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Raccoon Jesus

We were right there
Oct 30, 2008
63,820
67,150
I.E.
I'm just here to spout my pipe dream of

Josi/Doughty
Anderson/Clarke
Gavrikov/Spence
Edmundson

No I don't have an offer, haha. But I suspect Blake would trade anything to make this 'the year' since he's running out of equity.
 

Johnsie19

Registered User
Jun 29, 2010
2,607
386
I know it's wrong. But more accurately, I think it's an argument based off a false premise. Cause literally every player in the league is product of their environment. Every player on this planet plays within a 5 man unit, there will be contributions of course from who they surrounded by and that's the truth for everyone. But this ridiculous notion of the McD effect only gets applied to anyone that plays on the Oilers cause no one else has a McD. But just cause McD is the best help around, doesn't mean no one else gets help either.

Also, I've seen McD injured and I can see what Drai does away from him. He can carry the team all by himself too you know and has proven that many times in the past. Even in games where McD is healthy but he isn't playing well that night, which happened alot in his early years, especially his first playoff run, I saw Drai carrying the team as the defacto best player.

I don't blame anyone if they can't see it though. I've watched every single minute of McD and Drai's careers, to come to these conclusions.
Of course every player is affected by his linemates and teammates and even team structure. McDavid is just kind of the example the theory taken to its furthest degree because he's the best player. Just look at Stamkos away from Kucherov too. I think you'd agree that one was pretty predictable because he didn't even look good analytically.

I agree Draisaitl is all world too. But he benefits hugely from McDavid taking the no. 1 match up. Doesn't mean he can't or doesn't carry the team at times too.
 

glenngineer

Registered User
Jan 27, 2010
7,191
2,374
Franklin, TN
Of course every player is affected by his linemates and teammates and even team structure. McDavid is just kind of the example the theory taken to its furthest degree because he's the best player. Just look at Stamkos away from Kucherov too. I think you'd agree that one was pretty predictable because he didn't even look good analytically.

I agree Draisaitl is all world too. But he benefits hugely from McDavid taking the no. 1 match up. Doesn't mean he can't or doesn't carry the team at times too.
For whatever it’s worth, Stamkos has looked much better over the last 5 games now that he’s centering Forsberg and Marchessault. Not really sure why it took so long to try this combo but it’s working. It’s a small sample size but all three seem to be clicking. The only thing that isn’t working is Fil putting the puck in the net. He is racking up the assists.

I’m not even going to enter the Josi/Bouchard discussion. Haha.
 

TheNumber4

Registered User
Nov 11, 2011
46,873
58,178
Of course every player is affected by his linemates and teammates and even team structure. McDavid is just kind of the example the theory taken to its furthest degree because he's the best player. Just look at Stamkos away from Kucherov too. I think you'd agree that one was pretty predictable because he didn't even look good analytically.

I agree Draisaitl is all world too. But he benefits hugely from McDavid taking the no. 1 match up. Doesn't mean he can't or doesn't carry the team at times too.
The thing about Stamkos is that he’s been in that complementary tier of players for a while now. His reputation lasted far too long, and his drop away from Kucherov was expected. In fact I called him being a carried by Kuch long before we saw the results in Nashville. He was a one tee hammer, and mostly just that for Kuch to set up.

Draisaitl is a driver though himself though. The impression is that he’s also a one tee hammer, but he’s more than that and more than just McD can set him up for that. Drais playmaking is at an elite level, and he scores in many various ways. So the comparison falls apart there.
 

Johnsie19

Registered User
Jun 29, 2010
2,607
386
"Certainly better than his actual on ice contribution, would be the general consensus."

The general consensus is cause when Bouch makes a boo-boo that's what the non-Oiler fans see posted on Hfboards or Twitter or wherever. When he makes multiple nifty high IQ passes per game, none of that gets posted. But Oilers fans see it and Oilers fans know how high end his vision and skillset is. I honestly don't think he deserved to be on Team Canada, cause Bouch started the year rough, along with the whole team who was dealing with an extreme Cup hangover. But we will see if Armstrong is right, alot of his picks seem biased and based on players he's had on his cup winning teams from before that are now past their prime.

That Jfresh chart is 2022 vs 2024 though. Keep in mind also Jfresh cards capture a 3 year rolling average, so considering how Elite Josi was back then for a long stretch that would make sense to have him so high, and he deserved it. No doubt Josi was the elite of the elite 2 years ago (and the 3 years prior). I think Bouch has passed him in overall impact currently though. A more updated comparison would be hockeystatcards (sources Dom's data) and has Bouch at a +6.1 net impact vs. Josi's +0.5. Now I'm willing to give Josi the benefit of the doubt for alot of that rating considering the Predators poor season this year, but that's a sizeable gap right there. Then I think back to games I've actually watched recently and I was left thinking... where's my Josi impact I used to love seeing?

That site does use Game Impact scores, which I've personally tried to verify. I watch games by eye and iso-watch ONE player through it's entirely. Then I give him a verbal score. Like if I say a player had a decent game, most often then not it's slightly positive of center. If I think a player had a great game most often then not it's way in the positive. But personally I think the game impacts ratings are fine for a ONE game sample.

That said the overall player ratings is what I'm talking about not the game impact score averages. Which are based on accumulated game impacts along with other metrics raked in. So this is the more relevant list than the game impact score one where you saw Hronek rated too high (I agree by the way). Right now Makar is leading Hughes and Werenski is 3rd. I would say that is very accurate considering the general chatter and what we know of those players. Makar and Hughes are who they are... and Werenski is having a Norris quality season. And Bouchard is currently 6th behind Hedman and Carlson who are having resurgent seasons.

If you are Nucks fan I'm actually surprised you'd rate Bouch so low. Now in the regular season it's quite obvious that Hughes drives the play for his team at a level higher than Bouch. But in that head to head series, Hughes was not at his best and Bouch made more impacts for his team. His impacts however are not and will never be as flashy as Hughes, but that doesn't mean they can't be as effective. Like I said earlier, his impacts are more one touch and it's blink and you miss it. It's see a pass that no one see's. It's slight jukes to open up a play instead of Hughes going around the world in the O-zone to see a play. So i understand the disconnect in your eye test for that reason.
I know what you mean people go overboard about his mistakes but I think it's disingenuous to suggest thats the only criticism of him. That's true we will see if he was right or not but you are talking about a panel of literally the best coaches and hockey minds in the world, including scouts, doing extensive research into who is going to help them win. And they may not win but it is a strong case against your assessment that they didn't want him on the team.

You said you used JFresh so I just mentioned what is publicly available. Wasn't sure if you subscribed. I get the athletic so i know Dom's numbers but he hasn't update for this yr yet. As I say they were similar last yr. And it definitely skews toward players on better teams.

Looking more at hockeystatscards, Bouchard has a quality of teammate (offense) of 10.7, Josi's is 2.8. QOT defense Bouchard 1.05, Josi .34. So ya the Hronek, Quinn Hughes effect is real for Bouchard. That isn't to say he doesn't make those little plays you talk about, and that he isn't one of the better dmen in the league.

The game score was the average score per game. So it is an accumulated stat as well. In the end though I think Bouchard is just one of those guys who benefits so greatly from the situation he finds himself in. I guess we will never know unless he's traded but I don't rate him that highly.

You have to realize how easy relatively it is to exist in the shadows of a guy like McDavid or Draisaitl. Just look at even Ekholm who has resurrected his career in Edmonton. How did he manage a career high in points last yr at 33. Any guesses? Bouchard is a minor part before you go there.
 

Johnsie19

Registered User
Jun 29, 2010
2,607
386
The thing about Stamkos is that he’s been in that complementary tier of players for a while now. His reputation lasted far too long, and his drop away from Kucherov was expected. In fact I called him being a carried by Kuch long before we saw the results in Nashville. He was a one tee hammer, and mostly just that for Kuch to set up.

Draisaitl is a driver though himself though. The impression is that he’s also a one tee hammer, but he’s more than that and more than just McD can set him up for that. Drais playmaking is at an elite level, and he scores in many various ways. So the comparison falls apart there.
Oh no you are definitely oversimplifying things if you are comparing Stamkos and Draisaitl's reputation over the last couple seasons as similar. Stamkos has fallen off, where as Draisaitl was criticized and rightly so at times for awful defensive effort, never that he wasn't all world offensively.

Most people predicted Stamkos's drop. But that is my point. Being next to world class players can make you look better than you are. It's my contention with Bouchard.
 

belair

Win it for Ben!
Apr 9, 2010
39,788
23,573
Canada
In all seriousness, what's the likelihood of Edmonton getting Sissons at half? He would fit their bottom six like a glove.

Nashville apparently had eyes on Max Wanner in the summer.
 

TheNumber4

Registered User
Nov 11, 2011
46,873
58,178
Oh no you are definitely oversimplifying things if you are comparing Stamkos and Draisaitl's reputation over the last couple seasons as similar. Stamkos has fallen off, where as Draisaitl was criticized and rightly so at times for awful defensive effort, never that he wasn't all world offensively.

Most people predicted Stamkos's drop. But that is my point. Being next to world class players can make you look better than you are. It's my contention with Bouchard.
The thing about Drais defensive effort. Is that it’s not consistent. But when it’s on, like when he’s going at 100% its Selke lever quality. Showed it in the first 2 rounds in the playoffs(before injury) and showing it this year as well. I don’t think Stamkos has that in his game at all.
 

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