Nathan MacKinnon, on par with the best in business?

[eviohh26]

Weird that this even needs to be asked. IMO. he is #2 behind McDavid. Then Kuch then Drai

 

[authentic]

Hmm, now what could possibly be in play here?

Yes, no one thought Benn was better—that’s why it was an embarrassment for Crosby to finish behind him twice in a row. So why could there possibly be an interest in crowning a pair of far better players than Benn, Tavares, Kane, and so on, so quickly when they had their likely peak, perfect storm seasons while McDavid was battling nagging injuries all season long?

Hmm, it’s almost as if we’re here, ten or so years later, and Crosby’s legacy must be protected because someone better showed up after him and has dominated more than even the most optimistic what if projections attributed to Crosby.

Weird how the mindset has shifted from not making stupid comments about Benn actually being better than Crosby to oh, MacKinnon in particular is better than McDavid because he had one perfect season while McDavid was injured level of stupidity?

Couldn’t possibly be Crosby fans in thinly veiled disguises protecting their hero in a roundabout way.

Your response only makes sense to me if you glossed over the part where I still said McDavid is #1. Like it or not when someone outscores everyone for 2 straight calendar years they atleast enter the discussion.

 

[authentic]

1. I change how I talk when interacting with certain members. @authentic is one where I level up my intensity because he gives as good as he gets and vice versa.

I’ve noticed you being condescending, so I’ve tailored our passing interactions accordingly.

2. The Oilers incompetence is widely known by this point. McDavid, while presumably an intelligent modern athlete, knows management will use and abuse to cover up their shortcomings. Yet he’s also the best at his craft and a highly competitive athlete who is still not even 28 years old. He will do what it takes to rejoin them as quickly as possible to help them win as much as possible. There’s no incompetence on his part.

McDavid had already won three Harts, been a finalist two other times, and been a top 5 nomination over the course of the previous seven seasons, while scooping up 5 Art Rosses and 4 Lindsays. He is judged against his own already higher standard than the next best players.

He’s battling that perception, so when the next best two players in world go out and have world beater seasons while fully healthy, and one of them had a reputation for always being the bridesmaid for the Hart, that one is going to be given it at the next best reasonable opportunity. It doesn’t mean MacKinnon didn’t earn it, it doesn’t mean he didn’t deserve it, but it is questionable to read much of anything into McDavid receiving a lone first place vote.

One minute I think we’re friends the next you hit me with stuff like this

It’s all in good fun anyway if I have been condescending it’s not intended, I have had mostly positive conversations on here lately with you and the rest of board from what I recall.

 

[22FUTON9]

He’s been absolute dogshit ever since this thread lol

 

[Video Nasty]

One minute I think we’re friends the next you hit me with stuff like this

It’s all in good fun anyway if I have been condescending it’s not intended, I have had mostly positive conversations on here lately with you and the rest of board from what I recall.

We’re good. You’re definitely not condescending. I meant I have so fun with you by going overboard sometimes with the McDavid stuff.

MacKinnon outscored him by 6 points in 2023 because he played 8 more games.

Let’s hold off on crowning him for 2024, since we still have over 5 weeks left.

 

[Murzu]

He’s been absolute dogshit ever since this thread lol

Yea, sorry for that

 

[lionsDen]

Have them switch teams and I think McDavid would be lapping him. Edmonton has never had a Makar on the backend.

There was a thread that compared rants Mack maker to drai mcd and Bouchard seemed some thought he was on makars level

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

McDavid goin to Utah or LA or TOR or NYR or 90% of cities instead of Edmonton would be great for the game.

Nah, the NHL will always be small potatoes in the US...no matter where the "stars" play

he just lead the Oilers to one game away from the Cup and his best friend just re-signed for 8 more years...he's not going anywhere else to chase a Cup, despite the crying and whining from other fanbases

his legacy is winning with the team that drafted him

 

[authentic]

Actually now I’m starting to wonder if McDavid would really score more with Makar and company.

 

[slapKing]

McD is number 1, but Mack is number 2

 

[benfranklin]

Actually now I’m starting to wonder if McDavid would really score more with Makar and company.

1000000% would.

Rantanen => Draisaitl
Makar >>>>> Bouchard
Toews >>>>> Ekholm
Girard >>>>> Nurse
Nichushkin >> RNH
Mittlestadt >> Hyman
Drouin >>>> Skinner
Lehkonen >> Arvidsson
Goalies suck for both teams

Without McDavid, that is a lottery team.

 

[PainForShane]

1000000% would.

Rantanen => Draisaitl
Makar >>>>> Bouchard
Toews >>>>> Ekholm
Girard >>>>> Nurse
Nichushkin >> RNH
Mittlestadt >> Hyman
Drouin >>>> Skinner
Lehkonen >> Arvidsson
Goalies suck for both teams

Without McDavid, that is a lottery team.

Not really. Draisatl's won the Hart and scores 50 goals / 100+ points regularly. Maybe it'd be 40 / 90 without McDavid but he'd still be dominant, or maybe stays the same because additional opportunity. And if the team had another 12m or so in cap space they'd finally be able to get a halfway decent goalie and maybe a legitimate first pair defender to play with Ekholm.

I'm not saying they're better off without McD (not even close), but without him they're still clearly a playoff team, maybe even winning a round or two depending who they play against

Actually now I’m starting to wonder if McDavid would really score more with Makar and company.

If you take away Draisaitl the answer is no

 

[benfranklin]

Not really. Draisatl's won the Hart and scores 50 goals / 100+ points regularly. Maybe it'd be 40 / 90 without McDavid but he'd still be dominant, or maybe stays the same because additional opportunity. And if the team had another 12m or so in cap space they'd finally be able to get a halfway decent goalie and maybe a legitimate first pair defender to play with Ekholm.

I'm not saying they're better off without McD (not even close), but without him they're still clearly a playoff team, maybe even winning a round or two depending who they play against




If you take away Draisaitl the answer is no

Agree to disagree. Draisaitl consistently has had McDavid on the ice with him for upper 40's percentage wise.

His Hart year, was the goofy Covid shortened year and McDavid missed 7 games. Both of them were 2 of the 3 players in the top 30 to be minus on the season and the Oilers missed the playoffs. That has been the Oilers thing since McDavid came into the league for too many seasons. A zillion points, piss poor defensively, and missing the playoffs more often than they should.

 

[PainForShane]

Agree to disagree. Draisaitl consistently has had McDavid on the ice with him for upper 40's percentage wise.

His Hart year, was the goofy Covid shortened year and McDavid missed 7 games. Both of them were 2 of the 3 players in the top 30 to be minus on the season and the Oilers missed the playoffs. That has been the Oilers thing since McDavid came into the league for too many seasons. A zillion points, piss poor defensively, and missing the playoffs more often than they should.

And the other 60% of the time or whatever it is (haven't looked it up), Drai is still one of the top 5 or so centers in the league, and the rest of the team is much better than a lottery team (which is your initial claim that I pushed back on).

If you've seen any of the lottery teams this year (Chi, MTL, SJ etc), you'd realize how legitimately bad they are. Remove McD from the Oilers and they are still MUCH better than the likes of San Jose. You can keep arguing this if you want, but what you're saying is not correct

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

1000000% would.

Rantanen => Draisaitl
Makar >>>>> Bouchard
Toews >>>>> Ekholm
Girard >>>>> Nurse
Nichushkin >> RNH
Mittlestadt >> Hyman
Drouin >>>> Skinner
Lehkonen >> Arvidsson
Goalies suck for both teams

Without McDavid, that is a lottery team.

Geeze, with ratings like this, how on Earth have the Avs only won 1 playoff series the past couple years!
I do love how you admit McDavid is the Most Valuable player in the league though

 

[Three On Zero]

And the other 60% of the time or whatever it is (haven't looked it up), Drai is still one of the top 5 or so centers in the league, and the rest of the team is much better than a lottery team (which is your initial claim that I pushed back on).

If you've seen any of the lottery teams this year (Chi, MTL, SJ etc), you'd realize how legitimately bad they are. Remove McD from the Oilers and they are still MUCH better than the likes of San Jose. You can keep arguing this if you want, but what you're saying is not correct

They wouldn’t be a lottery team but Draisaitl is an unproven #1, they likely fall to the bubble/middling playoff team area. Now without McDavid you also have a lot of cap to fill, so who knows how the additions would play out.

 

[PainForShane]

They wouldn’t be a lottery team but Draisaitl is an unproven #1, they likely fall to the bubble/middling playoff team area. Now without McDavid you also have a lot of cap to fill, so who knows how the additions would play out.

Yeah I don't disagree, my guess is without McD they're somewhere around the Wild Card and anywhere around that level plus or minus 10-15 points is a reasonable take, especially depending how wisely (or not wisely) you think the cap space might be used. I was just saying without McD they're not a lottery team, not even close.

Last summer they beat Vancouver in game 7 without McDavid getting on the scoresheet, and they ended their season a single goal away from sending game 7 into overtime against the Stanley Cup Champions (even after McDavid was a total non-factor for the first two and half periods).

Anyway I think Edmonton has shown they're at least a decent team even without McD, they don't completely collapse on the few nights he doesn't produce (they also won game 6 in the Finals). Of course they're clearly better with him, but yeah -- 100% agree that bubble team (rather than lottery team) seems about right if he were to leave or be injured or something

 

[Three On Zero]

Yeah I don't disagree, my guess is without McD they're somewhere around the Wild Card and anywhere around that level plus or minus 10-15 points is a reasonable take, especially depending how wisely (or not wisely) you think the cap space might be used. I was just saying without McD they're not a lottery team, not even close.

Last summer they beat Vancouver in game 7 without McDavid getting on the scoresheet, and they ended their season a single goal away from sending game 7 into overtime against the Stanley Cup Champions (even after McDavid was a total non-factor for the first two and half periods).

Anyway I think Edmonton has shown they're at least a decent team even without McD, they don't completely collapse on the few nights he doesn't produce (they also won game 6 in the Finals). Of course they're clearly better with him, but yeah -- 100% agree that bubble team (rather than lottery team) seems about right if he were to leave or be injured or something

The thing with McDavid is he is never a non factor, the sheer effort that goes into neutralizing him is a task in its own. Him just being on the ice is a huge factor.

 

[elmaco]

1000000% would.

Rantanen => Draisaitl
Makar >>>>> Bouchard
Toews >>>>> Ekholm
Girard >>>>> Nurse
Nichushkin >> RNH
Mittlestadt >> Hyman
Drouin >>>> Skinner
Lehkonen >> Arvidsson
Goalies suck for both teams

Without McDavid, that is a lottery team.

Bad take.

 

[Kerberos]

Bad take.

That's an understatement. But entirely unsurprising.

 

[PaulD]

As of right now. I would take Mackinnon over McDavid if I was starting a team and I could only have one of them.

 

[PainForShane]

The thing with McDavid is he is never a non factor, the sheer effort that goes into neutralizing him is a task in its own. Him just being on the ice is a huge factor.

I don't know... I mean he WAS a non-factor for the first two and a half periods of game 7 of this year's SCF. Florida made a coaching adjustment and stuck a guy to him just as he was entering the offensive blue line, so he wasn't able to generate any speed while entering the offensive zone. At some point he made the adjustment and started accelerating in the neutral zone, but there was only about 10 minutes left in the third period when he started getting going.

If your point was, "well he required a coaching adjustment from Florida so by definition that means he was a huge factor," of course you're right but Florida was able to shut him down for the most part whenever the series was close, which I think is more important.

MacKinnon's a different beast altogether. Even if you stop him scoring, he'll still contribute physically and have an impact on the game. Obviously both these players are paid to put up points (and McD is better at that) but I think I'd rather have MacK on my team a playoff must win if I'm being honest, he's right there offensively and has other relevant ways to impact the game. Can't go wrong with either player though

 

[Mr Kot]

Geeze, with ratings like this, how on Earth have the Avs only won 1 playoff series the past couple years!
I do love how you admit McDavid is the Most Valuable player in the league though

If you put enough arrows between each player, it makes it more believable.

 

[1specter]

Dude is incredible and a true heart and soul leader who puts it all out there. One of my favourite players in the league, the average hockey fan doesn't realize how good he is.

Oh look a virgin Bruins fan laughed at this

 

[Mr Kot]

As of right now. I would take Mackinnon over McDavid if I was starting a team and I could only have one of them.

Look, while I believe other players can do well enough to keep pace with him, he literally can drag a team like the Oilers to a cup final. Very few players in the history of the NHL can do that. It's why he is considered top 10 already, and possibly fighting for top 5 at this point despite his lack of cup. Hell, I used to swear by the cup argument myself until seeing him play. It's just impossible to ignore his talent.

MacKinnon can match his pace, sure, just like other players like Kucherov or Drai can at times. But that's the thing; it's only sometimes and not consistent enough to say any of them are better. The fact that McDavid was a threat from day one makes him ahead of them easily. It would be absolutely silly to take anyone other than him with a clean slate.