MSG permit extension hits a major snag

[patnyrnyg]

Can't the Rangers and Knicks play at Izod for 3 or 4 years while MSG V is built?

I believe Izod is currently being rented by a movie/tv studio. Not sure of the details or what renovations have been done inside.

If absolutely necessary, can't see them going somewhere temporarily for 3-4 years. 1 year maybe. If they went to Barclays/Nassau, it would suck for the STH from NJ. If they went to Izod or Prudential would suck for the STH from LI, Fairfield.

If anything, they would have to build the new MSG, and changes to Penn Station would have to wait. They could have solved this 15+ years ago, but city and state didnt want to play nice.

 

[Foxy]

I listened to the MSG and Rail portions of the hearing from the other day and get the sense that moving MSG is 100% off the table. No one from Amtrak or the MTA even argued for moving it at the hearing. The rail agencies want the permit renewal to include an agreement from MSG that enables them to make major improvements to Penn. They want to build a midblock train hall, between 2penn and the garden, and for contributions proportionate to benefits that MSG will receive from the improvements. I'm assuming that means they want the midblock that MSG owns for free and a few other concessions like moving the HVAC and electric vault.

MSG was arguing for a permit in perpetuity, claiming all the other large venues in the city have been granted one, also that a permit in perpetuity would be beneficial for the MTA because it allows them to spend the money on what they have now, rather then invest a little at a time with the idea that they will get the whole block eventually.

If they do come to a major deal MSG likely gives up the midblock and some of the other concessions, in return MSG gets a new 50 year permit. Assuming they don't come to a major agreement, most likely outcome is a 5 or 10 year renewal and we do this all again in a few years.

 

[Boris Zubov]

I listened to the MSG and Rail portions of the hearing from the other day and get the sense that moving MSG is 100% off the table. No one from Amtrak or the MTA even argued for removing it at the hearing. The rail agency's want the permit renewal to include an agreement from MSG that enables them to make major improvements to Penn. They want to build a midblock train hall, between 2penn and the garden, and for contributions proportionate to benefits that MSG will receive from the improvements. I'm assuming that means they want the midblock MSG owns for free and a few other concessions like moving the HVAC and electric vault.

MSG was arguing for a permit in perpetuity, claiming all the other large venues in the city have been granted one, also that a permit in perpetuity would be beneficial for the MTA because it allows them to spend the money on what they have now, rather then invest a little at a time with the idea that they will get the whole block eventually.

If they do come to a major deal MSG likely gives up the midblock and some of the other concessions, in return MSG gets a new 50 year permit. Assuming they don't come to a major agreement, most likely outcome is a 5 or 10 year renewal and we do this all again in a few years.

Thanks for the summary

 

[DaBadGuy7]

 

[BKIslandersFan]

If Jets and Giants can play in East Rutherford, Rangers and Knicks can play in Newark.

 

[Voight]

I am flabbergasted that Dolan has painted himself into a corner.

He was given 10 years to figure out a solution but he believes that Madison Sq Garden is more important than Pennsylvania Station.

It seems ludicrous to even suggest this but the Rangers and Knicks could be facing playing at MSG with only 2500 seats...........

Are you seriously surprised?

Dolan is a moron and thinks hes Gods gift to humanity. Especially when it comes to his (poor) ownership of his sports teams (moreso the Knicks).

 

[Voight]

True, but he'll die before he leaves Manhattan.

Not only are the Rangers ans Knicks identities tied to Manhattan (as ar their core fan base), he makes a mint on all the concerts that come through MSG. He wouldn't get nearly as many non sports dates in another borough or in Jersey

Seriously. I believe its the most booked venue in the world or at least top 5.

 

[rojac]

When something real happens, there'll be an appropriate news story. Until then, it's probably best to just look anything fr om either side as just posturing.

 

[madhi19]

I am flabbergasted that Dolan has painted himself into a corner.

He was given 10 years to figure out a solution but he believes that Madison Sq Garden is more important than Pennsylvania Station.

It seems ludicrous to even suggest this but the Rangers and Knicks could be facing playing at MSG with only 2500 seats...........

This is the new NHL anything is possible... loll

 

[KevFu]

While there are different departments in NYC with different responsibilities, they are all under the guise of the NYC government. Their employees are all paid from the NYC Treasury. Different on Long Island. For example, Nassau County controls the police department. Some of the incorporated villages and towns within Nassau County do have their own police force, but most of the County is patroled by the NCPD. The Town of Hempstead is a completely different government. Yes, they are within Nassau County, but they are not on the same hierarchy. There is also The Town of Oyster Bay, and the Town of North Hempstead all within Nassau County. Nassau Coliseum was in the confines of The Town of Hempstead. The Town of Hempstead of example handles sanitation within its borders. Nassau County has nothing to do with it. Each also run public parks, pools, beaches for example as well. At a Town of Hempstead pool, you will not see lifeguards employed by Nassau County and vice versa.

The simplest way of explaining it is that there is simply one less "layer" of government for NYC.

The Islanders had to deal with TOWN of Hempstead, and Nassau COUNTY trying to get projects done, so they switched from Hempstead to Elmont and to get a project done with those two layers of government.

COUNTY government does not exist for the five boroughs of New York City. So Dolan is only dealing with the NYC government, not Manhattan AND New York County.

The consolidation of the five boroughs into the unified New York City government in 1898 was one of the smartest maneuvers in the history of government. (There are county courts in different boroughs, but that's it).

 

[CTHabsfan]

I'm surprised Ned Lamont hasn't heard of this and suggested moving the Rangers and Knicks to Hartford.

 

[WaW]

Move them to East Rutherford, NJ, and add them to that lawsuit that random dude filed against the Giants and Jets for calling themselves "New York" teams.

 

[Chet Manley]

I've always thought it was really cool that an arena has a subway station under it. Too bad we can't see something like that with modern engineering. Like how high up could a 18 000 seat venue go now?

 

[buffa dud]

And who's going to pay to move MSG?

At this rate, LIV.

 

[rsteen]

I've always thought it was really cool that an arena has a subway station under it. Too bad we can't see something like that with modern engineering. Like how high up could a 18 000 seat venue go now?

TD Garden is on top of a rail station as well.

 

[jkrdevil]

TD Garden is on top of a rail station as well.

So is Washington’s arena.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

So is Washington’s arena.

So does Barclays Center, which was perfect for me as an Islanders fan when they were there.

 

[aqib]

The simplest way of explaining it is that there is simply one less "layer" of government for NYC.

The Islanders had to deal with TOWN of Hempstead, and Nassau COUNTY trying to get projects done, so they switched from Hempstead to Elmont and to get a project done with those two layers of government.

COUNTY government does not exist for the five boroughs of New York City. So Dolan is only dealing with the NYC government, not Manhattan AND New York County.

The consolidation of the five boroughs into the unified New York City government in 1898 was one of the smartest maneuvers in the history of government. (There are county courts in different boroughs, but that's it).

Lots of Brooklynites are still mad about that. They refer to it as "The Mistake of 1898" in 1998 when they had the anniversary of the unification the NY Times magazine did a story on it that said that Brooklyn might have been better off on its own.

 

[KevFu]

And who's going to pay to move MSG?

They should "move" Madison Square Garden to Madison Square.

 

[Kane One]

They should "move" Madison Square Garden to Madison Square.

Yes. Also move UBS Arena to Switzerland.

 

[Fenway]

TD Garden is on top of a rail station as well.

The old Boston Garden was actually financed by the Boston and Maine Railroad in 1928.

 

[93LEAFS]

TD Garden is on top of a rail station as well.

So is Washington’s arena.

Prior to the MLSE merger, the Leafs almost built their own arena right above Union Station, whereas the Raptors arena would connect to Union by adding maybe 20 feet of sheltered atrium at the old Canada Post facility. Thankfully, Raps and Leafs merged stopping us from probably having the most insane Arena set up in North America.a

I would hope a ton of arenas were built either right next to or on the primary rail hub for their cities. It seems to be the best set-up for local commuters and getting people in by rail for games.

edit:

Arena Wars: How the race for a new home brought the Leafs and Raptors together

The origin story of MLSE goes back to the forgotten arena wars of the late '90s between the iconic Maple Leafs and upstart Raptors.

theathletic.com

In April 1997, the Maple Leafs announced they were conducting a feasibility report to explore the construction of an arena on top of Union Station, mere steps from the Air Canada Centre site. The land was owned by the City of Toronto and railways, so this was not a statement of intent. But it was a clear sign that the Leafs were not going to simply fall in line with Slaight and Peddie. The Leafs’ plan didn’t even acknowledge the Raptors, instead proposing the post building where the Air Canada Centre would sit be turned into a glorified bus depot.

“The Union Station one was an incredible option,” Anselmi said. “It was an extraordinary idea. It was going to be extraordinarily expensive.”

Peddie fought the Leafs’ plan loudly in the press, arguing placing two new arenas next door to one another would create congestion and logistical nightmares.

“That’s when I had to go on the attack, because this was nuts,” Peddie said. “You’re gonna build an arena, I think my quote in the newspaper was, a 9-iron away from Air Canada Centre? You see Union Station, even to this day (almost) 25 years later, it’s not finished. And they were gonna build it on top of Union Station. It was a completely ludicrous idea. I spoke out. It didn’t help my relationship with Larry and Steve at all.”

 

[Fenway]

Lots of Brooklynites are still mad about that. They refer to it as "The Mistake of 1898" in 1998 when they had the anniversary of the unification the NY Times magazine did a story on it that said that Brooklyn might have been better off on its own.

Brooklyn was certainly taken care of when the NYC Subway was built out but Queens was neglected by comparison.

Robert Moses had no use for Brooklyn and that became clear when the Dodgers wanted to move to roughly where Barclays Arena is today. He told O'Malley it would be better to move to Queens where Shea Stadium was built and we all know what happened.

 

[oknazevad]

Prior to the MLSE merger, the Leafs almost built their own arena right above Union Station, whereas the Raptors arena would connect to Union by adding maybe 20 feet of sheltered atrium at the old Canada Post facility. Thankfully, Raps and Leafs merged stopping us from probably having the most insane Arena set up in North America.a

I would hope a ton of arenas were built either right next to or on the primary rail hub for their cities. It seems to be the best set-up for local commuters and getting people in by rail for games.

edit:

Arena Wars: How the race for a new home brought the Leafs and Raptors together

The origin story of MLSE goes back to the forgotten arena wars of the late '90s between the iconic Maple Leafs and upstart Raptors.

theathletic.com

I don't think anyone disagrees with the concept of robust rail access to arenas. Heck, with the opening of UBS, all the major league sports indoor arenas in the Boston–Washington corridor are either proximate to a major rail hub, or a short connecting train ride away.

TD: atop North Station
UBS: Belmont Park station for trains to points west, and Elmont station along the LIRR main line.
MSG: atop Penn Station
Prudential: A two-block walk to Newark Penn Station (which can be traversed by enclosed pedestrian bridges).
Wells Fargo: End of the Broad Street subway running to Center City (and if the 76ers arena plan does go through, it would be adjacent to Jefferson Station at Market East)
Capital One: Atop the Gallery Place/Chinatown station (a major transfer station) two stops from Union Station.

The issue here is that MSG is actively impeding the functioning of the rail station, unlike all the others.

(Also, am I the only one that finds it funny that all of the aforementioned arenas are name sponsored by banks. Even MSG is "Madison Square Garden presented by Chase" these days.)

 

[Fenway]

I don't think anyone disagrees with the concept of robust rail access to arenas. Heck, with the opening of UBS, all the major league sports indoor arenas in the Boston–Washington corridor are either proximate to a major rail hub, or a short connecting train ride away.

TD: atop North Station
UBS: Belmont Park station for trains to points west, and Elmont station along the LIRR main line.
MSG: atop Penn Station
Prudential: A two-block walk to Newark Penn Station (which can be traversed by enclosed pedestrian bridges).
Wells Fargo: End of the Broad Street subway running to Center City (and if the 76ers arena plan does go through, it would be adjacent to Jefferson Station at Market East)
Capital One: Atop the Gallery Place/Chinatown station (a major transfer station) two stops from Union Station.

The issue here is that MSG is actively impeding the functioning of the rail station, unlike all the others.

(Also, am I the only one that finds it funny that all of the aforementioned arenas are name sponsored by banks. Even MSG is "Madison Square Garden presented by Chase" these days.)

FULL DISCLOSURE - I am a long-time friend of a woman who is Jim Dolan's sister and and they are estranged to put it kindly.

She told me that her brother firmly believes MSG is more important to New York than Penn Station.

Everything goes back to 1960 when it was decided to move MSG to Penn Station from 8th Av and 50th St and the leases of who got what became complicated. The one thing they were certain of didn't happen - that passenger railroads would cease to exist. That was a major miscalulation.

Dolan was given a 10 year extension to figure out a plan and here we are.

My friend told me her brother came to despise the LIRR when they were younger growing up in Oyster Bay and that clouds his thinking.