Nathan Mackinnon - the best player in the league

[the_fan]

I think with the cup win, the argument for better career can already be had (assuming McDavid doesn’t get one).

But in terms of better talent, part of what gives McDavid the edge is how long and how consistently he’s done it. It’ll be extremely difficult to win anything close to what McDavid has from an individual standpoint with 1 Richard, 3 Harts and 5 Art Rosses.

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Not gonna catch McDavid in Art Ross, but possibly the Hart. Obviously McDavid has put up more career points and has the better PPG, but that has a lot to do with McDavid having to carry the Oilers for some years when they weren’t as deep of a team as they are now, while MacKinnon played on a deeper team.

Oilers got deeper, McDavid started to play more of a two way game, because he realized that’s how he has to play for his team to have success, that’s why he hasn’t been leading the league in scoring for the past couple of seasons. Years ago when he was winning the Ross, all he was doing is cherry picking and couldn’t care less about defense.

Better offensive talent is McDavid. I won’t deny that, and if he takes his team all the way to championship, wins the cup, he’ll have the clear edge over Nate, and over anybody

 

[PuckG]

Not gonna catch McDavid in Art Ross, but possibly the Hart. Obviously McDavid has put up more career points and has the better PPG, but that has a lot to do with McDavid having to carry the Oilers for some years when they weren’t as deep of a team as they are now, while MacKinnon played on a deeper team.

Oilers got deeper, McDavid started to play more of a two way game, because he realized that’s how he has to play for his team to have success, that’s why he hasn’t been leading the league in scoring for the past couple of seasons. Years ago when he was winning the Ross, all he was doing is cherry picking and couldn’t care less about defense.

You could argue that in either direction. MacKinnon should be out producing McDavid playing with better players on a deeper team.

The only reason he didn’t out produce MacKinnon last season is games played.

Last season, McDavid had 1.74 ppg versus MacKinnon at 1.71.

This season is the first that MacKinnon has a higher ppg (1.64 vs 1.54) and that’s with half the season remaining and quite a difference in empty net points that has been noted in numerous threads. If anything, those empty net points are cherry picking.

His two way game has improved and he’s still producing the same or more.

 

[the_fan]

You could argue that in either direction. MacKinnon should be out producing McDavid playing with better players on a deeper team.

The only reason he didn’t out produce MacKinnon last season is games played.

Last season, McDavid had 1.74 ppg versus MacKinnon at 1.71.

This season is the first that MacKinnon has a higher ppg (1.64 vs 1.54) and that’s with half the season remaining and quite a difference in empty net points that has been noted in numerous threads. If anything, those empty net points are cherry picking.

His two way game has improved and he’s still out producing the same or more.

I edited my last post where I did say McDavid is the better offensive talent. He’s the best offensive talent in the world there is no denying that, it’s just that I value things like a player coming up clutch in big moments, that’s why in a game 7 of the finals, I’m taking Nate, unless McDavid shows that he can do it.

Actually if I’m not mistaking, McDavid went scoreless in game 6 and 7 in the finals. That’s a big deal to me, maybe it’s not for you and others, but for the guy who’s labeled to be the best player in the world, he needs to come up big in those moments. He just needed one or two points in game 7 and his team would have won the cup and didn’t get it done

 

[PuckG]

I edited my last post where I did say McDavid is the better offensive talent. He’s the best offensive talent in the world there is no denying that, it’s just that I value things like a player coming up clutch in big moments, that’s why in a game 7 of the finals, I’m taking Nate, unless McDavid shows that he can do it.

Actually if I’m not mistaking, McDavid went scoreless in game 6 and 7 in the finals. That’s a big deal to me, maybe it’s not for you and others, but for the guy who’s labeled to be the best player in the world, he needs to come up big in those moments. He just needed one or two points in game 7 and his team would have won the cup and didn’t get it done

I personally don’t think a two game sample size in career spanning 680 games is adequate enough to make that deduction, but fair enough.

 

[the_fan]

I personally don’t think a two game sample size in career spanning 680 games is adequate enough to make that deduction, but fair enough.

That’s fair too. We all have different views.

 

[Oilslick941611]

How nice it must be to draft a generational talent with the 1st overall pick.


-Yours Truly, a bitter NYR fan

Yah sucks for you guys since 06. You can’t just buy players anymore

- Yours truly, a fan of what used to be the NYR farm team and supplier of players for the 94 cup win

 

[DelZottoHitTheNetJK]

Yah sucks for you guys since 06. You can’t just buy players anymore

- Yours truly, a fan of what used to be the NYR farm team and supplier of players for the 94 cup win

Part of the problem is we're never bad enough to pick 1OA, including the one time recently we won the lottery.


...and Alexis Lafreniere is on the board. Nice player, not an organization redefining player.

How's that McDavid guy looking..?

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Boring thread. MacK definitely has his brief periods of looking like the best player in the league, but he has not done so with the same consistency and year after year the way McDavid has.

I’d say it’s a very legitimate thread, especially with the way a healthy McDavid has been getting outplayed by “lesser” stars in recent times.

 

[authentic]

I’d say it’s a very legitimate thread, especially with the way a healthy McDavid has been getting outplayed by “lesser” stars in recent times.

Well he started the season off with 10 points in 11 games (not healthy during this stretch as he missed time immediately after), that means he has 44 in 25 since returning from injury, after a playoff run of 42 in 25. MacKinnon currently has 11 empty net points on the season already so that helps boost him above McDavid in points per game for now but I’m not sure if that will remain by seasons end.

 

[MNRube]

McDavid seems to be more consistent than MacKinnon, so I’d probably keep him a half-tier ahead but have no issues with someone offering MacKinnkn.

I think Eichel is working his way back into the conversation. He’s a dominant two-way threat in a way McDavid is not. I have him with Barkov & Draisatl in the next best group of Cs.

 

[Maverick41]

Part of the problem is we're never bad enough to pick 1OA, including the one time recently we won the lottery.


...and Alexis Lafreniere is on the board. Nice player, not an organization redefining player.

How's that McDavid guy looking..?

The oilers surely got lucky with McDavid, but they are one of the franchises that know only too well what it's like to end up with an underwhelming pick at #1. They were just bad/lucky enough to get several chances to pick first.

 

[PuckG]

I’d say it’s a very legitimate thread, especially with the way a healthy McDavid has been getting outplayed by “lesser” stars in recent times.

Sure, if you ignore about 5-8 years of dominance and only look at the last one.

 

[Hasbro]

Yah sucks for you guys since 06. You can’t just buy players anymore

- Yours truly, a fan of what used to be the NYR farm team and supplier of players for the 94 cup win

He'll they weren't even able to buy a playoff team after '97. If anything the cap has protected the Rangers from themselves.

 

[TheStatican]

Strange time to post this considering there is so much season left and he is 5th in points per game. It’s been a tale of two 17 game blocks. Had 33 in the first 17 and 19 in his last 17.

It’s interesting how much can change in just half a month. MacKinnon is now not only first in points but also in points per game. He is currently the only player on pace for 130+ points this season. We'll see if he can maintain this pace for the remainder of the year and become just the sixth player to achieve 100 assists, joining Kucherov and McDavid as active players to have reached the mark. That said he faces some challenges to be sure. The league's top scorers have experienced a bit of a dip in production compared to the previous two seasons, even though overall scoring levels have remained relatively stable. To be sure, MacKinnon has benefited from empty-net scoring, a factor which aided Kucherov in securing the scoring title last season.

One thing seems certain though; the gap between McDavid and the league’s other top players (MacKinnon, Kucherov, Kaprizov) has narrowed significantly compared to years past. Some argue this is just because McDavid is less focused on regular-season accolades and more invested in postseason success. I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts on this Walt, as I consider you to be someone who understands the historical evaluation of players better than most on HFfourms.

Personally, I think McDavid, MacKinnon, and Kucherov can now be viewed as “1a, 1b, and 1c” relative to one another, which, is a stark contrast to the clear dominance of Gretzky and Lemieux over their contemporaries at their peaks in their time. Certainly no one can take away for the dominance McDavid had over his peers in couple of year, but is that truly enough to elevate him into rarefied territory(along with his other accolades), i.e making the 'big 4' into the 'big 5'? Though perhaps it’s simply harder to dominate the league in this era, given the evolution and expansion of the game.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

The 16 and 17 pens would beat the 22 avalanche hands down so to say they are the best team in decades is a crazy statement. Many other teams have arguments since 2000 of being better as well. MacKinnon was brought to his cup via Makar who was their best player and on a very balanced and deep team.

The difference in resume’s between “the Dawg” and McDavid is staggering. 2 Hart, 5 Art Ross, 3 Ted Lindsay, 4 first team all stars, 1 Rocket Richard and 1 Conn Smythe. The gap in their resumes is comparable if not better than the career accolades of a Sidney Crosby caliber/tier career.

MacKinnon has never once topped McDavid in points per game in a season by season basis with 2015-16 as the start point and may not this year as it is only nearly halfway. McDavid has better head to head stats for regular season and playoffs. He has two seasons that are more dominant over peers than anyone since Gretzky and Mario that dwarf anything any of his contemporaries have achieved. Despite starting his career in 2013-14 and playing 150 more games than McDavid (started in 2015-16) he still has 73 LESS points. McDavid has 3 more playoff points in 14 less playoff games.

McDavid’s stats for peak, prime, even game sample sizes and career mutilate MacKinnon’s. McDavid is actually the third fastest to reach 1036 career points (679 games) even edging out Mike bossy by a game. Only Gretzky and Lemieux have done it faster. MacKinnon will probably reach 1000 points a little slower than Malkin did.

The point here is that McDavid’s resume is literally equivalent to Lemieux minus one Ross while MacKinnon has one Hart in a season he was slightly outproduced by Kucherov for the Ross. All I’m sure I’ll hear is that he has the one championship on a loaded roster in which he wasn’t the best player on his own team, while ignoring that his regular season ppg from 2022 would see him as the third best oiler. I completely understand having favorites and rooting for players but at a certain point objectivity needs to prevail. You are blinded by hate and bias.

Couldn't help but bring Crosby up could you. Lemieux also has a ross, smythe and 2 richards on mcdavid not to mention 2 cups

 

[nturn06]

That’s fair too. We all have different views.

Are you saying that your different view is that two games define a career?

 

[nturn06]

Couldn't help but bring Crosby up could you. Lemieux also has a ross, smythe and 2 richards on mcdavid not to mention 2 cups

2 of Lemieux Art Rosses came when he was older than McDavid. Same with a Hart, a Lindsay and a Richard.

 

[Toby91ca]

McDavid seems to be more consistent than MacKinnon, so I’d probably keep him a half-tier ahead but have no issues with someone offering MacKinnkn.

I think Eichel is working his way back into the conversation. He’s a dominant two-way threat in a way McDavid is not. I have him with Barkov & Draisatl in the next best group of Cs.

I don't think it has anything to do with consistency....perhaps you can even suggest MacKinnon is more consistent....I haven't looked at that at all, so could be totally wrong....but my point on consistency is that MacKinnon has tended to get better and better as the years go by, doesn't have a good year then dip back, etc. It wouldn't be 100% perfect math that shows higher PPG each year, but I'm guessing it shows pretty good consistency after a couple early growing years. McDavid has clearly been the superior offensive player, it's just that simple....not a consistency thing. Is MacKinnon starting to get people thinking now in terms of where he compares against McDavid currently, last year, this year, potentially moving forward? Maybe, but McDavid is still hanging around not far behind, so there would have to be a lot more evidence to knock McDavid off of the top player in the world. The best player in the world doesn't win the scoring title every year. Maybe this is where consistency comes in for him and other great players (not saying MacKinnon isn't there, but not to same extent). I think the best player in the world, offensively, can never win the scoring title.....what if he finishes 2nd every single year for 12 straight years and the #1 guy is a different player every year and that different player is all over the place, win out of the blue one year then drop to 20th the next, etc.

Anyway.....I see you commented on Eichel working his way into the conversation....I'll say this, totally just my opinion of course and I'll admit I don't like the guy at all (not that I know him that well.....just don't like the vibe I get from him).....he is nowhere near the conversation for best player in the world and I'm guessing, never will be.

 

[the_fan]

Are you saying that your different view is that two games define a career?

Not at all. When comparing McDavid and MacKinnon, all I said is in a game 7 of a finals, I’d take MacKinnon because he did come up clutch in the biggest game to win the cup. No where did I say that 2 games define career. It’s just my preference