Nashville Predators talk - The Offseason

[Porter Stoutheart]

If Crosby leaves Pittsburgh they may have a riot.

Even better!

 

[ShagDaddy]

Yeah well we kept thinking that was what they would do last season too. Ended up they just stacked all of the Vets on the top line and rolled with it. Brunette has already shown he doesn't give a dang about developing the younger guys, he's gonna do whatever gets him wins.

That’s his job.

 

[Armourboy]

That’s his job.

There is way more to coaching than just wins and losses, if there wasn't you wouldn't be seeing playoff level teams firing coaches. His job is to win games when the time comes, but his job is to put his players in a position to succeed.

We've been over this several times, but last year was putting the cart before the horse. Instead of being smart, taking the good will and expectations that the fans had and using it to his advantage in the following years, he stacked the deck, put all of his Vets on one line, got his AHL level talent sent down all to win and get bumped in the first round. Great, same thing that previous coaches were doing.

Now on to the second year and Trotz has tried to stack the deck, which is fine, but now you have young guys you should have gotten answers too last season sitting around with little to no opportunity again. These guys are going to be moving on from the organization real soon and you still don't have a clue what they are. You take last season and do that and maybe you move several of them out because you don't think they have it, which opens things up for players who might have something. Instead you now have an even deeper bottle neck and don't have a clue about any of these players really.

I mean he got fired in Florida after winning games, obviously there is more to it.

 

[ShagDaddy]

There is way more to coaching than just wins and losses, if there wasn't you wouldn't be seeing playoff level teams firing coaches. His job is to win games when the time comes, but his job is to put his players in a position to succeed.

We've been over this several times, but last year was putting the cart before the horse. Instead of being smart, taking the good will and expectations that the fans had and using it to his advantage in the following years, he stacked the deck, put all of his Vets on one line, got his AHL level talent sent down all to win and get bumped in the first round. Great, same thing that previous coaches were doing.

Now on to the second year and Trotz has tried to stack the deck, which is fine, but now you have young guys you should have gotten answers too last season sitting around with little to no opportunity again. These guys are going to be moving on from the organization real soon and you still don't have a clue what they are. You take last season and do that and maybe you move several of them out because you don't think they have it, which opens things up for players who might have something. Instead you now have an even deeper bottle neck and don't have a clue about any of these players really.

I mean he got fired in Florida after winning games, obviously there is more to it.

Yes teams fire coaches that have winning seasons. Coaches that win have a lot more job security than coaches that lose. Why would anyone be satisfied with a coach that’s ok with losing. The AHL is the development league, the NHL is the we are here to win league. The thought process that developing young players in the top league in the world is just an irrational idea in my opinion.

 

[Viqsi]

Yes teams fire coaches that have winning seasons. Coaches that win have a lot more job security than coaches that lose. Why would anyone be satisfied with a coach that’s ok with losing. The AHL is the development league, the NHL is the we are here to win league. The thought process that developing young players in the top league in the world is just an irrational idea in my opinion.

I think it's more fair to say that there are different phases of development that occur in these different leagues.

 

[ShagDaddy]

I think it's more fair to say that there are different phases of development that occur in these different leagues.

I agree. The AHL is the league to develop players to the point that they are ready for a regular NHL roster spot. The NHL is where they develop from being a rookie that’s ready for a regular NHL roster spot into a solid NHL contributor. Every player develops their game every year they play. An NHL coach should be helping players fine tune their development, not develop them from a junior/college player into an NHL player.

 

[glenngineer]

In a perfect world, the AHL coach should win Calder Cups while preparing the kids to play in the NHL. Our AHL coaches have had a spattering of success over the years. In reality, they've done a good job of pushing thru a bunch of prospects on D and a small sample of forwards who have had an NHL career. We have yet to develop a forward to the level of Forsberg. Is that on the coaches, the system, the drafting a little bit of everything?

Some say you need high picks to get the quality of players that are like Forsberg. While there is some truth to that, there have been enough players who've made it at a high level who weren't top 10ish picks. Is it harder to find those types, probably so but it does happen.

Beyond that though, do we have scouts that have an eye for forward talent? Does the entire management team not always see eye to eye that enables us to draft and develop these kids to a prominent level?

Having been a fan of this organization for 20+ years it's hard to know where the disconnect has been. Poile had his moments of going out on a limb all the while drafting safely for the most part. Trotz has mentioned the Predators way. Are other organizations that hemmed in to the belief of having to have to play a certain way to make the roster? If so, are we short changing young talents who have skill but may not play the way the coaches want them to all the time. Should there be more give and take here? Accentuate their talents while giving them some rope to learn and hone their craft.

I'll use Tomasino as an example. Why draft a player who's a good skater and has some dynamic talent only to say, hey, you need to do xyz to get in the lineup but guys like McC and Jank doing xyz and don't have the upside in offensive talent find themselves with a roster spot. Both win you games and in different ways. Both can also lose you games too.

There's something missing here and I'm hoping Trotz and Brunette can figure it out sooner than later. I'm not so concerned that young guys won't find spots in the lineup. I have a funny feeling 2 or 3 more will find themselves on the big roster this year. Who they'll be is anyone's guess.

 

[triggrman]

I've switched a bit on Tomasino. Every player no matter what position has to at least try to battle on the boards. Hell Novak rarely wins board battles but it's not through lack of effort. He doesn't give up on plays. Tomasino has, and does it often. Effort isn't a skill it's a desire.

 

[Armourboy]

I've switched a bit on Tomasino. Every player no matter what position has to at least try to battle on the boards. Hell Novak rarely wins board battles but it's not through lack of effort. He doesn't give up on plays. Tomasino has, and does it often. Effort isn't a skill it's a desire.

If that is the case then what are we doing? Why are we wasting time on a guy that won't put out the effort? I mean we should have had that figured out going into the offseason, and if that was the case then why not get what you can for him and move on?

I just don't get it from a team stand point. If you sign and waive him someone is going to take a stab at him so either sign him and play or trade him, don't lose him for nothing because he came to camp and you decided you still don't like him.

 

[Armourboy]

Yes teams fire coaches that have winning seasons. Coaches that win have a lot more job security than coaches that lose. Why would anyone be satisfied with a coach that’s ok with losing. The AHL is the development league, the NHL is the we are here to win league. The thought process that developing young players in the top league in the world is just an irrational idea in my opinion.

Look through my post again, did I mention anywhere that Brunette needed to develop young players? No I said his job is to put them in a position to succeed and by his own admittance he didn't do that.

He stuffed the deck, didn't give these young guys anyone to play with but other young guys and then wonders why they didn't do anything?

Yes coaches are paid to win, but everyone from the fans, to the coaches, to the players knew going into last season the best we could hope for was exactly what we got, a first round exit. They had a year of good will with no expectations. It was Brunette's first year, no reason to be worrying about your job at that point.

TBH I don't even put it on Brunette all that much, I think Trotz tried so hard to stay hands off that he didn't use what amounts to a free season of good will from the fans and media to get some answers. It already cost him Afanasyev, and I think its likely Tomasino ends up grabbed off the waiver wire. Luckily he got something for the first, I'm a little worried he is going to pull a Poile/Tolvanen thing with Tomasino.

 

[Predsanddead24]

Look through my post again, did I mention anywhere that Brunette needed to develop young players? No I said his job is to put them in a position to succeed and by his own admittance he didn't do that.

He stuffed the deck, didn't give these young guys anyone to play with but other young guys and then wonders why they didn't do anything?

Yes coaches are paid to win, but everyone from the fans, to the coaches, to the players knew going into last season the best we could hope for was exactly what we got, a first round exit. They had a year of good will with no expectations. It was Brunette's first year, no reason to be worrying about your job at that point.

TBH I don't even put it on Brunette all that much, I think Trotz tried so hard to stay hands off that he didn't use what amounts to a free season of good will from the fans and media to get some answers. It already cost him Afanasyev, and I think its likely Tomasino ends up grabbed off the waiver wire. Luckily he got something for the first, I'm a little worried he is going to pull a Poile/Tolvanen thing with Tomasino.

Coaches are paid to win in the playoffs. If that comes with regular season successes too (President's trophy, division titles, etc.) that's a bonus, but that is not what keeps coaches employed. It's why the 16-17 team is thought of more highly than the 17-18 team that won the President's trophy. It's why Lavi was fired while still in the playoff hunt after winning the division the year previously.

Which is why I agree with you that last year was a huge missed opportunity, because we had no chance of winning a Cup but also didn't maximize things that would help us win in the future. I think we would be sitting in a better situation if we had focused more on giving young guys opportunity than trying to squeeze a few more points out of a forgettable season. I would have liked to have seen what Evangelista and Novak looked like with another skilled winger. I'd like to have seen how Tomasino performed with someone other than 4th liners. I'd have like to see more than a one game sample of how Parsinnen looked after spending some time in Milwaukee to reset. I'd have liked to see how Stastney performed over a full season in the NHL. I would have liked to see L'Heruex or Svechkov get a taste of the NHL and see how they look. Instead we gave opportunities to Sherwood, Barrie, Zucker, Beauvillier, etc. who clearly had no future with the team.

This season we have a team that should be capable of being a contender so I think its perfectly fair to put less emphasis on getting young guys chances. However, I think if we'd taken a more forward looking approach we might have better answers to some of the holes in this team.

 

[Armourboy]

Coaches are paid to win in the playoffs. If that comes with regular season successes too (President's trophy, division titles, etc.) that's a bonus, but that is not what keeps coaches employed. It's why the 16-17 team is thought of more highly than the 17-18 team that won the President's trophy. It's why Lavi was fired while still in the playoff hunt after winning the division the year previously.

Which is why I agree with you that last year was a huge missed opportunity, because we had no chance of winning a Cup but also didn't maximize things that would help us win in the future. I think we would be sitting in a better situation if we had focused more on giving young guys opportunity than trying to squeeze a few more points out of a forgettable season. I would have liked to have seen what Evangelista and Novak looked like with another skilled winger. I'd like to have seen how Tomasino performed with someone other than 4th liners. I'd have like to see more than a one game sample of how Parsinnen looked after spending some time in Milwaukee to reset. I'd have liked to see how Stastney performed over a full season in the NHL. I would have liked to see L'Heruex or Svechkov get a taste of the NHL and see how they look. Instead we gave opportunities to Sherwood, Barrie, Zucker, Beauvillier, etc. who clearly had no future with the team.

This season we have a team that should be capable of being a contender so I think its perfectly fair to put less emphasis on getting young guys chances. However, I think if we'd taken a more forward looking approach we might have better answers to some of the holes in this team.

Yep I have no issues with this season being less about the young guys. There is clear cut moves to say we expect to make a playoff run. Fans are going to have expectations for this season.

Last season there was no expectations. First year as a GM, first year as a coach, fans were basically giving you a year to figure things out with zero pressure. Now you are going to be trying to get those answers while you have expectations, and not just expectations of making the playoffs but also doing something in the playoffs.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

I suppose one ?benefit? of having somewhat stockpiled picks/prospects recently is that it allows us to be a little more "hasty" in making decisions on some of the younger players? That is, if there is a guy who our hockey ops department is a little "iffy" on - like say Afanaseyev or Tomasino (or even in a sort of different way Askarov), then there isn't really as much pressure to cling on to them or go out of our way to try to accommodate them, because lined up right behind them are a whole host of other prospects incoming. We don't need to bend over backward handing out opportunity to these "iffy" guys, because having them pan out or bust isn't going to be critical to our success in either direction. There are plenty of others coming along who are hungry to take those jobs.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

I suppose one ?benefit? of having somewhat stockpiled picks/prospects recently is that it allows us to be a little more "hasty" in making decisions on some of the younger players? That is, if there is a guy who our hockey ops department is a little "iffy" on - like say Afanaseyev or Tomasino (or even in a sort of different way Askarov), then there isn't really as much pressure to cling on to them or go out of our way to try to accommodate them, because lined up right behind them are a whole host of other prospects incoming. We don't need to bend over backward handing out opportunity to these "iffy" guys, because having them pan out or bust isn't going to be critical to our success in either direction. There are plenty of others coming along who are hungry to take those jobs.

To me, it's the sweet spot in all of sports. Having a ton of picks, a great farm, and the window open for a championship is a perfect storm. For comparison, I'm a big baseball fan and the team I was most jealous of for a long time was the Cardinals. For about a decade or so starting about 15-20 years ago, the Cards had a top-5 farm while winning championships. That's where you want to be.

 

[ShagDaddy]

I wouldn’t say it cost him Afanasyev. Afanasyev wasn’t going to pan out as a top 6 forward regardless of the team he was playing for. Trotz got a potential player for him so no big deal.

Tolvanen is a third line/PP guy that can be replaced through free agency very easily so no big deal there either. It would have been nice to get something for him but it wasn’t going to be much.

Tomasino, well…… he’s not going to get much of a return if any either.

 

[Kat Predator]

Tolvanen would be an upgrade to any of Smith, Trenin, or Jeannot on a 3rd line from the perspective of bringing more offensive ability to the hypothetical 3rd line. He'd have been a keeper, if the coach wants to play a "scoring middle 6" sort of lineup.

That wasn't what we were about though. We wanted a bottom 6 of grinders, hard to play against guys, and offensive production an afterthought.

As has been argued here plenty, for a team without absolute top shelf 1st line talent that can manufacture plenty of scoring on its own, limiting the depth scoring to inflate the physical play didn't elevate the club to being able to make deep runs in the playoffs. It reversed what Lavi had been doing, which apparently was the real point. That focus on strong defense and studly goaltending did seem to run in Poile's veins.

 

[Armourboy]

I wouldn’t say it cost him Afanasyev. Afanasyev wasn’t going to pan out as a top 6 forward regardless of the team he was playing for. Trotz got a potential player for him so no big deal.

Tolvanen is a third line/PP guy that can be replaced through free agency very easily so no big deal there either. It would have been nice to get something for him but it wasn’t going to be much.

Tomasino, well…… he’s not going to get much of a return if any either.

You may not have gotten or will get much for any of them, but you may have been able to package them with someone else to get something closer to what you want. A guy like Tomasino may not get much of a return, but I see several teams out there that would be willing to take a stab at a young cheap guy to fill the roster if he ends up on waivers.

Teams like Edmonton, Toronto, Pittsburgh, etc don't exactly have much in the system and they need cheap younger players. Even a team like LA who seemingly kind of missed for the most part on their rebuild may take a stab at him.

You might not get more than a 7th out of him, but that's more than nothing if you toss him on waivers.

 

[Ben Grimm]

How do I feel about the 2025 SC? Abracadabra, Preds gonna reach out and grab ya.