Nashville Predators talk - The Offseason

[Predsanddead24]

I don’t know I prefer to stack all of our vets we brought in to teach the kids to win onto one line and then wonder why we have no scoring depth.

 

[herzausstein]

I don’t know I prefer to stack all of our vets we brought in to teach the kids to win onto one line and then wonder why we have no scoring depth.

Yeah that still bothers me.

Dallas has 2 really young, inexperienced forwards in Johnston, Stankoven. Judging by their lineup, they play on the same line but they have a quality veteran in J. Benn helping to guide them. The other young players like Robertson, Harley, Lundkvist are treated the same way. The defensemen are paired with an older vet.

Novak Evangelista - had 102 games combined going into the season. Throw in Tomasino to bring that entire line up to 209 NHL games. Jankowski may not be as good as he was drafted but his 300+ games of NHL experience seems to of helped settle that line out. Just like Tomasino seemed to benefit from playing with some older vets in McCarron and Smith even if they aren't ideal linemates.

 

[herzausstein]

Predators Hire Mitch Korn as Director of Goaltending | Nashville Predators

Franchise's First-Ever Goaltending Coach, 2018 Stanley Cup Champion with Trotz Returns to Nashville in New Role

www.nhl.com

Well that is a good start to the offseason

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Predators Hire Mitch Korn as Director of Goaltending | Nashville Predators

Franchise's First-Ever Goaltending Coach, 2018 Stanley Cup Champion with Trotz Returns to Nashville in New Role

www.nhl.com

Well that is a good start to the offseason

Well that bodes well for getting Saros back on track, and for getting Askarov to improve some of the deficiencies in his game.

 

[BigFatCat999]

Predators Hire Mitch Korn as Director of Goaltending | Nashville Predators

Franchise's First-Ever Goaltending Coach, 2018 Stanley Cup Champion with Trotz Returns to Nashville in New Role

www.nhl.com

Well that is a good start to the offseason

Remember when scouting Askarov they said 'That's Pekka Rinne.' This is as much for him as Saros.

 

[Predsanddead24]

Vanderklok has history as a great goaltending coach in his own right so keeping him around and adding Korn into the mix is a huge win.

 

[Scoresberg]

This is what I hoped bringing in O'Reilly would've signaled/indicated.

Instead of younger players, we got the sherwoods and beauvilliers, which I don't think will develop into better players even if they lived with O'Reilly for 10 years..

 

[ShagDaddy]

This is what I hoped bringing in O'Reilly would've signaled/indicated.

Instead of younger players, we got the sherwoods and beauvilliers, which I don't think will develop into better players even if they lived with O'Reilly for 10 years..

you and I got completely different things from that tweet thread.

In the second tweet in the thread he points out that their younger players have to earn there roster spots usually when they’re “overripe”.

He also points out that they have a LOT of team personnel focused on player development. Maybe the Preds need more personnel focused on player development in the organization from the day they draft them through the time they’re actually NHL ready.

Wyatt Johnston didn’t just play alongside Pavelski, he lived with him. That helped him learn not only the on o e but off ice habits to be successful in the NhL. Evangelist was living with Novak, not quite the same trying to figure out off ice habits with another player that’s just learning too.

He finishes up starting how bad of an idea it is to put a player in the NHL before they are ready, which is something that people on this board seem to either not understand or just don’t care if the player is ready or not because they want the shiny new prospect on the ice at Bridgestone.

 

[Kat Predator]

Yeah that still bothers me.

Dallas has 2 really young, inexperienced forwards in Johnston, Stankoven. Judging by their lineup, they play on the same line but they have a quality veteran in J. Benn helping to guide them. The other young players like Robertson, Harley, Lundkvist are treated the same way. The defensemen are paired with an older vet.

Novak Evangelista - had 102 games combined going into the season. Throw in Tomasino to bring that entire line up to 209 NHL games. Jankowski may not be as good as he was drafted but his 300+ games of NHL experience seems to of helped settle that line out. Just like Tomasino seemed to benefit from playing with some older vets in McCarron and Smith even if they aren't ideal linemates.

Let's start with some facts.

- Stankoven played part of 1 season in the AHL (this season). He's still on his ELC, obviously.
- Johnston spent 0 games in the AHL. Still on ELC.
- Dellandrea spent 1 season in the AHL.
- Robertson spent most of 1 season in the AHL.
- Hintz spent 1.25 seasons in the AHL.
- Heiskanen spent 0 games in the AHL.
- Harley spent 1.5 seaons in the AHL.
- Lundqvist spent 3 games in the AHL.

Who knows what the definition of "overripe" is on twitter, but it clearly does not mean burning a player's ELC sending them down to the AHL.

It's a pretty impressive list of in-house development (Lundqvist is the draft exception, by the Rangers) and a lot of youth for a team in the WCF. Is it really "just lucky drafting" and "overcooking"? Or are they doing something right and better than most other teams? Or is there just something in the waterbottles?

 

[Predsanddead24]

Let's start with some facts.

- Stankoven played part of 1 season in the AHL (this season). He's still on his ELC, obviously.
- Johnston spent 0 games in the AHL. Still on ELC.
- Dellandrea spent 1 season in the AHL.
- Robertson spent most of 1 season in the AHL.
- Hintz spent 1.25 seasons in the AHL.
- Heiskanen spent 0 games in the AHL.
- Harley spent 1.5 seaons in the AHL.
- Lundqvist spent 3 games in the AHL.

Who knows what the definition of "overripe" is on twitter, but it clearly does not mean burning a player's ELC sending them down to the AHL.

It's a pretty impressive list of in-house development (Lundqvist is the draft exception, by the Rangers) and a lot of youth for a team in the WCF. Is it really "just lucky drafting" and "overcooking"? Or are they doing something right and better than most other teams? Or is there just something in the waterbottles?

Yeah it seems like Dallas is actually an argument for getting guys into the NHL quickly and giving them opportunities with top players. Not sure where the overcooking narrative comes from.

 

[herzausstein]

Let's start with some facts.

- Stankoven played part of 1 season in the AHL (this season). He's still on his ELC, obviously.
- Johnston spent 0 games in the AHL. Still on ELC.
- Dellandrea spent 1 season in the AHL.
- Robertson spent most of 1 season in the AHL.
- Hintz spent 1.25 seasons in the AHL.
- Heiskanen spent 0 games in the AHL.
- Harley spent 1.5 seaons in the AHL.
- Lundqvist spent 3 games in the AHL.

Who knows what the definition of "overripe" is on twitter, but it clearly does not mean burning a player's ELC sending them down to the AHL.

It's a pretty impressive list of in-house development (Lundqvist is the draft exception, by the Rangers) and a lot of youth for a team in the WCF. Is it really "just lucky drafting" and "overcooking"? Or are they doing something right and better than most other teams? Or is there just something in the waterbottles?

WRT overcooking

Obviously those that actually spent time in the AHL were NHL ready from the get-go.

Joking aside: Dellandrea might of benefited from more AHL time but I think it would benefit our youth more by showing some confidence in them and putting them with some better talent/experience.

 

[Softball99]

Dallas has Bowness' system already in place for almost all of them. Beginng this season it becomes apples/apples...instead of applsauce/baby food

 

[ShagDaddy]

So which young players in the Predators organization are of the same caliber as
-Stankoven - Johnston —Dellandrea - Ribertson- Hintz- Heiskanen.
- Harley.- Lundqvist
and should have bypassed the AHL or spent a year or less in the AHL.?

 

[Kat Predator]

So which young players in the Predators organization are of the same caliber as
-Stankoven - Johnston —Dellandrea - Ribertson- Hintz- Heiskanen.
- Harley.- Lundqvist
and should have bypassed the AHL or spent a year or less in the AHL.?

Hmm. Are you saying the process is identical?

We don't really have many draft picks developed in-house that are young, but let's give this a shot anyway.

- Fabbro was an in-house guy who spent 0 games in the AHL. He is now riding the shoot out the door.
- Carrier was an in-house guy who spent 4 years overcooking in Milwaukee. Maybe he just sucks?
- Novak. Parts of 4 seasons after 4 years in college. He's the guy taking Evangelista under his wing.
- Evangelista. 1 year in the AHL. I guess not everyone we draft sucks?
- Smith. 2 seasons in the minors. Nobody drafted him, so maybe that helped.

Honestly, 5 guys and only 1 of them is really that young. 2 have been in the NHL for a while and 2 are overage late bloomers.

And since this argument always comes back to him anyway:

- Tomasino. 1 year and parts of 2 other seasons. ~2 total. Looks like he's on the shoot out the door.

In his case, he lit it up in juniors. Had a dominant year in the minors. Got promoted quickly to the big club. (But he didn't earn it supposedly.) Then he became a bad fit for the system, wasn't playing the right way, and has evolved to just not being good enough and a bust. It's an unusual development trajectory to say the least. He went from being a fast rising 1st round pick to a total bust, the decline as swift as the rise. So I guess that proves he isn't the same caliber despite being developed exactly like he played for the Stars organization.

 

[hockey diva]

I have beaten this drum for years. Our scouting particularly on forwards is abysmal! To be fair, I don’t know if there were more talented forwards available and Poile went with the safe pick. Still, you would think after 25 years we would have stumbled into drafting more than a 2-3 top 6 forwards.

I am very jealous of Dallas’s embarrassment of riches…

 

[ShagDaddy]

None of the Dallas players you mentioned were developed in house because they either skipped the AHL all together or they spent a year or less in the AHL which isn’t enough time to develop.

So basically the Predators scouting department is severely lacking when compared to Dallas. Maybe the complaints shouldn’t be that the players the Predators draft aren’t getting into the NHL quick enough but instead the complaints should be that the Preds just have a poor scouting department and draft forwards that aren’t close to being NHL ready.

 

[Predsanddead24]

None of the Dallas players you mentioned were developed in house because they either skipped the AHL all together or they spent a year or less in the AHL which isn’t enough time to develop.

So basically the Predators scouting department is severely lacking when compared to Dallas. Maybe the complaints shouldn’t be that the players the Predators draft aren’t getting into the NHL quick enough but instead the complaints should be that the Preds just have a poor scouting department and draft forwards that aren’t close to being NHL ready.

I’m confused what your narrative around Dallas player development is. Were they overripe and earned their roles or did they come in NHL ready without needing development?

In any case, I think it’s probably a combo of both scouting and development issues. If you go through our draft history we hit pretty well on NHL caliber guys. What we haven’t hit on is top of the lineup guys. Some of that may be we’ve historically had a preference for safe picks but I think some of it is likely our developmental approach. We can’t see the counterfactual of if we’ve developed guys differently so you can’t know for sure but the fact that guys like Fiala and Tolvanen have been successful elsewhere suggests it isn’t wholly a scouting problem.

 

[ShagDaddy]

I’m confused what your narrative around Dallas player development is. Were they overripe and earned their roles or did they come in NHL ready without needing development?

In any case, I think it’s probably a combo of both scouting and development issues. If you go through our draft history we hit pretty well on NHL caliber guys. What we haven’t hit on is top of the lineup guys. Some of that may be we’ve historically had a preference for safe picks but I think some of it is likely our developmental approach. We can’t see the of if we’ve developed guys differently so you can’t know for sure but the fact that guys like Fiala and Tolvanen have been successful elsewhere suggests it isn’t wholly a scouting problem.

My narrative around Dallas player development is that the players that are playing on their roster earned their spots because they are NHL ready. The other players they have drafted that are not on their roster will overripen, overcook or whatever one wants to call it, until they are actually NHL ready. Dallas has drafted a hand full of players that were either straight up NHL ready or really close. Nashville has not drafted players that are straight up NHL ready or really close except Evangelista.

Numerous GM’s have said the worst thing they’ve done was to rush young players into the NHL too early. Putting players in a position where they were just trying to survive is detrimental to their development, that’s not just my opinion or thought, that’s the opinion and thought of actual General Managers that are in charge of NHL hockey organizations. I’m pretty sure that those people know what they’re talking about or they wouldn’t be in the positions they’re in.

Dallas has drafted much better than Nashville. The players that Nashville has drafted over the past few years aren’t ready to play in the NHL and forcing them into the Preds roster early is not doing them or the organization any good. The best thing Trotz could do to make Predators HFBoard happy would be to fire the scouting department and poach the entire Dallas scouting and player development department.

 

[Scoresberg]

For me the Dallas system means that when you draft a player and start driving them into the NHL, you do it properly. You find them a clear role, a strong mentor and a proper spot to succeed in.

It's what makes my head really shake is a guy like Tolvanen who comes out and says after the waive that he didn't know what the organization wanted out of him. That is really worrying and is now happening with Pärssinen and to some extent with Tomasino, too.

The overcooking strategy is straight BS with Dallas, if anything they've brought up their prospects quicker than just about anybody.

 

[Predsanddead24]

My narrative around Dallas player development is that the players that are playing on their roster earned their spots because they are NHL ready. The other players they have drafted that are not on their roster will overripen, overcook or whatever one wants to call it, until they are actually NHL ready. Dallas has drafted a hand full of players that were either straight up NHL ready or really close. Nashville has not drafted players that are straight up NHL ready or really close except Evangelista.

Numerous GM’s have said the worst thing they’ve done was to rush young players into the NHL too early. Putting players in a position where they were just trying to survive is detrimental to their development, that’s not just my opinion or thought, that’s the opinion and thought of actual General Managers that are in charge of NHL hockey organizations. I’m pretty sure that those people know what they’re talking about or they wouldn’t be in the positions they’re in.

Dallas has drafted much better than Nashville. The players that Nashville has drafted over the past few years aren’t ready to play in the NHL and forcing them into the Preds roster early is not doing them or the organization any good. The best thing Trotz could do to make Predators HFBoard happy would be to fire the scouting department and poach the entire Dallas scouting and player development department.

I think a lot of what makes guys feel like they are just trying to survive is that we put them with guys who can't shelter them at all. Dallas's approach has been when they call a guy up they stick him with top line vets who can provide that protection and then ride it out through the ups and downs. Our approach is call them up and either place them in the bottom six and make them earn there way up the lineup (see Tomasino) or play them in the top six and once they hit some struggles throw them down the lineup (see Parsinnen).

I do think the difference between us and Dallas is two-fold and agree they have a great scouting department that did especially well with the limited information when guys missed out on whole seasons because of Covid cancellations that got them Johnston and Stankoven. However, I think Hintz and Robertson demonstrate how effective their developmental approach when guys get to the NHL is. Both those guys when they got called up were immediately paired with vets. Hintz was good not great his first two seasons but they kept him with vets instead of stacking a single line and in the end it paid off. Robertson had one good not great AHL season then made the team out of camp and was put with vets. He hit the ground running and never looked back. I think things would look a lot different for those two if they had spent the majority of their time being with the McCarrons and Cousins of the world rather than guys like Seguin, Pavelski, and Radulov.

What frustrates me the most about it is that we made the right moves in the offseason to be able to take an approach like Dallas with development of guys in the NHL. However, despite starting with the idea we could use O'Reilly and Nyquist to help provide some stability to our young guys through their struggles we pretty much immediately gave up on that and loaded up a top line with all the vet talent. That decision may have helped us win a few more games in the regular season but the downsides of it become abundantly clear when we reached the playoffs. I also think we did a disservice to a guy like Evangelista who was still successful but I think has a lot more potential we didn't unlock by not giving him opportunities with our top players.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet on "growing pains" with players, and when they've demonstrated a certain level of NHL ability, you keep rolling them out even after they make a mistake or have a bad game. I think that's something we've been failing terribly at in recent years. Younger players WILL make some mistakes, but for some reason we don't seem to have much patience for that... and I don't really understand why, because it's not like we're a big contending team or anything, we really should have had more room to tolerate accommodation of learning curves than some other teams.

 

[weeze]

So which young players in the Predators organization are of the same caliber as
-Stankoven - Johnston —Dellandrea - Ribertson- Hintz- Heiskanen.
- Harley.- Lundqvist
and should have bypassed the AHL or spent a year or less in the AHL.?

That's a different question or point. That's more of a drafting question isn't it. Dallas drafted better players that were able to move to the NHL before Preds players or the Dallas system is a better system at allowing their players to become NHL players faster than the Preds system. Either way it looks like Dallas has it figured out.

 

[Scoresberg]

Let me throw a name around there:

Patrik Laine

Everyone and their dog knows about his off-ice problems but this is a player who has all the potential in the world. I think his problems are too well-documented in Columbus so I think both sides are looking for a change.

Don't have a clue on what it would take, but I'm thinking the new GM in CBJ is looking to make some changes and offloading Laine would be a start. CBJ has a fantastic prospect pool so I don't really think they're looking for picks or prospects at this point.

 

[Armourboy]

Let me throw a name around there:

Patrik Laine

Everyone and their dog knows about his off-ice problems but this is a player who has all the potential in the world. I think his problems are too well-documented in Columbus so I think both sides are looking for a change.

Don't have a clue on what it would take, but I'm thinking the new GM in CBJ is looking to make some changes and offloading Laine would be a start. CBJ has a fantastic prospect pool so I don't really think they're looking for picks or prospects at this point.

I'm not trading much for him tbh, and frankly I think it is an issue the CBJ GM is going to find if he does try to move him. For better or worse he has kind of built his stigma and once you do that in the NHL its pretty hard to get past it.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

I'm not trading much for him tbh, and frankly I think it is an issue the CBJ GM is going to find if he does try to move him. For better or worse he has kind of built his stigma and once you do that in the NHL its pretty hard to get past it.

Yeah Columbus is better off keeping him and hoping he bounces back. Because he isn’t going to bring any positive return now. Frankly I would only even take him for free if we struck out entirely on improving our team by other means and were sitting on $10M of unused Cap space in August.