Nash nets 3rd of the season

[wildone26*]

Talking only about Nash's goals it to ignore the importance of assists. Keep in mind at Worlds Nash had 3 more goals than Thorton, but 4 fewer assists. If goals were much more important than assists they probably would have given the MVP award to Nash, but they chose to gave it to Thornton, underlining that assists are considered equally important as goals. Refering only to goals is more flattering to Nash than referring to total points though since his assists do not stack up to his goal totals. The year he tied for the Maurice Richard Trophy, with most goals, he was almost 40 points from winning the Art Ross, for most points. That is far more significant than winning the Maurice Richard, that he was so far from the top point-getters in the league still.

 

[jacketracket*]

Talking only about Nash's goals it to ignore the importance of assists. Keep in mind at Worlds Nash had 3 more goals than Thorton, but 4 fewer assists.

So, in an international tourney, where Nash was plaing with the best and against the best, Thornton outscored him by a point.

Wow, he sucks ...

If goals were much more important than assists they probably would have given the MVP award to Nash, but they chose to gave it to Thornton, underlining that assists are considered equally important as goals.

Damn shame they don't score the games by assists made, eh?

Refering only to goals is more flattering to Nash than referring to total points though since his assists do not stack up to his goal totals. The year he tied for the Maurice Richard Trophy, with most goals, he was almost 40 points from winning the Art Ross, for most points. That is far more significant than winning the Maurice Richard, that he was so far from the top point-getters in the league still.

Wonder why his assist totals don't stack up to his goal totals? Have you seen how truly pathetic the CBJ offense has been this season, without Nash? Nobody can finish. They're averaging less than 2 goals per game. Yet somehow Nash was expected to rack up points with this anemic bunch last season?

Yet amazingly Nash was able to put up points playing alongside Thornton, with Davos, during the lockout. What a coincidence.

On a side note, I am recusing myself from further argument on this matter, as my sister surprised me with an autographed Rick Nash stick for Christmas.

I feel I can no longer remain unbiased.

 

[arrbez]

Nash has failed to ever be part of a major winning team at any level,

I believe he was part of the U-18 team that won gold in 2001. If I'm not mistaken, he lead the team in scoring.

He scored 10 goals and 9 assists in 12 playoff games in his final year with the Knights, leading his team. I think you're way off base if you think he should have lead his team to the memorial cup...

Once again, in the World Championships last year he had 15 points in 9 games and lead the tourny in goals. They were overmatched in the finals, and that's why they lost. Rick Nash did not cause Canada to lose. This seems very obvious to me.

 

[arrbez]

Talking only about Nash's goals it to ignore the importance of assists. Keep in mind at Worlds Nash had 3 more goals than Thorton, but 4 fewer assists. If goals were much more important than assists they probably would have given the MVP award to Nash, but they chose to gave it to Thornton, underlining that assists are considered equally important as goals.

Joe Thornton > Rick Nash?

Duh.


Much more importantly however,

Joe Thornton + Rick Nash = absolute awsomeness.


Sure, Joe Thornton makes him a better player. That's the whole point. That's why I would imagine they'll play together again at the Olympics. They have some serious chemestry going.



BTW, your average goal is indeed more important than your average assists (due to the fact that the second-assist stat exists). Thornton did not win MVP because he had more assists though. He won it because he was the best player in the tournament, which is not something you can hold against another player.

 

[Tricolore#20]

I'm a Rick Nash fan, and I agree he should probably be on the team, simply because of his goal scorer ability and his skating ability for such a big body. But I must also admit that wildone26 has brought up some interesting points, and I'd like to support somewhat that his World Championship performance was overrated.

Nash was mostly impressive during the round robin portion of the tournament. He scored 3 goals against Latvia, 2 goals against the USA and one goal each against the Swedes, the Finns, the Slovenians and Ukraine and was generally a force in most of those games. However, watching him in the 3 elimination games, he wasn't as assertive as he was in the opening round. He picked up 4 assists in those 3 games, certainly not bad, but a really different player than the Rick Nash that was seen in the opening round. Now, perhaps that was because of tighter checking being put on him (since the Nash hype had overtaken the hockey world that May) or maybe he couldn't deal with the extra pressure, I'm not sure. But based on his last 3 games, I'd say that his World Championships experience probably wasn't as great as many people seem to think it was. Sure he was great and all world in the opening games, but he really tailed off in the elimination games. This might be an unpopular opinion, but it was my observation at the time even, and that was probably the reason Thornton won the MVP despite all the Nash hype at the time.

What I think helped Nash's cause even more was his performance at the summer evaluation camp in August. While the "hype" of his World Championships was still being felt, he must have really shown great chemistry and work rate at that camp to be included. It was a general consensus at the time (I remember Pierre LeBrun especially talking big about Nash) that Nash was a lock for the team, because he was so impressive. If you look at the situation now, it probably is fair to say that Nash shouldn't be on the team, but the people who ran Team Canada saw what Nash could do in the right situation and thought it would be too hard to pass that over.

 

[wildone26*]

I agree with Tricolore#20, the reason Nash did not win the MVP at Worlds, and Thornton did, is because Nash was only fairly good in the quarters, semis, and finals, after being outstanding the rest of the tournament; while Thornton who had been the 2nd best player in the tournament, was a major force in both the quarters and semis, much moreso than Nash was, and those were more "critical" games. That brings back to my initial point of showing more of the qualities of being a "winner". I also heard he was incredable at the summer evaluation camp, and that probably locked his spot on the team. I dont agree there are no guys to put the puck in the net in Columbus if you have the ability to assist, what about Vborny for example, who Nash has played with often. Columbus isnt that strong a team, but the other top end players, while Nash is clearly their best player, are not so weak there are not good opportunities to assist, although I admit I dont get to see Columbus play as much as other teams.

 

[Epsilon]

Nash's stat line in now a robust 3 goals and 0 assists in 8 games.

 

[Ejh18]

Nash's stat line in now a robust 3 goals and 0 assists in 8 games.

Nash also didn't have a training camp, the original injury happened in one of the first practices of TC... and has missed signifigant time with leg injuries since then.

He needs to get back into playing shape.

 

[Crosbyfan]

Nash also didn't have a training camp, the original injury happened in one of the first practices of TC... and has missed signifigant time with leg injuries since then.

He needs to get back into playing shape.

Maybe the Olympics will be a good opportunity to do that.

 

[wildone26*]

Maybe the Olympics will be a good opportunity to do that.

Ummm, wouldnt you want your players to be in good playing shape before the Olympics?

 

[joe_shannon_1983*]

Nash also didn't have a training camp, the original injury happened in one of the first practices of TC... and has missed signifigant time with leg injuries since then.

He needs to get back into playing shape.

Excuses....It is funny how nobody makes/accepts those excuses when guys like Kariya get hindered by identical injuries, as was the case in 2004.

It seems as though only Nash gets to use injuries as an excuse for his lacklustre play, even though it would be more accurate to attribute his lacklustre play to his unpolished and over-rated game.

 

[joe_shannon_1983*]

BTW, your average goal is indeed more important than your average assists (due to the fact that the second-assist stat exists).

Okay, so 2nd assists are BS.

How about we assume that every play receives half of their assists from 2nd assists (half since this is what mathematical probability suggests would happen).

When throwing out half of the assists that players get (in other words, not including all of the so-called BS assists):

Nash last injury-free season:
GP = 80
G = 41
A = 8
PTS = 49
PPG = 0.61

Tanguay last relatively injury-free season:
GP = 69
G = 25
A = 27
PTS = 52
PPG = 0.75

Kariya last injury-free season:
GP = 82
G = 25
A = 28
PTS = 53
PPG = 0.65

In hockey, the goal is not to individually score the most goals, but to have your team score more goals than the other team. In other words, a player who helps their team-mates score is just as valuable as a player who himself scores.

And when you get rid of all so-called BS assists, and just factor in genuine and legitimate assists, then guys like Tanguay and Kariya help a team score more goals than Nash does.

And this does not even mention the fact that Kariya and Tanguay are: a) better defensive players; b) better leaders; c) proven winners; and d) more experienced and battle-tested.

Nash is not as good as these players are at this point of time. Thus, I think it is stupid that Nash is on the team before these guys are.

 

[wildone26*]

Excuses....It is funny how nobody makes/accepts those excuses when guys like Kariya get hindered by identical injuries, as was the case in 2004.

It seems as though only Nash gets to use injuries as an excuse for his lacklustre play, even though it would be more accurate to attribute his lacklustre play to his unpolished and over-rated game.

You are right, nobody gives Kariya any benefit of doubt when his dissapointing 03-04 dropped him out of the games elite, when he had similar injuries to what Nash currently has, even though he has recovered and is playing elite hockey again.

Everything about Nash seems to be supersized. At Worlds when I concur he was one the best players reports refer to him not as "one of the best players, or at best as "arguably Canada's top forward of the tournament" but instead as "the dominant player of the Championships", "by far Canada's best forward", even though he won neither the MVP or best forward award, something somebody who was "the dominant" or "by far.......best forward" would have won. People also ignore the fact only he, Thornton and a few others were in playing shape for the event, many were not. People mention his tieing for the NHL lead in goals at such a young age in 03-04, ignore his low assists total, diminish the importance of assists, and attribute it to having no good linemates, when Vborny who he played with had almost the same points for the year(53)and many more assists(although far fewer goals, my point is not comparing them, but that the argument it is not feasable to have more assists than Nash did because he plays for Columbus is faulty). People ignore the fact he has never been on a major winning team, either through inability to be a difference-maker, or through missing some events due to injury or ailments validating his injury/illness prone ways which for most players are a liability in how they are viewed. He is just always-1)unlucky to miss this event he might have won it, unlucky to face a hot goalie, did not get the support from his teammates, not on strong enough team.......2)does not have teammates that allow him to get more assists, have teammates that makes him so suspect defensively, 3)not sharp since he was injured or sick, had to miss some time of training camp(as if others never miss any training camp due to various circumstances).

He has only 3 points in 8 games now, how embarassing for a member of the star-studded team Canada, who is no way a role player, purely an termination-100 % offense only player. It is amazing some people say Draper should not be on the team because he is not scoring alot(I see the point to some extent, although since they needed a checking specialist, and Primeau got that concussion, and Maltby is having an even less strong year, he was probably the only possable choice), when he is somebody whose game is far from being based around points(although in some other years he was playing alot better, he still achieved alot more than he is this year), when Nash who is only a goal scorer is not considered a questionable choice when he also is not scoring.

 

[joe_shannon_1983*]

Ummm, wouldnt you want your players to be in good playing shape before the Olympics?

Generally, yes.

But somehow, the guy that everyone talks about like he is some kind of Mike Bossy/Maurice Richard hybrid gets to avoid having to prove himself ready to play in the Olympics.

All while guys like Tanguay and Kariya seemingly can't do enough to prove that they are ready to play.

 

[joe_shannon_1983*]

By the way, people are saying that Nash has 3 points in 8 games this season?

It is actually 3 points in 9 games this season.

 

[wildone26*]

By the way, people are saying that Nash has 3 points in 8 games this season?

It is actually 3 points in 9 games this season.

You are right, I forgot about yesterday's game. His ratio is continuing to slip.

 

[joe_shannon_1983*]

People mention his tieing for the NHL lead in goals at such a young age in 03-04, ignore his low assists total, diminish the importance of assists, and attribute it to having no good linemates, when Vborny who he played with had almost the same points for the year(53)and many more assists(although far fewer goals, my point is not comparing them, but that the argument it is not feasable to have more assists than Nash did because he plays for Columbus is faulty).

Excellent point. However, it is one that unfortunately gets lost in "Nash-mania".

Besides, if Nash was such a superstar, he would be able to help his team-mates in Columbus score, since great players are supposed to make others around them better. He wouldn't need to use the "bad team-mates" or "bad team" excuse for his low assist totals.

They used to say that a fire hydrant could score 50 goals playing with Gretzky.

Now, not to compare Nash to Gretzky, but the same logic applies to him.

If Nash was such a superstar, then he would be able to help his team-mates score goals, rather than use "bad team-mates" or "bad team" excuse for his low assist totals.

People ignore the fact he has never been on a major winning team, either through inability to be a difference-maker, or through missing some events due to injury or ailments validating his injury/illness prone ways which for most players are a liability in how they are viewed. He is just always-1)unlucky to miss this event he might have won it, unlucky to face a hot goalie, did not get the support from his teammates, not on strong enough team.......2)does not have teammates that allow him to get more assists, have teammates that makes him so suspect defensively, 3)not sharp since he was injured or sick, had to miss some time of training camp(as if others never miss any training camp due to various circumstances).

Great players (which Rick Nash supposedly is, according to many people) are supposed to rise to the top. That is why his "hot goalie" excuse you mention in "1)" is junk.

Great players (which Rick Nash supposedly is, according to many people) are supposed to make team-mates around them better. That is why his "bad team-mates" or "bad team" excuse you mention in both "1)" and "2)" is junk.

Part of being a great player (which Rick Nash supposedly is, according to many people) is staying healthy. If he is ALWAYS having to use "health" as as excuse for bad performance as you mention in "3)", then he shouldn't be considered a great player.

He has only 3 points in 8 games now, how embarassing for a member of the star-studded team Canada, who is no way a role player, purely an termination-100 % offense only player. It is amazing some people say Draper should not be on the team because he is not scoring alot(I see the point to some extent, although since they needed a checking specialist, and Primeau got that concussion, he was probably the only possable choice), when he is somebody whose game is far from being rased around points(although in some other years he was playing alot better, he still achieved alot more than he is this year), when Nash who is only a goal scorer is not considered a questionable choice when he also is not scoring.

People seem to forget sometimes that Nash is an offense-only player. And for an offense-only player to only have 3 points in 9 games, and a career-high of 57 points, well I find that to be unacceptable. Unacceptable for a guy who gets the praise and acclaim that Rick Nash does.

3 points in 9 games, with a career-best 57 points, is fine if you are Kris Draper or Bob Gainey (ie. a shut-down defensive specialists whose role is defense, not offense).

3 points in 9 games, with a career-best 57 points, is fine if you are Steve Yzerman or Mark Messier or Ryan Smyth (ie. a born leader and winner, whose intangibles don't even come close to showing up on the scoresheet).

But 3 points in 9 games, with a career-best 57 points, is not fine for a offense-only player who is horrible defensively, hasn't proven anything in the leadership or winning department, and lacks experience.

 

[jacketracket*]

... I dont agree there are no guys to put the puck in the net in Columbus if you have the ability to assist, what about Vborny for example, who Nash has played with often. Columbus isnt that strong a team, but the other top end players, while Nash is clearly their best player, are not so weak there are not good opportunities to assist, although I admit I dont get to see Columbus play as much as other teams.

Where were all these "other top-end players" when Nash was out? Surely, someone would have stepped up and replaced Nash's scoring while he was down ...

He's proven repeatedly what he can do with talented players around him. That's why he was chosen

 

[jacketracket*]

Excellent point. However, it is one that unfortunately gets lost in "Nash-mania".



But 3 points in 9 games, with a career-best 57 points, is not fine for a offense-only player who is horrible defensively, hasn't proven anything in the leadership or winning department, and lacks experience.

Perhaps you should address your qualms to Team Canada.

He's just back from a prolonged injury. 9 games seems a little quick to judge his offensive abilities unless you're carrying a grudge, and have already prejudged the guy.

 

[Crosbyfan]

Ummm, wouldnt you want your players to be in good playing shape before the Olympics?

Yes. Well done Wildone.

I find it extremely odd that Nash, who may have great potential and may play great in the Olympics, was chosen over other young talent that:

1) are playing at a level now that it is hoped Nash will play
2) are in shape now
3) were left off the team due to their youth and inexperience in spite of currently outperforming most of the forwards that were selected to the team

 

[Crosbyfan]

Perhaps you should address your qualms to Team Canada.

He's just back from a prolonged injury. 9 games seems a little quick to judge his offensive abilities unless you're carrying a grudge, and have already prejudged the guy.

This is the problem. Noone is really prejudging him. Except Team Canada. They are really prejudging him.

 

[jacketracket*]

This is the problem. Noone is really prejudging him. Except Team Canada. They are really prejudging him.

True enough ... it's not as if they had had a chance to have already watched how the guy would perform in an international tourney, like the Worlds.

 

[therealdeal]

Nash is gonna be excellent as usual at this tourney, excited to have him there.

 

[Crosbyfan]

True enough ... it's not as if they had had a chance to have already watched how the guy would perform in an international tourney, like the Worlds.

They did at that. So I guess they can expect him to play very well in the early games prior to the medal round.

Seriously, I have nothing against Nash. I just think it is odd that Team Canada would take a chance on him and not take a chance on other young players that are playing extremely well but at the same time choosing some veteran players that are not.

It is almost like Nash has been given the "bye" thought only reserved for a Lemieux or Yzerman.

This has no reflection on Nash, his ability or character. He may very well have made the team had he not been injured and I'm not suggesting he step aside no matter how well, good or bad, he plays leading up to the Olympics.

I just don't see him as a proven superstar that deserves a "bye". How many other players would warrant that? Sakic? Iginla? Thornton?

 

[wildone26*]

I hope Nash is the 13th forward in Turin and sits on the bench alot. He would not be an effective 4th line player, and if they use all of Bertuzzi, St. Louis, or Richards on the first 3 lines there will be no room for him on the first 3 lines since Iginla, Sakic, Thornton, LeCavalier, Gagne, and Heatley are locks to be on a first 3 line.