NCAA / CHL Lawsuit

[MiamiHockeyII]

That's a relatively recent phenomenon. Junior A leagues were more a part of the ladder in days past. Junior C used to lead to Junior B which used to lead to Junior A which led to major junior. It was a bit different because you'd have 14-year-olds showing up to try out and Junior B and C camps, and that's thankfully not a thing anymore. But there are going to be players looking for places to play. This doesn't change the numbers of players, and Junior A teams will still be using their numbers of graduated players as marketing pitches to both fans and prospective players, so they might talk more about how many of their players moved along to major junior and then to NHL teams.

I'd suspect Junior A will get a lot younger - and maybe they get out of the 20-year-old business entirely. At the end of the day, this looks like a reset to a more streamlined and hierarchical development system.

Perhaps your definition of recent differs from mine, but it's been more than 25 years since that Jr C to Jr B to Jr A pathway existed, wherever it even did. Guys I recruited in the early 2000s went Midget AAA (18U, 16U) to Jr A, with some having a Jr B cup of coffee enroute.

 

[MeHateHe]

Perhaps your definition of recent differs from mine, but it's been more than 25 years since that Jr C to Jr B to Jr A pathway existed, wherever it even did. Guys I recruited in the early 2000s went Midget AAA (18U, 16U) to Jr A, with some having a Jr B cup of coffee enroute.

Yeah, I'm old and it's rude to point that out.

 

[AUS Fan]

In my opinion he is head and shoulders above both, but I might not the most neutral party.

To try to get away from this specific player and back to the overall topic of this thread, my point is that I think the biggest impacts of this will be on (the few) graduating American CHLers, with the rest generally coming out in the wash.

And at the end of the day I'm a DAL fan... so none of this will impact how much we perpetually suck in the slightest.

I used to be with the DAL team when Darrel was there. After he was "fired", I wandered the desert for 40 years until I found SMU. I still go to all the DAL games.

I do agree with your premise regarding the impact of this "merger".

Glad to see a DAL person on here. I hope you can be a regular.

 

[dm8895]

I used to be with the DAL team when Darrel was there. After he was "fired", I wandered the desert for 40 years until I found SMU. I still go to all the DAL games.

I do agree with your premise regarding the impact of this "merger".

Glad to see a DAL person on here. I hope you can be a regular.

You mean not everyone wants to watch people from Fredericton debate UNB’s 13th forward ?

 

[Campy]

Forget hockey, kids, lawyerin's where your fortunes is.

Of all the posts in this thread, this is still the only one that holds water

 

[EH7]

I used to be with the DAL team when Darrel was there. After he was "fired", I wandered the desert for 40 years until I found SMU. I still go to all the DAL games.

I do agree with your premise regarding the impact of this "merger".

Glad to see a DAL person on here. I hope you can be a regular.

Thanks for the warm welcome. I've been a very regular lurker of the AUS threads here but have never had too much to contribute over the years...

I rarely missed any home games in my time as a student spanning two degrees back in the early 2000s. That all changed when they tore down Memorial Arena in 2012 - I've kept loose tabs on the team from afar since then but swore I would never watch a home game that wasn't played on campus based on principle. Obviously, that will shortly change and I'm looking forward to getting back into it.

 

[EvilDead]

I wonder if the wave of players that could come over the northern border from the Major Juniors could result in a rapid expansion in the number of D1 programs. I mean...I would have to think that, with a deeper talent pool, it would open the door for many smaller universities or other colleges that had been non committal into finally adding a D1 Hockey program.

 

[MiamiHockeyII]

I wonder if the wave of players that could come over the northern border from the Major Juniors could result in a rapid expansion in the number of D1 programs. I mean...I would have to think that, with a deeper talent pool, it would open the door for many smaller universities or other colleges that had been non committal into finally adding a D1 Hockey program.

Wave?

I don't think this will have a positive effect on NCAA Div I hockey. In fact, I think in the long run we'll see a contraction of DI men's hockey because Major Junior will return to its predominant position as the NHL pipeline.

Two reasons:

1) The NCAA's appeal for top prospects (versus the CHL) is that they offer the opportunity to develop over a longer period of time while also providing an education. Now, top prospects will be better off going to the CHL while still retaining the NCAA option. The Macklin Celebrinis and Jack Eichels will play in the CHL moving forward.

2) You need a facility or ~$50M to build it, and then >$2M / year to run the program with scholarships. There are not many schools with that type of support.

You also have the issue of Title IX, where for every male athlete scholarship you need a female athlete scholarship. So, double the yearly costs.

All this with the likelihood of not getting the top prospects through your program?

 

[EH7]

You also have the issue of Title IX, where for every male athlete scholarship you need a female athlete scholarship. So, double the yearly costs.

One would hope that the growth of the PWHL and women's hockey as a whole will balance this out in the long term?

 

[Corso]

Wave?

I don't think this will have a positive effect on NCAA Div I hockey. In fact, I think in the long run we'll see a contraction of DI men's hockey because Major Junior will return to its predominant position as the NHL pipeline.

Two reasons:

1) The NCAA's appeal for top prospects (versus the CHL) is that they offer the opportunity to develop over a longer period of time while also providing an education. Now, top prospects will be better off going to the CHL while still retaining the NCAA option. The Macklin Celebrinis and Jack Eichels will play in the CHL moving forward.

2) You need a facility or ~$50M to build it, and then >$2M / year to run the program with scholarships. There are not many schools with that type of support.

You also have the issue of Title IX, where for every male athlete scholarship you need a female athlete scholarship. So, double the yearly costs.

All this with the likelihood of not getting the top prospects through your program?

Another factor to consider is the recent House settlement that provides revenue sharing to athletes. The vast amount of money that was once swishing around from football (and lesser extent basketball) revenue will soon be redirected towards the players and the ever-increasing NIL arms race currently happening in the FBS. Less and less money will be available for the non-revenue sports.

 

[MiamiHockeyII]

One would hope that the growth of the PWHL and women's hockey as a whole will balance this out in the long term?

Well, there is and will certainly be a deeper pool of female hockey talent.

But, outside of a few top programs, women's NCAA hockey draws zero crowd support and is a massive drain on resources.

Look at the video of this game between two top programs (Clarkson and SLU) that are rivals and but a 15 minute drive apart ... and you'll see that the student band makes up half the crowd:

Another factor to consider is the recent House settlement that provides revenue sharing to athletes. The vast amount of money that was once swishing around from football (and lesser extent basketball) revenue will soon be redirected towards the players and the ever-increasing NIL arms race currently happening in the FBS. Less and less money will be available for the non-revenue sports.

This is a factor, but realistically not a major concern for hockey. The few NCAA schools that have DI hockey and football draw well for both (Minn, Wisc, Mich, etc.) and most DI hockey programs are at schools without legitimate DI football programs (UND, UNO, BU, etc.). Men's hockey will be fine.

 

[AUS Fan]

I just want to make the observation that the discussion on this particular Thread has been topnotch.

Lots of good comments by all.

 

[dm8895]

DI Council introduces proposal for preenrollment activities for men’s ice hockey, skiing - NCAA.org

The Division I Council on Tuesday introduced a proposal to change rules for preenrollment activities in men's ice hockey and skiing, which would enable prospects

www.ncaa.org

Vote in November , if approved would take effect for 2025-2026 season.

 

[AUS Fan]

This part could be a problem for some CHL players: "as long as they are not paid more than actual and necessary expenses as part of that participation."

 

[MiamiHockeyII]

This part could be a problem for some CHL players: "as long as they are not paid more than actual and necessary expenses as part of that participation."

Good Catch.
One thing that occurred to me yesterday is that this change should end the game that CHL teams must play trying to predict which draft prospects likely prefer the NCAA.
It should also (hopefully) end the (alleged) questionable practices CHL teams have used to get players to join their programs, such as discreet payments. I suppose this NCAA policy is an attempt to address that issue, although any player who gets extra money from his Junior team to play is likely too talented a prospect to be considering the NCAA as a viable option.

 

[AUS Fan]

Good Catch.
One thing that occurred to me yesterday is that this change should end the game that CHL teams must play trying to predict which draft prospects likely prefer the NCAA.
It should also (hopefully) end the (alleged) questionable practices CHL teams have used to get players to join their programs, such as discreet payments. I suppose this NCAA policy is an attempt to address that issue, although any player who gets extra money from his Junior team to play is likely too talented a prospect to be considering the NCAA as a viable option.

Look at Power, Fantilli, Celebrini, Makar, to name a few. All these guys could have received "extra" money from a CHL team. I guess guys who have signed a pro contract and are sent back to Junior would not fit the NCAA model. Lots of moving parts....

 

[BadgerBruce]

This part could be a problem for some CHL players: "as long as they are not paid more than actual and necessary expenses as part of that participation."

Possibly, but roughly a decade ago the CHL leagues changed the “stipend” language in the Standard Player Agreement to “reimbursement.” This occurred when the first minimum wage class action suits were filed in Canada — the three CHL leagues wanted the language in player contracts to match their assertion that the players are NOT employees.

 

[dm8895]

Translated French article talking about potential impact on USports with Patrick Grandmaitre and Marc-Etienne Hubert.

Acceptation des joueurs de la LCH dans la NCAA: un vote sera tenu en novembre

C’est en novembre prochain que les membres du conseil de la division 1 du hockey de la NCAA passeront au vote concernant l’acceptation ou non des joueurs de la Ligue canadienne de hockey (LCH) dans leurs rangs. Proposée cette semaine, cette nouvelle législation entourant le recrutement des...

www-lenouvelliste-ca.translate.goog

Hockey news article as well…

https://thehockeynews.com/news/what-happens-when-chl-players-are-allowed-to-join-the-ncaa

Definitely some bleak discussion around the CIS…

 

[AUS Fan]

Translated French article talking about potential impact on USports with Patrick Grandmaitre and Marc-Etienne Hubert.

Acceptation des joueurs de la LCH dans la NCAA: un vote sera tenu en novembre

C’est en novembre prochain que les membres du conseil de la division 1 du hockey de la NCAA passeront au vote concernant l’acceptation ou non des joueurs de la Ligue canadienne de hockey (LCH) dans leurs rangs. Proposée cette semaine, cette nouvelle législation entourant le recrutement des...

www-lenouvelliste-ca.translate.goog

Hockey news article as well…

https://thehockeynews.com/news/what-happens-when-chl-players-are-allowed-to-join-the-ncaa

Definitely some bleak discussion around the CIS…

The Hockey News story just reinforces what I've said a few times -Lots of moving parts.

Way more questions than answers.

 

[MiamiHockeyII]

Interview with the USHL Commissioner:

Worth watching.

 

[AUS Fan]

Good show. I really like Colby Cohen. I've watched him over the years on NCAA Regional and Frozen Four broadcasts.

My main takeaway from this is what I've been saying. A lot of moving parts. CHL contracts are only one of many.

I'm sure after the vote in November, there'll be more articles and discussion.

 

[dm8895]

Noah Kosick a Michigan commit (Sioux Falls USHL) headed to the Calgary Hitmen.

 

[AUS Fan]

Noah Kosick a Michigan commit (Sioux Falls USHL) headed to the Calgary Hitmen.

Interesting. An article in March states that he was going to Michigan instead of Calgary, who drafted him with the 11th pick last year.

 

[MiamiHockeyII]

Good show. I really like Colby Cohen. I've watched him over the years on NCAA Regional and Frozen Four broadcasts.

My main takeaway from this is what I've been saying. A lot of moving parts. CHL contracts are only one of many.

I'm sure after the vote in November, there'll be more articles and discussion.

My main takeaway, reading between the lines, is that the USHL is going to become the 4th Major Junior league and compete for the Memorial Cup. It seems just a matter of time.

 

[Hollywood3]

My two bits:
- Any change re eligibility will not change the number of teams. (That is determined by fan & sponsor support.)
- The number of players available for high level hockey will not be affected. This will just shuffle where some will play.
- IMO the "loser" will be Junior A, USHL, and NAHL teams who will lose players who "play down a level" from major junior to maintain NCAA eligibility. However, those who skip those leagues for major junior will create a player who would otherwise have played major junior who will be released.

So even if every USports team loses a major junior recruit, that player will be replaced by a Junior A recruit, and that Junior A player may have been a Major Junior player under the old system anyhow.