Nazem Kadri - Part 3

[mikebel111*]

With all theses supposed stats people post on here, what they fail to show is that Bozak plays against the top line centres compared to who Kadri plays against. Those numbers are worthless when it actually doesn't compare the ice time and versus stats. Kadri doesn't face off against Crosby, Spezza, Tavares, or Krejci so keep your numbers and until Kadri can win a face off or actually compete against those top liners night after night consistently then we can look at the numbers.

Agreed except when u say until he can win a face off
He was 51% until yesterdays game in last 21 games

 

[leafstilldeath*]

With all theses supposed stats people post on here, what they fail to show is that Bozak plays against the top line centres compared to who Kadri plays against. Those numbers are worthless when it actually doesn't compare the ice time and versus stats. Kadri doesn't face off against Crosby, Spezza, Tavares, or Krejci so keep your numbers and until Kadri can win a face off or actually compete against those top liners night after night consistently then we can look at the numbers.

Bozo has been in this league for how long? Has played against some strong Cs head to head for how long?

How long for Kadri in similar roles?

Did you fail to see that since Carlyle has been the coach Toronto has always had a checking line where Bozo doesn't play against other team's top line.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Bozo has been in this league for how long? Has played against some strong Cs head to head for how long?

How long for Kadri in similar roles?

Did you fail to see that since Carlyle has been the coach Toronto has always had a checking line where Bozo doesn't play against other team's top line.

I want you to tell me who's pass Bozak broke up before setting up the game winning goal to Kessel against Vancouver just before the Olympic break.

Keep up the inaccuracies, If Bozak doesn't face top lines, you are saying JVR and Kessel are facing weak combinations too. LOL

 

[mikebel111*]

I am still of the opinion that if kadri is out there in the last minute of game 7.
We are headed to round 2

 

[Kyle Doobas*]

I am still of the opinion that if kadri is out there in the last minute of game 7.
We are headed to round 2

Why? From what I remember, the main problem was that we couldn't win a draw, and he's our worst faceoff guy.

 

[mikebel111*]

Why? From what I remember, the main problem was that we couldn't win a draw, and he's our worst faceoff guy.

I didnt mean taking the faceoff. I meant holding the lead

 

[King85Kong]

Comparison (updated)

Age 22/23

Tyler Bozak 37 GP, 8 G, 19 A, 27 P, -5
Nazem Kadri 48 GP, 18 G, 26 A, 44 P, 15

Age 23/24

Tyler Bozak 82 GP, 15 G, 17 A, 32 P, -29
Nazem Kadri 57 GP, 15 G, 27 A, 42 P, -10 (on going)

I think +/- is highly overrated, but others take it as gospel, so I included it. Don't want to be accused of hiding anything. If you do like +/-, then Kadri is looking not bad at all in comparison.
Kadri was heating up until Kulemin was taken off the line, but is still going to smash Bozak's numbers for the second year.

People forget that Bozak also had weaknesses at those early stages, and has improved over the years. Plus plays with better wingers, and gets 1st PP time. Bozak has played well this year, and has taken major steps at 28 years old. And Kadri will make large steps in his game too, and is on pace to do very well. Some just has blind hate for the kid. He just has skills that can't be matched by our other centers.

 

[Kadri43*]

See, this is a perfect example of where the Bozak militants tend to draw the wrong conclusion due to confirmation bias.

They conclude that because the team started winning when he came back Bozak > Kadri. But Kadri didn't replace Bozak, he just moved up to the top line, leaving a void on the second line. In this situation you have to mostly compare Bozak to Holland, McClement, and Smith. Those are the guys who ate up most of his ice time, while Kadri got maybe a couple extra minutes per game. Furthermore, Kadri himself missed 3+ games during that stretch.

I agree with people employing a confirmation bias.

At the same time, how well did JVR, Kessel and Bozak do prior to Bozak getting hurt? How well did the line do when centered by Kadri? How well did Kadri do prior to the Bozak injury and how has he played once going back on the second line?
It is perfectly reasonable to suggest that Bozak compliments the top line better than Kadri. Kadri is doing fine on the second line but he just was not as productive on the first line. Moreover, if Bozak centers the second line, his production and the whole line might falter.

 

[TheVision]

I agree with people employing a confirmation bias.

At the same time, how well did JVR, Kessel and Bozak do prior to Bozak getting hurt? How well did the line do when centered by Kadri? How well did Kadri do prior to the Bozak injury and how has he played once going back on the second line?
It is perfectly reasonable to suggest that Bozak compliments the top line better than Kadri. Kadri is doing fine on the second line but he just was not as productive on the first line. Moreover, if Bozak centers the second line, his production and the whole line might falter.

I think we need to do away with the whole 1st line 2nd line thing, as with Coach Carlyle's system, it seems kind of moot. You have Scoring Line 1, Scoring Line 2, Checking Line, and whatever it is we're calling that 4th line. Bozak works well with Kessel & JVR; nobody can deny that! When it comes playoff time, it could be that checking line going up against the big boys on the other team; we'll have to wait and see.

Kadri and Lupul have worked in the past, and may again. If Nonis can find another Top 6 winger, than that's your second scoring line. Kadri is nowhere near ready to play against the big boys on a regular basis. If you didn't notice the other night (vs the Isles), he was pulled for almost every faceoff near the end of the game for Bozak. So obviously the coach doesn't trust him in those situations. Whoever suggested if Kadri were on the ice last Spring in Game 7 it would have been a different outcome needs to get their head checked out. He's still very VERY raw in faceoffs and defensive play. He's fine right where he is in a secondary scoring capacity. I personally feel that's where he will settle in nicely for the rest of his career, good secondary scoring.

All I know is that this team needs those 2 scoring lines to be producing at all times now down the stretch. And Kadri will have to play a big part in that. So, if he's matured the way he suggests he has, now is the time to see it; no more excuses for the kid.

 

[mikebel111*]

I have seen on countless times where kadri is the one pressuring his man and does well.
Underrated fore checker.
Kid should have been there in last minute in game 7 with another C so they could take the faceoff.
Great myth kadri is bad on D

 

[mikebel111*]

Mclement looked great protecting the lead in game 7
Not all on him but kadri who pressures really well and will actually hit in that situation.

Like i said. RC is s huge liar when he said kadri is good on defensive end. Right?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I agree with people employing a confirmation bias.

At the same time, how well did JVR, Kessel and Bozak do prior to Bozak getting hurt? How well did the line do when centered by Kadri? How well did Kadri do prior to the Bozak injury and how has he played once going back on the second line?
It is perfectly reasonable to suggest that Bozak compliments the top line better than Kadri. Kadri is doing fine on the second line but he just was not as productive on the first line. Moreover, if Bozak centers the second line, his production and the whole line might falter.

Prior to Bozak coming back on Dec 27 against Carolina, they were pointless with Kadri as the #1C 6 games prior and compiled huge minuses. The #1 line had 6 points, 2 from Bozak and were all pluses in that game Dec 27 game and haven't stopped since.

People can claim this a coincidence all they but simply the facts do not substantiate this. Bozak is a better Center for Kessel and JVR, and it isn't close at all. Bozak is more rounded and he does all the little things that continually are not noticed that a flashier Kadri doesn't. They are different players, when Bozak is not noticed he still does positive things. Kadri has to be noticed to be effective.

 

[CerebralDevil]

I think comparing Bozak and Kadri is dumb, plain and simple. Bozak didn't have JVR early in his career and didn't have the talent they have now. Kadri has had more talent to play with compared to Bozak earlier in their seasons. Kadri is good, very good, but needs time to develop more obviously. When Kadri played on the first line this year he didn't do very well. It's a different vibe and more responsibilities for a 1c, Bozak has taken the role and progressed with it. Bozak struggled too with the role but has evolved nicely with his wingers and face offs, Kadri suits the 2nd line and can stay there to develope. Don't understand why this is a major issue? I wouldn't trade Kadri to Van-Kesler, kelser is a broken down player at this point in his career. Yes he can produce at a high level still but his game isn't the same. Kadri will do fine with TML

 

[The Blue Devil]

I think comparing Bozak and Kadri is dumb, plain and simple. Bozak didn't have JVR early in his career and didn't have the talent they have now. Kadri has had more talent to play with compared to Bozak earlier in their seasons. Kadri is good, very good, but needs time to develop more obviously. When Kadri played on the first line this year he didn't do very well. It's a different vibe and more responsibilities for a 1c, Bozak has taken the role and progressed with it. Bozak struggled too with the role but has evolved nicely with his wingers and face offs, Kadri suits the 2nd line and can stay there to develope. Don't understand why this is a major issue? I wouldn't trade Kadri to Van-Kesler, kelser is a broken down player at this point in his career. Yes he can produce at a high level still but his game isn't the same. Kadri will do fine with TML

Yeah, poor Bozak only had that fat Kessel kid to play with.

 

[mikebel111*]

I think comparing Bozak and Kadri is dumb, plain and simple. Bozak didn't have JVR early in his career and didn't have the talent they have now. Kadri has had more talent to play with compared to Bozak earlier in their seasons. Kadri is good, very good, but needs time to develop more obviously. When Kadri played on the first line this year he didn't do very well. It's a different vibe and more responsibilities for a 1c, Bozak has taken the role and progressed with it. Bozak struggled too with the role but has evolved nicely with his wingers and face offs, Kadri suits the 2nd line and can stay there to develope. Don't understand why this is a major issue? I wouldn't trade Kadri to Van-Kesler, kelser is a broken down player at this point in his career. Yes he can produce at a high level still but his game isn't the same. Kadri will do fine with TML

My issue is people trading kadri because apparently holland made him expendable. That was dumb from the start.
Why cant we have 2 great C's on the team?
Bozak
Kadri
Both are very important to this team.
Bozak is really reliable on both ends. All rounder like in the game cricket. But IMO his skill is very underrated. Clutch in break aways
Why trade the other?
Maybe people dont know what its like to have 2 solid players

 

[CerebralDevil]

My issue is people trading kadri because apparently holland made him expendable. That was dumb from the start.
Why cant we have 2 great C's on the team?
Bozak
Kadri
Both are very important to this team.
Bozak is really reliable on both ends. All rounder like in the game cricket. But IMO his skill is very underrated. Clutch in break aways
Why trade the other?
Maybe people dont know what its like to have 2 solid players

I agree why fix something that isn't broken? The leafs have 2 very solid lines and when Bolland returns that would be 3 solid centers for a team that hasn't had squat for a decade. Sign Bolland and keep Holland cause we all know Raymond is gone either at that deadline or seasons end and same with Kulemin. So Holland plays wing next year or if there is a injury, the Leafs finally have legit pieces here and now people want them gone for a injury prone older player???? Nope don't get it

 

[The Winter Soldier]

The bottom line here is not any other player, it is Kadri.

Kadri made wingers last year better, for whatever reason whether it is tougher competition or the learning curve he hasn't been as good as this, this year.

I think it is very reasonable to think he played over his head last season, where he knocked it out of the park. He virtually went from a non factor to a projected 75 point pace + player overnight.

Maybe we need to temper our expectations, it is probably unfair to expect Kadri to match last year's pace. There are not many Center's that can put up 75 points a year and be a plus player. Case in point Take a look around the league.

The Kadri we are seeing now, if he tightens up is more likely the player we are seeing. I would like him to cut 10 points off per season like a Mike Richards did, to be better defensively. It's not all about points people. Team is greater than player.

For now, Kadri has to get his wingers going, this is the job of a Center, if he can we will be a far better team than we are now. If he can he is where he belongs as our team's #2C. If he can't get Lupul and Clarkson going, knowing Carlyle when Bolland is back to NHL speed, he will be tried there. The ball is in Kadri's hands.

 

[TheVision]

I agree why fix something that isn't broken? The leafs have 2 very solid lines and when Bolland returns that would be 3 solid centers for a team that hasn't had squat for a decade. Sign Bolland and keep Holland cause we all know Raymond is gone either at that deadline or seasons end and same with Kulemin. So Holland plays wing next year or if there is a injury, the Leafs finally have legit pieces here and now people want them gone for a injury prone older player???? Nope don't get it

Devilish, nobody on here suggested Kadri was "Expendable" because Holland appeared on the scene and was playing well; that was something this passive aggressive and incredibly biased Kadri lover liked to make up. It was suggested that if Holland can play as well as he was, then Nonis may be able to utilize Kadri and his upside to go after that ever elusive #1 Centre. It was then turned and twisted by a few Kadri lovers into more than it was: just armchair GMs suggesting that Nonis utilize Kadri's better upside to land a bigger piece, nothing more than that. But you can't say that around here without a few of Kadri's more immature fans taking it far too personally and attacking in return. NOBODY is untouchable, even the next coming known as Nazem Kadri!

 

[nuck]

We are a ways away from winning a championship in my eyes and again you do not trade young players for older well used players unless you believe you are very close to contending. I like Kadri's game as he bring great skill and a mean streak....as well as the ability to draw penalties. He is getting stronger and should be a good player for many years still.

If I was going to trade for a center Bozak would be the center I would move....his value is at the highest it will ever be and he is not a number one center that all teams need if they are going to compete for a championship. He gets out muscled at the dot as well as off the puck. Bozak is a useful player but he is currently having a career year.

Realistically Boz is riding a 22 game career best scoring streak. At one point I think his shooting was around 27%. You aren't going to fool another club into thinking he is a ppg guy based on that. Alex Steen was leading the league in scoring at one point. Hot streaks happen, and GMs understand that. His value is obviously up from a year ago but you wouldn't get anything close to what Kadri would bring on the trade market based on what Kadri did last year. That "streak" was done at age 22 and lasted 48 games. A Kesler or similar deal would require a young player with a big upside coming back and Boz could not be the main piece.

More importantly if the club thought that Bozak was a must keep player for 5 years at $4m+ then they must think he is an absolute steal today. Whether we think he is the perfect center for PK or not, the top line is humming and Tyler is generating top line offense and outperforming his contract. I cannot picture any GM messing with that productivity right now.

I like Kadri and what he might become. I can see him with 70+pt seasons in his future as well and I consider him the club's second most important forward but if it didn't require a further overpayment I would have a hard time arguing the club wouldn't be much stronger for the next couple of years at least. A Selke winner under 30 who also has two 70+ pts seasons under his belt. How often do players like that ever become available? I am fuzzy on all the injury comments too. Except for last season look at how few games he has missed in the last 6 years. How can someone be injury prone with a broken foot?

This club is close. They need to drop one "loose" offensive D man and add a solid defensive gut. They almost took the Bruins out last year with a weaker lineup. Kesler would give them a center the Bruins/Habs/Pens would have trouble dealing with.

There are very few players I would even contemplate dealing NK for, but Kesler is one. Addresses grit, size, and faceoff ability all at once.

 

[Kadri43*]

Prior to Bozak coming back on Dec 27 against Carolina, they were pointless with Kadri as the #1C 6 games prior and compiled huge minuses. The #1 line had 6 points, 2 from Bozak and were all pluses in that game Dec 27 game and haven't stopped since.

People can claim this a coincidence all they but simply the facts do not substantiate this. Bozak is a better Center for Kessel and JVR, and it isn't close at all. Bozak is more rounded and he does all the little things that continually are not noticed that a flashier Kadri doesn't. They are different players, when Bozak is not noticed he still does positive things. Kadri has to be noticed to be effective.

As per usual, good post.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I think comparing Bozak and Kadri is dumb, plain and simple. Bozak didn't have JVR early in his career and didn't have the talent they have now. Kadri has had more talent to play with compared to Bozak earlier in their seasons. Kadri is good, very good, but needs time to develop more obviously. When Kadri played on the first line this year he didn't do very well. It's a different vibe and more responsibilities for a 1c, Bozak has taken the role and progressed with it. Bozak struggled too with the role but has evolved nicely with his wingers and face offs, Kadri suits the 2nd line and can stay there to develope. Don't understand why this is a major issue? I wouldn't trade Kadri to Van-Kesler, kelser is a broken down player at this point in his career. Yes he can produce at a high level still but his game isn't the same. Kadri will do fine with TML

Kessel was a one way player when he got here, playing with him was not an easy thing as is widely posted here. Ask all the Centers that were tried with him.

It is reasonable to say, both Kessel and Bozak have grown as players together. Adding JVR to the mix who had to grow himself, was a perfect storm.

We should be happy as Leafs fans, but some are not, and really it all comes back to the anti slant some have for certain players.

 

[CerebralDevil]

Devilish, nobody on here suggested Kadri was "Expendable" because Holland appeared on the scene and was playing well; that was something this passive aggressive and incredibly biased Kadri lover liked to make up. It was suggested that if Holland can play as well as he was, then Nonis may be able to utilize Kadri and his upside to go after that ever elusive #1 Centre. It was then turned and twisted by a few Kadri lovers into more than it was: just armchair GMs suggesting that Nonis utilize Kadri's better upside to land a bigger piece, nothing more than that. But you can't say that around here without a few of Kadri's more immature fans taking it far too personally and attacking in return. NOBODY is untouchable, even the next coming known as Nazem Kadri!

I realize that nobody is untouchable, and there are some here saying Kadri should be traded. I was was one earlier in the year for crying out loud but that was me being a typical impatient Leaf fan. Right now as it stands I like what the TML have in the middle for years to come, I apologize if it came across as expendable but that's how it reads from a few people on here. Honestly for this team to get to the cup we need defence.

 

[Jacquestrapless]

So if Kadri plays poorly, we should trade him and if he plays well, we should.....trade him? No one thinks he can be part of the Leafs long term? Hope he stays.

 

[TheVision]

I realize that nobody is untouchable, and there are some here saying Kadri should be traded. I was was one earlier in the year for crying out loud but that was me being a typical impatient Leaf fan. Right now as it stands I like what the TML have in the middle for years to come, I apologize if it came across as expendable but that's how it reads from a few people on here. Honestly for this team to get to the cup we need defence.

The only way Nazem Kadri is traded is for an upgrade, be it at centre or possibly a top end YOUNG Defenseman. The word expendable was thrown around by Kadri supporters to bolster their argument against those of us that are much more critical of his play. As Interacif has said on more than one occasion: Kadri will be big for us, either as a high end offensive player for the Leafs OR as a piece in a trade that will bring back something very nice.

 

[Pi]

Kadri >> Bozak. Let's not get stupid.

Bozak is a good complimentary player though. Kadri can make things happen. Bozak will never be as talented as Kadri. Kadri can be as good as Bozak on defense though.

It easy to teach defense, it's impossible to teach talent.