Confirmed Trade: [MTL/NSH] P.K. Subban for Shea Weber - Part III

[Stjonnypopo]

I hate it that we need to bash Subban to justify this trade.

I like the trade, I think Weber will help this team for a long time, both players are incredible and help their teams their own way. No need to compare them just yet (since they haven't played a single game for their new teams yet...)

 

[Roof Daddy]

This.

Before the Subban, almost everyone in Montreal would've put Weber in their top-10, even top-5 if not top-3. Now we get him, and suddenly...he's 31, and clearly over the hill. Can't make a pass to save his life, and has the mobility of a rock. And did you see that game 7 ?!? What a disgrace.

Geeezz...

I'm a huge Weber fan, but he honestly did look a shade slower the last year or so. 3 years ago I felt he was the best D man in the game, but losing half a step has hindered his game a bit. Prior to the trade, I assure you no one had him in their top 5, probably few considered him top 10. Josi surpassed him on his own team, many around the league did as well.

With that said, the intangibles he brings certainly make up for the slight drop off to his game. Toughness, leadership, and respect he has in the league (from both opponents and officials) will be night and day going from PK to Shea. PK's superior skill can change the complexion of a game unlike Weber, but the same can be said of his sideshow antics.

This trade will be a loss for the Habs eventually, but I don't think it will be considered such in the first 3 years.

 

[OldCraig71]

I'm a huge Weber fan, but he honestly did look a shade slower the last year or so. 3 years ago I felt he was the best D man in the game, but losing half a step has hindered his game a bit. Prior to the trade, I assure you no one had him in their top 5, probably few considered him top 10. Josi surpassed him on his own team, many around the league did as well.

With that said, the intangibles he brings certainly make up for the slight drop off to his game. Toughness, leadership, and respect he has in the league (from both opponents and officials) will be night and day going from PK to Shea. PK's superior skill can change the complexion of a game unlike Weber, but the same can be said of his sideshow antics.

This trade will be a loss for the Habs eventually, but I don't think it will be considered such in the first 3 years.

In trading Subban to Nashville and taking an older player albeit a very good one is Bergevin saying that we are in win now mode. He has to feel that with Weber that we are a contending team but that's the thing, we aren't. We are a mostly one dimensional small team that rests it's fortune on the back of Carey Price and without him we are not all that scary. We are a mid pack non physical team with some talented players but I don't look at our lineup and see contender. We still have a 5'3" midget as a center that none of the league wants but the Habs org treats him like the second coming of Rocket Richard. We do have Radulov and that should be interesting, I will however pay more attention to Nashville, PK and Josi should be quite the duo, the Preds just got better.

 

[The Jones Zone]

Just got done reading the interview Bergevin did with NHL.com

excellent interview, great read



here's the link if anyone is interested

https://www.nhl.com/news/canadiens-gm-marc-bergevin-talks-pk-subban-trade/c-281145516

 

[JS19]

[/B]

In trading Subban to Nashville and taking an older player albeit a very good one is Bergevin saying that we are in win now mode. He has to feel that with Weber that we are a contending team but that's the thing, we aren't. We are a mostly one dimensional small team that rests it's fortune on the back of Carey Price and without him we are not all that scary. We are a mid pack non physical team with some talented players but I don't look at our lineup and see contender. We still have a 5'3" midget as a center that none of the league wants but the Habs org treats him like the second coming of Rocket Richard. We do have Radulov and that should be interesting, I will however pay more attention to Nashville, PK and Josi should be quite the duo, the Preds just got better.

Agreed with everything you said. The top-6/9 and defence still needs more quality depth. I wonder just what MB sees with his team, because I don't think they're prime to go deep into the playoffs, let alone contend for the Stanley Cup. Not with TBL, PIT, FLA in the East staring them down. And especially not with some dangerous West teams.

 

[ohmyjlord]

I'm a huge Weber fan, but he honestly did look a shade slower the last year or so. 3 years ago I felt he was the best D man in the game, but losing half a step has hindered his game a bit. Prior to the trade, I assure you no one had him in their top 5, probably few considered him top 10. Josi surpassed him on his own team, many around the league did as well.

With that said, the intangibles he brings certainly make up for the slight drop off to his game. Toughness, leadership, and respect he has in the league (from both opponents and officials) will be night and day going from PK to Shea. PK's superior skill can change the complexion of a game unlike Weber, but the same can be said of his sideshow antics.

This trade will be a loss for the Habs eventually, but I don't think it will be considered such in the first 3 years.

I agree with pretty much everything there, though I still maintain that Weber would've cracked, rightfully or not, many top-10 and top-5 (top-3 might've been a reach) around here based on his reputation alone.

That being said, I have no problem admitting that PK has superior skills, and can change the complexion of game, unlike Weber. But as someone who's seen A LOT of PK over the years, I will say that he unfortunately can change it...both ways.

The problem with PK, in my opinion, is that he has trouble channeling his enthusiasm on and off the ice. He's not a bad man. I think he cares about the team, about his teammates, about winning games, about doing the best each and every shift. But emotions tend to cloud his judgement.

I sincerely hope Nashville will get the best version of PK. It'll be interesting to see how things mesh between him and Josi, but they do have the potential to be the best pairing in the NHL. My main concern is how PK will handle himself off the ice in 2017-18, when he'll feel more at home in the Preds lockerroom.

 

[Wats]

Weber is incredibly better than Faulk, he's just older than him. He's the kind of guy who will drag a team kicking and screaming into the playoffs by himself. Seriously it's not that bad a deal for you guys.

Price can already get them to playoffs. Price+ Subban can reach ECF. Habs needs someone who can keep up in playoffs and not fall off the boat like everyone except Subban has these past few years.

Now if Weber's intangibles can magically get Markov, Pacioretty, Plekanec, etc to produce in playoffs like they do in regular season...then I'll concede to his value off the ice being important.

 

[HuGo Sham]

[/B]

In trading Subban to Nashville and taking an older player albeit a very good one is Bergevin saying that we are in win now mode. He has to feel that with Weber that we are a contending team but that's the thing, we aren't. We are a mostly one dimensional small team that rests it's fortune on the back of Carey Price and without him we are not all that scary. We are a mid pack non physical team with some talented players but I don't look at our lineup and see contender. We still have a 5'3" midget as a center that none of the league wants but the Habs org treats him like the second coming of Rocket Richard. We do have Radulov and that should be interesting, I will however pay more attention to Nashville, PK and Josi should be quite the duo, the Preds just got better.

Because of the market, habs are essentially always in win now mode (or make playoffs mode). I think he probably sees it as a lateral move with habs gaining in leadership/defensive zone vs slight drop off in offence/ skill. I'm not convinced he makes this trade if habs don't land sergachev - who might very well make habs this year

 

[CanadienShark]

Wow, Habs fans are totally stripping down PK's reputation. All i heard before was how great of a person he is and etc.....

But i guess you have to run a smear campaign to justify the trade.

Probably because a large number of the PK fans are no longer Habs fans - that was the final straw for Bergevin.

 

[BeastoftheEast85]

Shea Weber is still one of the best Dman in the league and if Montreal can get it together this could turn out to be a fair trade. If not this could be Roy 2.0 I could see price walking if they dont get their act together in the next 2 years and then it's 20 years mediocrity like after Roy. Honestly it would have been less risky to clean up management/coaching then to trade Subban. But I could see why Montreal management would rather trade their franchise/Norris defensemen than fire themselves.

Nothing against Montreal l, I hope this works out for them.

 

[Wats]

Just got done reading the interview Bergevin did with NHL.com

excellent interview, great read



here's the link if anyone is interested

https://www.nhl.com/news/canadiens-gm-marc-bergevin-talks-pk-subban-trade/c-281145516

The fact he has to come out and deny claims about why he traded Subban suggests those claims strike a cord. He wasn't even pried about it and still brought it up himself.

His rationale of what appeals to him about players rarely involve actual evaluation of on ice ability. It's character, credibility, gold medals, cup rings, playoff stats, etc.

 

[Adam Michaels]

Shea Weber is still one of the best Dman in the league and if Montreal can get it together this could turn out to be a fair trade. If not this could be Roy 2.0 I could see price walking if they dont get their act together in the next 2 years and then it's 20 years mediocrity like after Roy. Honestly it would have been less risky to clean up management/coaching then to trade Subban. But I could see why Montreal management would rather trade their franchise/Norris defensemen than fire themselves.

Nothing against Montreal l, I hope this works out for them.

This is FAAARRRR from Roy 2.0. Patrick Roy was a fan favorite whose impact rooted deep within Habs fans. PK Subban was the same way. However, there are a few differences.

The main reason being Roy helped bring 2 Stanley Cups to Montreal ('86 & '93). PK helped bring zero. This is definitely a team sport and it's not Roy alone who won those cups and it's not PK alone who failed to bring one. But we're comparing Roy and Subban individually. And the measuring stick is always the Stanley Cup.

The second reason is that we gave away Roy (and Mike Keane) for Thibeault, Rucinsky, and Kovalenko. In terms of positions, it was Roy for Thibeault. No offence to Jocelyn, but he couldn't lace up Roy's jockstrap, let alone his skates.

Subban for Weber is trading an elite defenseman for another elite defenseman. Their age difference and advanced stats don't tell the whole story of the trade.

This one is far from Roy 2.0. What could have been seen as Roy 2.0 would be if Subban was traded for Marc Methot, as a quick example.

 

[BeastoftheEast85]

^ The Roy trade was certainly much worse even at the time. As you break down makes it clear. In terms of impact though I meant more how the Roy trade sent Montreal down a path towards mediocrity. I think their is a sizable chance that the Subban trade could do the same when we look back in 10 years. Which makes it too risky imo.

 

[Adam Michaels]

^ The Roy trade was certainly much worse even at the time. As you break down makes it clear. In terms of impact though I meant more how the Roy trade sent Montreal down a path towards mediocrity. I think their is a sizable chance that the Subban trade could do the same when we look back in 10 years. Which makes it too risky imo.

I disagree with that. The Roy trade sent the team down a dark path of mediocrity because they didn't get anything of significance in return. If Roy was traded for Brodeur, Belfour or Hasek, they would not have gone down that road.

You're right about us better judging this trade in hindsight. I don't see how Subban for Weber is a one-sided trade heavily favoring Nashville. I think it's a good move for both sides as things stand now from my point of view with neither player playing a single game with their new teams.

 

[E82]

The fact he has to come out and deny claims about why he traded Subban suggests those claims strike a cord. He wasn't even pried about it and still brought it up himself.

His rationale of what appeals to him about players rarely involve actual evaluation of on ice ability. It's character, credibility, gold medals, cup rings, playoff stats, etc.

For all I care Weber might be a better Dman in the regular season but when it comes game time(PlayOffs, It's been Doughty, Keith, Subban, recently Letang) SO basically we traded the leading ppg DMan in the playoffs for one who just hasn't brought it at all in the post season.

 

[Jaynki]

In my opinion,

A defenseman playing rock solid defense like Weber and still managing to score 15-23 goals and 45-55 points. It's just ridiculous the impact and the stability he brings to a line-up, playing that type of game for 25+ min a night.

Subban is clearly better in the offensive side of the game and in the puck carrying department.

But Shea bring something really special.

IMO, it's hard to argue who is the best between the two, they are two different prototype. It's a question of preference at this point, and the tangent right now in the NHL is with puck moving D.

But watching those two plays, no wonder why Shea Weber is prefered over PK for Team Canada.

Im a habs fan, and i don't think Subban was a bad teammates or every rumors we hear about him, i think it is journalist drama.

I strongly believe that the habs brass were ready to go with Subban for the next 5-6 years, but Weber has been made available, and they chosed him over PK.

This trade could be ''bad'' for us in the 7-8 years for sure. It could even be bad as soon as next year as PK tend to rebound big-time and thrive in controversy and when he has the spotlight.

I also feel like this trade could be a total slam dunk cause i never felt the habs having a strong line-up like that one.

 

[ottawa]

I love how it's mostly the predators fans doing damage control for Habs fans lol. You guys should come to the Habs board and do some damage control there too.

 

[mashedpotato]

Still lol'ing at this trade.

Damage control aside, it's still pretty bad from MTL.

 

[optimus2861]

I disagree with that. The Roy trade sent the team down a dark path of mediocrity because they didn't get anything of significance in return.

Incorrect. The Canadiens were already on the path to mediocrity and had been for some time before Roy was finally traded. The signs were there looking all the way back to 1979 when Scotty Bowman, fresh off four consecutive Stanley Cup championships, gets passed over for the GM position in favour of mediocre Irving Grundman, who never held a job in hockey again after his few middling years with the Canadiens. You can just start connecting dots all the way down through the years after that.

• Hiring a string of mediocre coaches up until Pat Burns (note: Lemaire was not in the 80s the coach he became later so it's not unfair to label his brief Montreal stint as mediocre)
• Pissing Lafleur off to the point that he snap-retired.
• Dealing Chelios away for an over-the-hill Savard.
• Dumping then-captain Carbonneau for trash-heap Montgomery.
• Stabbing both Muller & Keane in the backs with surprise trades after they had become captain.
• Hiring grotesquely unqualified Houle & Tremblay for the top jobs after sacking Savard & Demers in 95.
• Siding with the two fools over Roy barely 8 weeks later.
• A plethora of lateral or just plain backwards trades, no matter who the GM.
• A completely lost ~15 year span from 95-10 where the franchise achieved absolutely nothing of consequence, save a few 'lightning in a bottle' moments like Theodore's Hart+Vezina season, wasting the entire prime of Saku Koivu's career in the process.
• Molson's spineless cave-in to the 'protests' over Randy Cunneyworth's interim coaching job, effectively foreclosing any anglo candidates from the Canadiens top jobs for the foreseeable future.
• Re-hiring the re-tread loser Therrien as coach.
• Bergevin consistently lowballing expectations, treating fans & journalists with secrecy and even contempt, while continually demonstrating he has no real plan to develop the Canadiens other than satisfy the whims of his loser coach and expect his all-world goalie to bail him out.
• And now of course the Subban trade. Which was my last ****ing straw with the Habs.

The Canadiens are the new Maple Leafs. Hopelessly addicted fanbase, therefore no financial pressure on the owner to change anything, not that the owner has demonstrated any understanding of how to manage a hockey team anyway. Milk past glory for all its worth, force all players to conform to a certain "mould" or be banished, impose handicaps on their key management positions for language reasons that 29 (soon to be 30) other teams won't do. Blah blah blah.

They'll rot in mediocrity for an eternity. Their Cup drought probably isn't half finished yet.

 

[Burke the Legend]

Shea Weber is still one of the best Dman in the league and if Montreal can get it together this could turn out to be a fair trade. If not this could be Roy 2.0 I could see price walking if they dont get their act together in the next 2 years and then it's 20 years mediocrity like after Roy. Honestly it would have been less risky to clean up management/coaching then to trade Subban. But I could see why Montreal management would rather trade their franchise/Norris defensemen than fire themselves.

Nothing against Montreal l, I hope this works out for them.

Roy was traded for spare parts. Weber is a peer of Subban as an all-star D-men. The downside is just more medium term risk of age decline.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Similar to the Roy trade in some respects.
A fan favourite player with lots of personality traded by a Montreal GM that likely won't have a job in a year or two. Houle and Bergevin have some similarities.
As well Therrien is likely gone soon just like Mario Tremblay after the Roy trade.

 

[Jigger77]

Roy almost singlehandedly carried the team to two Stanley Cup championships they had no business winning. Not exactly similar. It's closer to the Chelios trade imo. Except the guy we're getting back is as good as Subban (better in my opinion but you know what they say about those) and I think Chelios is the better/higher team impact player than Subban. Also he's able to immediately step in and eat those so important #1 D minutes, I don't recall what was the replacement plan for Chelly at the time, though they probably traded him away too lol. Anyway I still think Nashville loses the trade despite popular opinion but fans there will love Subban. He's quite a show that for sure. And I don't agree at all that this is in any shape comparable to the Houle era. I think we're headed in the right direction since Bergy took over. He's got my vote of confidence anyway.

 

[19Yzerman19]

^ The Roy trade was certainly much worse even at the time. As you break down makes it clear. In terms of impact though I meant more how the Roy trade sent Montreal down a path towards mediocrity. I think their is a sizable chance that the Subban trade could do the same when we look back in 10 years. Which makes it too risky imo.

they had won 2 cups already with Roy, what have they ever won with Subban?

 

[MrFunnyWobbl]

You guys are still talking about this?

Dont you have pokemon to catch!!!!

 

[1909]

Similar to the Roy trade in some respects.
A fan favourite player with lots of personality traded by a Montreal GM that likely won't have a job in a year or two. Houle and Bergevin have some similarities.
As well Therrien is likely gone soon just like Mario Tremblay after the Roy trade.

Not quite the same. Roy was reverred because he won two Cups (something Subban has not done). Subban was the fan's favourite because of his flashy play, and his off ice interaction with fans and the community. He started a foundation (10 million $), was great with kids, started to speak some French, and was the perfect amabassdor to attract new fans for which hockey was not their favourite sport at all.

Only the results next season (s) will dictate if Therrien will be gone or not. The guy brought the habs from dead last before the lockout, to a top team in the East in his first three seasons. The team was having a record year in the first two months last season before losing Price for good, and Gallagher for a fair stretch.

The team started losing and losing. And Subban was not a difference maker to stop the slide. He was self satisfied with his own stats, and didn't seem to be bothered or fazed out by the numerous losses. That is part of the reasons he was traded. He did not care for the TEAM, even if he was the best paid Habs player, ever.