Confirmed with Link: Nathan Horton to Toronto for David Clarkson

[KallioWeHardlyKnewYe]

Go back and look at my comments concurrent with the acquisition. This is not about hindsight. The only way the deal made sense to me is if we insured Horton to the extent possible. Again, Horton's situation was comparable to Brian Berard's in this respect and I remembered well how Doug insured Berard and ultimately collected when he had a problem not related to his previously existing eye. Yes, you still take a risk on the shoulder at that time if you insure Horton. But the guy had other bangs and scrapes at that point from his style of play. If you can't or don't want to insure him, you simply cannot make the deal we made with him as a small market team. Its not worth the risk. Either you get the insurance to preserve the right to have it in future years or you don't sign Horton, its that simple.

And, why take that risk given where we thought we were at that point? The team was in the midst of a rebuild. The last thing to do when you are allegedly playing the long game is to sign a huge contract with this much risk attached to it especially if you don't think you are a cap team but are on a tight budget.

The ultimate irony is that Clarkson was signed around the same time and I felt like we dodged a bullet in getting a presumably insured Horton over Clarkson and his contract. We managed to start with an uninsured Horton and get the overpaid Clarkson.

Right now we have what amounts to a press release from the Jackets about what happened. It would be nice if someone would bother to ask the most important question--who made the ultimate decision not to insure Horton?

Absolutely. 100% agree.

 

[CapnCornelius]

There's nothing here on HF that I can find, Cap. No post in the thread about him signing, nothing that entire summer about the Horton signing that I can find. I mean, there's a thread from November 2013 in which you seem to laud Jarmo for the signing with no mention of insurance or his injury history.

In other history, the 'Horton signs in Cbus' thread includes a lot or virtual high-fives over this being a big-time move and an example of how the Jackets, under our new leadership, are no longer a laughingstock. What concern there was involved Horton's concussion history and pending shoulder surgery. Not one mention by anyone of his back, or of the need to insure this big-dollar contract.

Knew I would find it if I looked. Wasn't here, it was on Twitter, but here were my ramblings at the time. July 3, 2013:

"Don't get me wrong, Horton is a good player, but do we want him and Gaborik (both injury prone) as the backbone of our offense?"

"And if there is a weakness of Jarmo and JD, historically, it is underestimation of injury history. Paul Kariya. Andy MacDonald. Etc."

"...on the other hand, Bruins have shown injury issue is low risk, high reward. If a guy is LTIR he doesn't count against cap and..."

"Insurance also pays part of salary."

So, again, I was assuming from the Berard situation that we'd get insurance. I figured that was a given. The point on JD and Jarmo is really coming back to haunt though. And that's my concern going forward. If they are not factoring in potential for Jenner/Murray to be injury prone, there are some serious risks of this team taking a turn for the worse as hard as that may be to believe.

 

[BluejacketNut]

It is not Columbus fault they are in this situation. It was total bad luck and Horton is worth the contract, if he was a healthy player. Columbus took a chance and it didn't pay off.

This is most definitely a win for Columbus.

As for Toronto, full disclosure I am a huge TO fan, we should be ashamed and disgusted about this trade. I am so very happy, and obviously it was 100% the right move, but signing Clarkson to that type of contract (one where you cant buy him out and then top it off with a no-movement clause) should have never happened and Leafs management should have stepped in.

I'm going to always link to my thread because I want you Columbus fans to realize this is an amazing trade for you guys!
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1843401

No its not, its far from it. This whole mess shouldnt have even happened if our FO had half a brain to insure an often injured player with the size of that contract. Horton was far from healthy, and EVERYONE knew it, the only reason you ever do a contract like that is if its insured. Colossal f up by out FO, whoever made the decision

 

[niflheim]

One of two people needs fired- either the doctor that didn't find the degenerative back issue or the executive that didn't think it was worth insuring.

I'm not a doctor, but I would guess a degenerative back is findable on an MRI. Unless he hurt it while rehabbing his shoulder or groin.

Our physician can't predict Boone's rehabilation period but You believe he can diagnose degenerative back disease ? It is ortopedic surgeon/experienced physiatrist area. Our phsyician is simply kind non young rural GP But I'm sure that he will be fired before FO clowns. Was it so difficult to consult our partner ( all American insurance company Nationwide), I guess it is not physician job ?

 

[AustonMitchWilly]

Man I hope Clarkson performs for you guys. He is such a great person, really genuine and does some incredible charity work.

 

[Stretch Factor]

I'm not that upset about the trade. Like others, I'm hoping we made a bad situation slightly better. I'm not going to pound on the FO for making the deal.

I'm very concerned about the under lining medical and/or management issues because those problems don't just affect one contract, they affect everything.

I'm guessing nearly everyone on this board assumed the FO did their due diligence on Horton before they signed him and then had him properly insured. I never gave insurance a thought. I just assumed everyone is insured. I also assumed they had a full medical history on Horton just like they have a full medical history on everyone. I thought this was standard operating procedure.

I assumed all those things because I am a fan and don't work in the FO. How in the world could we not know about the back? If we knew about it, why didn't we insure it? Why are we suffering so many lost games to injuries? Why are we having so many groin issues? What else are we missing on the medical side? Who else isn't insured?

 

[Mayor Bee]

Suddenly, your posts make more sense. You're a huge Jarmo homer.

There's no "full story" here. They made a horrible mistake that most teams don't make. This is right up there in terms of Stan Bowman not mailing out those qualifying offers in terms of bizarre incompetence.

It was Dale Tallon, not Stan Bowman.

The point still stands.

 

[BluejacketNut]

I am starting to feel bad about trashing Clarkson. Everything i've read is that he's a great guy, its the terms of the contract and the non insuring of Horton that is the root of the problem. I bet Clarkson is a great 3rd liner at $1.5-2m, but not at his current contract. This organization cant get out of its own way with blundering decisions

 

[niflheim]

I just assumed everyone is insured.

!
I was sure that everyone, everything and even Horton's insurance agreement itself was insured But our FFO, it's unbelievable

 

[EspenK]

Suddenly, your posts make more sense. You're a huge Jarmo homer.

There's no "full story" here. They made a horrible mistake that most teams don't make. This is right up there in terms of Stan Bowman not mailing out those qualifying offers in terms of bizarre incompetence.

How do you know this? From bits and pieces I have read it seems that they couldn't insure the shoulder and then couldn't insure because of the back. The one thing that is confusing in my mind is if they could have insured the non-shoulder Horton and didn't and that would have been automatically renewable then they screwed up. But I'm guessing these policies are season by season.

if you're saying signing him in the first place was a mistake knowing they couldn't insure the contract then I can see that wasn't the brightest thing to do.

I'd really like a whole explanation from Jarmo as to what happened and why. Don't know if we'll ever get that though.

P.S. Not a Jarmo homer. So far mixed grades for him from me.

 

[Tony Quinn]

My brother in-law is the director of player personnel for a NFL team and I was talking to him about the Horton situation. I'm assuming, medical-wise, that teams operate similarly when acquiring players. He said they know every ounce of a player's medical history before signing or trading for said player. Now, a guy can slide through the cracks, and maybe that's the case with Horton, but these teams are very thorough and likely know if the player sneezed at breakfast the week prior to being acquired.

 

[KJ Dangler]

Suddenly, your posts make more sense. You're a huge Jarmo homer.

There's no "full story" here. They made a horrible mistake that most teams don't make. This is right up there in terms of Stan Bowman not mailing out those qualifying offers in terms of bizarre incompetence.

Not a homer of anything. Appreciate the shot though. This forum is filled with absolute judgements, when we know very little facts. That was clarified yesterday. I choose to look at big picture, some may want to focus on negative, thats there perrogative.

 

[Samkow]

I am starting to feel bad about trashing Clarkson. Everything i've read is that he's a great guy, its the terms of the contract and the non insuring of Horton that is the root of the problem. I bet Clarkson is a great 3rd liner at $1.5-2m, but not at his current contract. This organization cant get out of its own way with blundering decisions

Setting aside the outrage over the Horton thing, this is actually an okay move. And if he totally bombs, we can buy him out closer to the end of the contract. That wasn't an option with Horton.

 

[BluejacketNut]

Setting aside the outrage over the Horton thing, this is actually an okay move. And if he totally bombs, we can buy him out closer to the end of the contract. That wasn't an option with Horton.

Its certainly a "choose you poison" situation, something i'd rather have another team deal with other than ours!

 

[Stretch Factor]

My brother in-law is the director of player personnel for a NFL team and I was talking to him about the Horton situation. I'm assuming, medical-wise, that teams operate similarly when acquiring players. He said they know every ounce of a player's medical history before signing or trading for said player. Now, a guy can slide through the cracks, and maybe that's the case with Horton, but these teams are very thorough and likely know if the player sneezed at breakfast the week prior to being acquired.

This is what I assumed too.

Did Horton have a full MRI before we signed him? If not, why not?
Did we know about the back? If not, why not?
When did we find out about the back? I'm guessing this back issue didn't just become an issue while jogging in the off season and now it's debilitating- to the point that he's a walking zombie.


What did we know and when did we know it?

 

[EspenK]

Setting aside the outrage over the Horton thing, this is actually an okay move. And if he totally bombs, we can buy him out closer to the end of the contract. That wasn't an option with Horton.

Somewhere I read from a Leafs fan that Clarkson's contract had a huge signing bonus involved and as such made a buyout more difficult. I'll see if I can find that.

 

[Johansen2Foligno]

Wasn't it pointed out that his back was always bothering him and that he changed his skating stride to compensate for the pain? I think it was stated this could have caused the back to deteriorate fast than normal. Not sure if something like that would jump out on MRI.

It might have started out minor and got progressively worse. I am sure most hockey players have minor back pain at some point.

 

[Samkow]

Somewhere I read from a Leafs fan that Clarkson's contract had a huge signing bonus involved and as such made a buyout more difficult. I'll see if I can find that.

You're right, but I think for Columbus, it's about the actual money as much as the cap hit.

 

[EspenK]

You're right, but I think for Columbus, it's about the actual money as much as the cap hit.

True that. FWIW here's the guy's post about the buyout:

Leafs fan here in peace. The thing with Clarkson, is the whole buyout problem.

Most players earn most of their salary through regular season play. If you buy them out, then a portion of what they'd normally make during a season, counts against the cap for seasons to come. The exact number/percentage eludes me, but let's say theoretically some random guy was making $5.25mil for another 5 seasons. You'd end up with something like $2.2mil per season against the cap for 3-5 years (again, I'm not totally certain what the percentages and years are, it's just a salary and term I'm pulling out of nowhere).

The problem with Clarkson's contract, is that most of his money is made from the annual signing bonus that he gets July 1st every year. I believe it's $4mil. The signing bonus does not diminish as a cap hit if you choose to buy a player out.

If the Leafs elected to buy him out, they would still be on the hook for over $5mil per season for the rest of his contract's duration. Even if you put a rookie with the minimum ELC in the lineup, the team's cap would be even worse.

THAT was the issue with Clarkson's contract. The NMC and NTC was bad enough, but how the deal was structured in terms of signing bonus was the worst thing about his deal. It made buying him out virtually impossible.

I'm honestly amazed this trade happened. But after reading about Horton's health woes, and lack of insurance on his contract, I can understand why your team agreed to the trade.

Really sucks what happened to Horton. I always hated watching him play on Boston (because he was damn good). Hopefully Clarkson bounces back and proves some kind of worth to you guys.

 

[Fro]

Hope_Smoke ‏@Hope_Smoke 34s35 seconds ago
I just don't understand why CBJ wanted Clarkson over Mike Richards. Did LA say no?

then this

Hope_Smoke retweeted
Craig Custance ‏@CraigCustance 2m2 minutes ago
@Hope_Smoke They never talked to LA about it.

 

[Kev22]

Go back and look at my comments concurrent with the acquisition. This is not about hindsight. The only way the deal made sense to me is if we insured Horton to the extent possible. Again, Horton's situation was comparable to Brian Berard's in this respect and I remembered well how Doug insured Berard and ultimately collected when he had a problem not related to his previously existing eye. Yes, you still take a risk on the shoulder at that time if you insure Horton. But the guy had other bangs and scrapes at that point from his style of play. If you can't or don't want to insure him, you simply cannot make the deal we made with him as a small market team. Its not worth the risk. Either you get the insurance to preserve the right to have it in future years or you don't sign Horton, its that simple.

And, why take that risk given where we thought we were at that point? The team was in the midst of a rebuild. The last thing to do when you are allegedly playing the long game is to sign a huge contract with this much risk attached to it especially if you don't think you are a cap team but are on a tight budget.

The ultimate irony is that Clarkson was signed around the same time and I felt like we dodged a bullet in getting a presumably insured Horton over Clarkson and his contract. We managed to start with an uninsured Horton and get the overpaid Clarkson.

Right now we have what amounts to a press release from the Jackets about what happened. It would be nice if someone would bother to ask the most important question--who made the ultimate decision not to insure Horton?

This is going to sound silly, but Horton's body made the decision not to insure Horton. Insurance is renewable from year to year, correct? They passed on year one, I get that, it was wasted money to pay the premium because he wasn't going to play for more than half a year. I'll give a pass on that. Where my questions are is the second year, I'm guessing that policies are based on the "league year" and policies can only be renewed/started at certain times and Horton's body fell apart before they could insure. This decision does make the front office as a whole look foolish, probably even team ownership, but I think that they came up with at least a workable solution.

I'll reserve judgement on the trade until I see what Clarkson brings. He seems to be excited to be here and likes our style of play, so let's see what happens.

 

[Inquiring Minds]

Help me understand this:

Columbus is paying salary for a Horton, who will never play again, hence they'd prefer to pay someone who will play, even if its Clarkson?!

Is that what took place?

Yes.

And if we are lucky, Clarkson has insurance.

This is Columbus, after all. It is only a matter of time before that Insurance will kick in...
(Perhaps we can hire the Russian mafia to make sure it kicks in.)

 

[KallioWeHardlyKnewYe]

Hope_Smoke ‏@Hope_Smoke 34s35 seconds ago
I just don't understand why CBJ wanted Clarkson over Mike Richards. Did LA say no?

then this

Hope_Smoke retweeted
Craig Custance ‏@CraigCustance 2m2 minutes ago
@Hope_Smoke They never talked to LA about it.

This is an easy one. CBJ said no.
Horton would've recovered and won a Cup.

 

[Fro]

This is an easy one. CBJ said no.
Horton would've recovered and won a Cup.

hahahhaahaha sulk

 

[MAHJ71]

Hope_Smoke ‏@Hope_Smoke 34s35 seconds ago
I just don't understand why CBJ wanted Clarkson over Mike Richards. Did LA say no?

then this

Hope_Smoke retweeted
Craig Custance ‏@CraigCustance 2m2 minutes ago
@Hope_Smoke They never talked to LA about it.

Interesting... evidently didn't see anymore potential in Richards or possbily thought he wouldn't be available??