

The NCAA and CIS have probably the same gap as KHL to AHL. In a league wide tourney the KHL would dust the AHL teams. But take the 2 best AHL teams vs good KHL teams and itd be close

 

[Aceboogie]

Alex Lyon, another 2013-2014 Yale guy signed with the Flyers just yesterday I kinda chuckled when it happened.

In the past week 9 recently graduated NCAA grads just signed NHL contracts, and it's late right now because most teams' seasons ended earlier so most teams' grads have already signed. Since it's about transaction time I did notice recently an uptick in players from Guelph and Alberta signing. In the past 3 weeks 2 UNB kids signed ECHL contracts, 5 (which is impressive) Guelph (Yay!) kids signed ECHL contracts, 2 Carleton kids signed ECHL contracts, and most impressively 5 Alberta kids signed ECHL contracts and 1 signed an AHL contract. Those were the only teams with transactions in the past 3 weeks. That's a total of 14 ECHL contracts and 1 AHL contracts, none of the NHL ones you mentioned. Oh did I forget to mention that in the past week 9 NCAA grads have signed NHL contracts? If we go back 8 days the number is 15 NHL contracts. So hmmm...15 minor league contracts (14 AA, 1 AAA) in 3 weeks vs. 15 NHL contracts in 8 days...I believe that the CIS is an extremely underutilized resource for European leagues, and this year there seems to have been a slight uptick in ECHL signings at the expense of the normal number of AHL signings...not much to get excited about really.

For tony's point, you bring up a good point, not with the draft the draft is pretty irrelevant but the former players. Adding former players definitely would narrow the margin, though not cover it. Most NCAA players who aren't top recruits finish NCAA closer to 23 or 24 but you bring up a good argument, not that this is a topic I wish to linger on.

Derek Ryan, Carolina Hurricanes.

I have already said the NCAA produces way more NHL and pro talent. Its not really close. The NCAA is filled with top scoring CHL players who didnt get NHL deals and wanted to earn an education. A lot of them could have signed pro deals for AHL or ECHL out of CHL, but education is a massive thing for them. I know numerous Golden Bears that turned down pro deals. Then once they graduate CIS they are 26-27 years old. Not many AHL teams are dishing out contracts to players of that age. They give them to younger guys, even if worse.

But teams are finally clueing into the CIS. Here is the 2015-2016 Golden Bears. http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0028962016.html Of the top graduates, 6 out of 6 have signed pro ECHL and AHL deals. Which is a major boost from previous teams. Who only were able to sign pro Europe deals (and now in pro NA hockey because they tore up Europe). Derek Ryan was one of first players on the earlier Bears dynasty in 2008-2010, and he is now the first to make the NHL. I would not be suprised to see a wave of them follow suit as the 2010 1st years are now all graduating to the ECHL and AHL


But the "NHL graduation" argument applies to CHL vs NCAA debate just as much. CHL produces way more NHLers and AHLers than NCAA does

CIS gets way to undervalued on HF. UofA or UNB would give the best NCAA trouble in a frozen four like tourny.

Ive had the pleasure of watching a lot of CIS games, and the style is totally different. CIS players play the most mature and system oriented style of any of the minor leagues. They basically play the same style as Providence Frairs.

 

[kabidjan18]

Derek Ryan, Carolina Hurricanes.

I have already said the NCAA produces way more NHL and pro talent. Its not really close. The NCAA is filled with top scoring CHL players who didnt get NHL deals and wanted to earn an education. A lot of them could have signed pro deals for AHL or ECHL out of CHL, but education is a massive thing for them. I know numerous Golden Bears that turned down pro deals. Then once they graduate CIS they are 26-27 years old. Not many AHL teams are dishing out contracts to players of that age. They give them to younger guys, even if worse.

But teams are finally clueing into the CIS. Here is the 2015-2016 Golden Bears. http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0028962016.html Of the top graduates, 6 out of 6 have signed pro ECHL and AHL deals. Which is a major boost from previous teams. Who only were able to sign pro Europe deals (and now in pro NA hockey because they tore up Europe). Derek Ryan was one of first players on the earlier Bears dynasty in 2008-2010, and he is now the first to make the NHL. I would not be suprised to see a wave of them follow suit as the 2010 1st years are now all graduating to the ECHL and AHL


But the "NHL graduation" argument applies to CHL vs NCAA debate just as much. CHL produces way more NHLers and AHLers than NCAA does

CIS gets way to undervalued on HF. UofA or UNB would give the best NCAA trouble in a frozen four like tourny.

Ive had the pleasure of watching a lot of CIS games, and the style is totally different. CIS players play the most mature and system oriented style of any of the minor leagues. They basically play the same style as Providence Frairs.

Lol, fail. First off a providence kid just signed with Edmonton today. But second, you miss the point that every single other person who has tried to argue your side has gotten, so congratulations on being slow. The exercise evaluates the contract signed upon graduation. I'm far more aware of Mr. Ryan, in fact I referenced him above, because he played in Austria upon graduation and then Sweden before he finally made his way to the NHL. By the same argument the Austrian U20 league is an NHL feeder because Thomas Raffl signed with Winnipeg about a decade after playing his last U20 game. The contract a player signs immediately upon graduation is the best evaluator we have of his relative skill when he last played for the university. Ryan signed in Hungary, so his skill at that time is best evaluated as Hungary level. Also, you haven't done much research on CIS kids, they're lucky if they can sign in europe, I think higher European leagues should start keying into them. You are correct when you say as I mentioned already that 5 Alberta kids signed ECHL deals, and one signed in the AHL. Usually the AHL number is higher for the CIS, and less ECHL but that may be changing? You keep oscillating between a good point and a bad point. You're not even giving anecdotal references about players who turn down deals, nor are you specifying where the deals come from, and forget statistics...I'm not going to get any from you it seems.

The fact that you watched a few games or even many games and had a good time means nothing. I also enjoy watching pee wee and the teams remind me of other teams, wonderful evidence. A lot has been provided against the usage of friendlies as a skill parameter. Others have stopped contesting, but you haven't even addressed why friendlies should be used as a parameter.

If the object is to see who can convince you of one side, you've won, lol, I won't be able to.

 

[Aceboogie]

Lol, fail. First off a providence kid just signed with Edmonton today. But second, you miss the point that every single other person who has tried to argue your side has gotten, so congratulations on being slow. The exercise evaluates the contract signed upon graduation. I'm far more aware of Mr. Ryan, in fact I referenced him above, because he played in Austria upon graduation and then Sweden before he finally made his way to the NHL. By the same argument the Austrian U20 league is an NHL feeder because Thomas Raffl signed with Winnipeg about a decade after playing his last U20 game. The contract a player signs immediately upon graduation is the best evaluator we have of his relative skill when he last played for the university. Ryan signed in Hungary, so his skill at that time is best evaluated as Hungary level. Also, you haven't done much research on CIS kids, they're lucky if they can sign in europe, I think higher European leagues should start keying into them. You are correct when you say as I mentioned already that 5 Alberta kids signed ECHL deals, and one signed in the AHL. Usually the AHL number is higher for the CIS, and less ECHL but that may be changing? You keep oscillating between a good point and a bad point. You're not even giving anecdotal references about players who turn down deals, nor are you specifying where the deals come from, and forget statistics...I'm not going to get any from you it seems.

The fact that you watched a few games or even many games and had a good time means nothing. I also enjoy watching pee wee and the teams remind me of other teams, wonderful evidence. A lot has been provided against the usage of friendlies as a skill parameter. Others have stopped contesting, but you haven't even addressed why friendlies should be used as a parameter.

If the object is to see who can convince you of one side, you've won, lol, I won't be able to.

You keep referencing these pro contracts to show NCAA is way further ahead. I know that NCAA produce more NHLers. That is not the question. I have already explained why CIS players do not get pro contracts. If a team has a choice between a 22 year old NCAA player or a 26 year old, they will nearly choose a 22 year old every time. It does not come down to ability, it comes down to age. Nobody really knows the exact number of top CHLers who reject pro offers and then play CIS, but from speaking to some GBs its a ton. A majority of them had pro offers out of CHL. So you cant really use contract numbers since CHL players turn them down.
The CIS is basically made up of all the best undrafted CHL players who chose education over a life of riding buses in the AHL. They are no scrubs that couldnt get pro deals. They easily could have.

The debate is not about who signs more pro contracts. The only reason I brought up Bears receiving so many pro contracts is that it is highly abnormal for a program to receive so many pro contracts. The fact 6/6 25 year old+ players received pro deals is unreal and a massive testment to the program. But again, debate is about how a CIS team would do in a tourney with NCAA teams


I know NCAA as a whole is better than CIS, there is no debate from me. I know the NCAA produces more pro talent (although that comes down to age). My contention is that UNB or the Golden Bears in a frozen four style tourney against the best NCAA teams would do well. The Golden Bears are like the Chicago Blackhawks of the CIS. They are dominant and have been for numerous years. And they have taken down their fair share of NCAA teams in pre season. Say what you want about the Oilers or the Flames prospects, but the Bears routinely beat the best Oilers prospects (with all the high picks, and alot of them best on their junior teams) and the Dinos routinely beat the best Flames prospects (who again contain alot of older prospects and best guys on junior teams). And then the Bears routinely beat the Dinos.

And dont patronage me with the Pee Wee comment. Frig thats immature. I can watch CIS and I can watch NCAA on team and I can see the paces and styles of play. They arent that far off. The CIS teams just play a way tighter checking game with nearly no mistakes.

What else should be used a parimeter other than actual games when they play. Every time the CIS team win its the same excuse by NCAA fans. They werent playing best guys, they were resting. Ad Nasuem. I think Ill start using that excuse for when a CIS team loses, its so easy

I dont know why its so hard for a NCAA or American to admit. The CIS has some extremely quality teams who would challenge some of the best in NCAA and what beat some of the above average ones.

The Bears should be playing more NCAA teams this fall, so well see if they go 3-1 again. But whos knows, maybe the NCAA will be playing with opposite handed sticks and thats the reason they lost

 

[kabidjan18]

You keep referencing these pro contracts to show NCAA is way further ahead. I know that NCAA produce more NHLers. That is not the question. I have already explained why CIS players do not get pro contracts. If a team has a choice between a 22 year old NCAA player or a 26 year old, they will nearly choose a 22 year old every time. It does not come down to ability, it comes down to age. Nobody really knows the exact number of top CHLers who reject pro offers and then play CIS, but from speaking to some GBs its a ton. A majority of them had pro offers out of CHL. So you cant really use contract numbers since CHL players turn them down.
The CIS is basically made up of all the best undrafted CHL players who chose education over a life of riding buses in the AHL. They are no scrubs that couldnt get pro deals. They easily could have.

The debate is not about who signs more pro contracts. The only reason I brought up Bears receiving so many pro contracts is that it is highly abnormal for a program to receive so many pro contracts. The fact 6/6 25 year old+ players received pro deals is unreal and a massive testment to the program. But again, debate is about how a CIS team would do in a tourney with NCAA teams


I know NCAA as a whole is better than CIS, there is no debate from me. I know the NCAA produces more pro talent (although that comes down to age). My contention is that UNB or the Golden Bears in a frozen four style tourney against the best NCAA teams would do well. The Golden Bears are like the Chicago Blackhawks of the CIS. They are dominant and have been for numerous years. And they have taken down their fair share of NCAA teams in pre season. Say what you want about the Oilers or the Flames prospects, but the Bears routinely beat the best Oilers prospects (with all the high picks, and alot of them best on their junior teams) and the Dinos routinely beat the best Flames prospects (who again contain alot of older prospects and best guys on junior teams). And then the Bears routinely beat the Dinos.

And dont patronage me with the Pee Wee comment. Frig thats immature. I can watch CIS and I can watch NCAA on team and I can see the paces and styles of play. They arent that far off. The CIS teams just play a way tighter checking game with nearly no mistakes.

What else should be used a parimeter other than actual games when they play. Every time the CIS team win its the same excuse by NCAA fans. They werent playing best guys, they were resting. Ad Nasuem. I think Ill start using that excuse for when a CIS team loses, its so easy

I dont know why its so hard for a NCAA or American to admit. The CIS has some extremely quality teams who would challenge some of the best in NCAA and what beat some of the above average ones.

The Bears should be playing more NCAA teams this fall, so well see if they go 3-1 again. But whos knows, maybe the NCAA will be playing with opposite handed sticks and thats the reason they lost

More text. A lot more text. More refusing to even give anecdotes. More refusing to give numbers. More unsubstantiated numbers (ex. average graduating NCAA senior is around 24, not 22, which is why the Big 10 age limit debate). More decidedly not addressing arguments.

What about this. You're really choking on addressing my argument, and that's ok, because mine is a numbers and weight of numbers argument, and that's not your forte. Let's try just focus on the more verbal based argument. Explain to me why a friendly match is substantial evidence. Just do that, forget my argument, others addressed it many times better. Explain why a friendly match is legitimate data. I don't particularly feel like discussing this topic as it's been settled with others but if you want to stay busy just answer me that.

 

[Hanji]

Against some weak CIS teams. U of A is a tremendous program. So to anyone who thinks a NCAA team would run over them, you are very off base.

Sure ill give it to the NCAA that as a whole is above the CIS. But put in UNB or CIS into a tourney with the top NCAA teams and they will do well. Which is what this thread is about

The NCAA and CIS have probably the same gap as KHL to AHL. In a league wide tourney the KHL would dust the AHL teams. But take the 2 best AHL teams vs good KHL teams and itd be close

You keep referencing these pro contracts to show NCAA is way further ahead. I know that NCAA produce more NHLers. That is not the question. I have already explained why CIS players do not get pro contracts. If a team has a choice between a 22 year old NCAA player or a 26 year old, they will nearly choose a 22 year old every time. It does not come down to ability, it comes down to age. Nobody really knows the exact number of top CHLers who reject pro offers and then play CIS, but from speaking to some GBs its a ton. A majority of them had pro offers out of CHL. So you cant really use contract numbers since CHL players turn them down.
The CIS is basically made up of all the best undrafted CHL players who chose education over a life of riding buses in the AHL. They are no scrubs that couldnt get pro deals. They easily could have.

The debate is not about who signs more pro contracts. The only reason I brought up Bears receiving so many pro contracts is that it is highly abnormal for a program to receive so many pro contracts. The fact 6/6 25 year old+ players received pro deals is unreal and a massive testment to the program. But again, debate is about how a CIS team would do in a tourney with NCAA teams


I know NCAA as a whole is better than CIS, there is no debate from me. I know the NCAA produces more pro talent (although that comes down to age). My contention is that UNB or the Golden Bears in a frozen four style tourney against the best NCAA teams would do well. The Golden Bears are like the Chicago Blackhawks of the CIS. They are dominant and have been for numerous years. And they have taken down their fair share of NCAA teams in pre season. Say what you want about the Oilers or the Flames prospects, but the Bears routinely beat the best Oilers prospects (with all the high picks, and alot of them best on their junior teams) and the Dinos routinely beat the best Flames prospects (who again contain alot of older prospects and best guys on junior teams). And then the Bears routinely beat the Dinos.

And dont patronage me with the Pee Wee comment. Frig thats immature. I can watch CIS and I can watch NCAA on team and I can see the paces and styles of play. They arent that far off. The CIS teams just play a way tighter checking game with nearly no mistakes.

What else should be used a parimeter other than actual games when they play. Every time the CIS team win its the same excuse by NCAA fans. They werent playing best guys, they were resting. Ad Nasuem. I think Ill start using that excuse for when a CIS team loses, its so easy

I dont know why its so hard for a NCAA or American to admit. The CIS has some extremely quality teams who would challenge some of the best in NCAA and what beat some of the above average ones.

The Bears should be playing more NCAA teams this fall, so well see if they go 3-1 again. But whos knows, maybe the NCAA will be playing with opposite handed sticks and thats the reason they lost

You might want to check your facts. Who are all these NCAA teams the Alberta Golden Bears have taken down? Please tell me.
I just ran through all the CIS/NCAA scores for the past 10 years, and Alberta has a 1-4-2 record, including 2 ties this year against first year D1 program Arizona State, who are probably the absolute worst team in recent NCAA history. Also, in that time span, UNB has a 13-18-2 record.

Considering the absolute best programs the CIS has to offer have sub .500 records against NCAA teams, no, they wouldn't do very well in the Frozen Four.

 

[kabidjan18]

You might want to check your facts. Who are all these NCAA teams the Alberta Golden Bears have taken down? Please tell me.
I just ran through all the CIS/NCAA scores for the past 10 years, and Alberta has a 1-4-2 record, including 2 ties this year against first year D1 program Arizona State, who are probably the absolute worst team in recent NCAA history. Also, in that time span, UNB has a 13-18-2 record.

Considering the absolute best programs the CIS has to offer have sub .500 records against NCAA teams, no, they wouldn't do very well in the Frozen Four.

http://www.thesundevils.com/SportSelect.dbml?&DB_OEM_ID=30300&SPID=166608&SPSID=971111
Dec 4th and 5th, just to offer a source. Of course the same relevance question applies to both side but...

 

[Hanji]

Scratch that. I missed 2 Uof A games. They have a 3-4-2 record against NCAA teams the past 10 years. Still a sub-.500 team/program. Unlikely that they would even make the Frozen Four if they played in the NCAA.