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Nationwide Arena/CBJ Finances Discussion II

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Viqsi said:
To which my counterpoint is that the tax money it's coming from is from a casino which was equally opposed in Franklin County, and had been repeatedly equally opposed several times over the last few decades. It appeals to me as a form of poetic justice, really.
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Had not occurred to me. I like this.
 
KallioWeHardlyKnewYe said:
That works as long as the casino money covers the cost of the arena. If there are shortfalls, then taxpayers may have beef.

Devil's advocate. :D
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This is not true. Any shortfall from casino revenue absorbed by Nationwide in the form of slow or reduced payments.

From The Other Paper 9/15

According to the proposal, if the casino revenues are less than expected, Nationwide bears the risk of reduced or slow payments. Should the revenues be higher than projected, then the Nationwide loan would be paid off sooner.
"They put together just a fantastic deal," said Ohio State's Dr. Stephen Buser, who wrote the initial report identifying the Blue Jackets as the main economic driver of the Arena District and underscored the importance of local leaders finding a solution to the club's $12 million annual deficit. "The part I like best is that if the projections aren't right, Nationwide bears all the risk."
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Doubt the casinos are going to have any problems getting customers. Detroit has multiple casinos within the city limits only miles apart. Windsor, Canada also has a casino just across the Detroit River. Columbus for example will have one casino and no other competition. Detroits casinos still thrive in a weak economy. Columbus economy is not great but Detroits economy is horrible. Only time will tell but I think the odds of the casinos not doing well is minimal, especially in the beginning when everything will be bright, shiny and new.
 
FWIW...

I work at a casino on an Indian Reservation in Southern California. We say we are "San Diego" but in truth we are a good hour to hour & 1/2 away from downtown (depending on traffic). We are in BFE in the truest sense of the expression. You have to drive a 2-lane road to get here through rural areas that make the West Side look like Manhattan. In spite of this, we do just fine.

Gamblers are creatures of habit. They will go where they are comfortable and where they think they will win. Generally speaking, 20% of the customer base (high-end players) accounts for 80% of the revenue. I'm not familiar with this company, but if they entice high-end players with the right incentives (free play, cash, suites, rebates, whatever) and get a strong base of VIP customers loyal to them, that casino will generate a profit, regardless of where it is located.
 
wooten said:
This is not true. Any shortfall from casino revenue absorbed by Nationwide in the form of slow or reduced payments.

From The Other Paper 9/15
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Well problem solved then. :)
Thanks for pointing that out.

Guess the only real complaints left for those who oppose are philosophical.

I'm anticipating a drunken argument with a friend of mine soon who hates the city government, hates taxes and doesn't give a damn for the CBJ. I need to be sure I'm armed for the fight.
 
Byrral said:
Doubt the casinos are going to have any problems getting customers. Detroit has multiple casinos within the city limits only miles apart. Windsor, Canada also has a casino just across the Detroit River. Columbus for example will have one casino and no other competition. Detroits casinos still thrive in a weak economy. Columbus economy is not great but Detroits economy is horrible. Only time will tell but I think the odds of the casinos not doing well is minimal, especially in the beginning when everything will be bright, shiny and new.
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I expect it'll do fine.

My point all along about the the Arena District though is that I think it would do better there. This is, after all, an entertainment district with sporting events, concerts, hotels, conventions, etc. as opposed to ... an empty field where an auto parts plant once stood.

It not only would still get the regulars, but I suspect it would get more walk-in and tourist traffic than it will on the west side.

We'll never know the difference, of course, since an Arena District casino will likely never exist. Just feels like a missed opportunity to me.
 
KallioWeHardlyKnewYe said:
I expect it'll do fine.

My point all along about the the Arena District though is that I think it would do better there. This is, after all, an entertainment district with sporting events, concerts, hotels, conventions, etc. as opposed to ... an empty field where an auto parts plant once stood.

It not only would still get the regulars, but I suspect it would get more walk-in and tourist traffic than it will on the west side.

We'll never know the difference, of course, since an Arena District casino will likely never exist. Just feels like a missed opportunity to me.
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You make a very reasonable point, Kallio. I wonder if the feeling among city leaders was to attempt to recreate the success the Arena had in helping to revitalize a downtrodden section of town?
 
Nanabijou said:
Should be required reading for any of the opportunistic politicians (i.e. Ferris) before they start spouting off. If they can provide an intelligent counter-point, I'd love to hear it.
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Found out that the Jackass Ferris has a campaign twitter account, so I sent him a link to the story along with a not so nice message. This dude is just the bottom of the barrel, so anytime I tweet something about the arena or negative about him, I make sure I tag him on it.

BTW, his handle is @ferrisfriends

Is it the right thing to do?? Probably. Hehe. I just want people to know the lack of respect he has for our system before they go out to vote. :)
 
pete goegan said:
You make a very reasonable point, Kallio. I wonder if the feeling among city leaders was to attempt to recreate the success the Arena had in helping to revitalize a downtrodden section of town?
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That's the story they've been trying to spin, but I don't buy it for a second.

They didn't want the casino period.

When it was approved state-wide, they definitely didn't want it in their lovely Arena neighborhood (again, short-sighted IMO), so they fought to get it moved.

Once they got it moved there, they tried to throw any legal block at it they could.

Now they're at the point where they can't stop it or slow it any more, so they'll spin the story with the double benefit of saving the arena and potentially revitalizing the west side as if this was their plan all along.

In fairness to them, it looks like it very well may save the Arena and it could potentially lead to redevelopment on the west side (certainly SOMETHING there is better than nothing, though I wouldn't hold my breath for anything Easton-esque).

But I'll never give our political or business leaders credit for that though as much as they're going to take it.

If what has happened was the plan all along, this whole thing could've been resolved a few years ago.
 
We'll just have to wait and see if the casino has a positive effect on the west side. If it does, they'll be lining up to take the credit. If it doesn't...?
 
KallioWeHardlyKnewYe said:
I expect it'll do fine.

My point all along about the the Arena District though is that I think it would do better there. This is, after all, an entertainment district with sporting events, concerts, hotels, conventions, etc. as opposed to ... an empty field where an auto parts plant once stood.

It not only would still get the regulars, but I suspect it would get more walk-in and tourist traffic than it will on the west side.

We'll never know the difference, of course, since an Arena District casino will likely never exist. Just feels like a missed opportunity to me.
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A Casino in an entertainment district actually has a very chilling effect on the businesses around it. The losers, well they have lost their money and so don't have it to spend in the district. The winners, well the Casinos do everything in their power to see that the winning patron spend their winnings in the facilities offered with in the confines of that same casino. Remember the vast majority of casino visitors lose money. A gambling hall is not a charitable institution.

Saw this happen in Kansas City when the river boats first arrived. Moved away so can't judge the very long term results. But I really don't think you want a casino anywhere near the arena district.
 
I wouldn't put a casino anywhere near the Arena District. If for no other reason than that's all we need, drunk hockey players deciding it would be fun to walk over and gamble.
 
Roadman said:
A Casino in an entertainment district actually has a very chilling effect on the businesses around it. The losers, well they have lost their money and so don't have it to spend in the district. The winners, well the Casinos do everything in their power to see that the winning patron spend their winnings in the facilities offered with in the confines of that same casino. Remember the vast majority of casino visitors lose money. A gambling hall is not a charitable institution.

Saw this happen in Kansas City when the river boats first arrived. Moved away so can't judge the very long term results. But I really don't think you want a casino anywhere near the arena district.
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I'm not sure how much I buy that.

I think it only chills those who are going solely to the casino. And even if they don't/won't spend at local restaurants there still are going to be plenty who are presumably staying and parking downtown, so that's revenue that wasn't there before.

If you're going to an event and the casino is just part of your evening then you're either:
1) going to go after you've already spent money at the concert/sporting event/restaurant.
2) you'll go before your event to which you likely already have a ticket, so even if you lose your rear, the ticket has already been paid for. Maybe you don't spend as much at the event on beer/drinks.

But that doesn't strike me as much chilling.

This certainly won't be an issue on the west side since there is absolutely nothing else to do.
 
KallioWeHardlyKnewYe said:
I'm not sure how much I buy that.

I think it only chills those who are going solely to the casino. And even if they don't/won't spend at local restaurants there still are going to be plenty who are presumably staying and parking downtown, so that's revenue that wasn't there before.

If you're going to an event and the casino is just part of your evening then you're either:
1) going to go after you've already spent money at the concert/sporting event/restaurant.
2) you'll go before your event to which you likely already have a ticket, so even if you lose your rear, the ticket has already been paid for. Maybe you don't spend as much at the event on beer/drinks.

But that doesn't strike me as much chilling.

This certainly won't be an issue on the west side since there is absolutely nothing else to do.
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Just relating what I saw happen and it wasn't pretty. A casino is a great draw if there isn't anything else there in the area, but it will have a dampening effect on existing/competing for the entertainment dollar businesses in the area.
 
Roadman said:
Just relating what I saw happen and it wasn't pretty. A casino is a great draw if there isn't anything else there in the area, but it will have a dampening effect on existing/competing for the entertainment dollar businesses in the area.
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If what you say is true, then I suppose its probably a good thing it's out on the west side.
 
KallioWeHardlyKnewYe said:
Is a casino a centerpiece of economic redevelopment or a black hole of despair sucking all neighboring dollars into its darkened corridors?

It doesn't seem like it can be both. :dunno:

Time will tell.
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Or neither. A casino is just one more way the discretionary dollar can be be spent. Just one more way to slice the pie as it were. The gaming industry does have the allure of the premise that you can actually win money, that your entertainment dollar can function as an investment. While most people know that is in fact a fairly empty promise it does have great appeal.

The pie is only so big and can only be sliced so many ways. The casino will get it's piece. What remains to be seen is how big is that piece, whose pieces get smaller, and by how much?
 
KallioWeHardlyKnewYe said:
Is a casino a centerpiece of economic redevelopment or a black hole of despair sucking all neighboring dollars into its darkened corridors?
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How about people still want to eat and have a place to sleep? You might even get a mall out of it (Easton is pretty far off, Tuttle is an older mall). I'll be curious to see what ends up on the casino land itself. If you have out of town visitors, they might even want to play some golf as well.

Money will flow into the area and it will be sucked from other places. The question is how far out will it expand.
 
blahblah said:
How about people still want to eat and have a place to sleep? You might even get a mall out of it (Easton is pretty far off, Tuttle is an older mall). I'll be curious to see what ends up on the casino land itself. If you have out of town visitors, they might even want to play some golf as well.

Money will flow into the area and it will be sucked from other places. The question is how far out will it expand.
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Some of that will be sucked from other casinos. The IN locations across from Cincinnati will feel the effects as Columbus area people find it easier to stay close. You can bet the Casino interests will do everything they can to provide full service facilities. Hotel, restaurants, entertainment, spend it all there is the idea. While the overall impact to the broad area of Columbus may be a positive economically, my point about it's effect on an immediate smaller area, like the arena district remains valid.
 
The casino in Pittsburgh is in the North Shore entertainment district near both Heinz Field and PNC Park - and the attendant bars, restaurants and what-have-you. I share this not to shape opinion but to offer information. I have not been to the PGH casino - although I have been to several of the North Shore establishments, including Stage AE, which is the Lifestyle Pavilion-esque project there - nor do I have any idea what its place/role was intended to be/has become there.
 
Double-Shift Lassé said:
The casino in Pittsburgh is in the North Shore entertainment district near both Heinz Field and PNC Park - and the attendant bars, restaurants and what-have-you. I share this not to shape opinion but to offer information. I have not been to the PGH casino - although I have been to several of the North Shore establishments, including Stage AE, which is the Lifestyle Pavilion-esque project there - nor do I have any idea what its place/role was intended to be/has become there.
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What good are you for?
 
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