Speculation: Moving up in the 2024 draft

[SOLR]

You can't be serious?

Are you suggesting that Caufield, in his D1-D4 seasons, from the age 19-23, is the "cause" of the Habs league bottom scoring?

This despite being the 5th highest scorer from his draft class?

His ability to produce is despite the Habs being bottom 5 in scoring.

On top of that, if we look beyond scoring to team performance, in his rookie taste of the NHL, he was 3rd in playoff scoring on a team that reached the NHL finals... Establishing that he can be an impactful contributor to a cup finals team at 19 is about as unique a demonstration a player can provide.

Your reasoning is pretty weak here.

He's on the team, so, from a first-principles perspective, he is part of the cause. This seems like simple logic.

I'm not saying he's not going to produce points. I'm saying that, on balance, he will lose too much against his peers' first-line opponents in key moments (those peers are the first lines of the top 10-16 teams). That's the contract he's signed to—a first-liner contract. But he's a second-liner in deployment.

This is utter nonsense. "Babysitting"?

On the one extreme, we have @Lafleurs Guy who tried to argue that Caufield was carrying Suzuki, and now on the other extreme, we get this silliness.

It's a team game.
Caufield has demonstrated, at every level including the NHL, that he can be an effective scorer on a winning team.

The Habs team weakness the past few years is not a reflection of his limitations... No more than the Pens being a league basement team in Crosby's rookie season, or the oilers in McD's, Avs in Mack's, etc etc.

Is Bedard the cause of the Hawks ineptitude? We're Foligno and Hall worse off for "babysitting" him?

I didn't talk about his scoring abilities. I talked specifically about how Suzuki needs to cover Caufield defensively. Bedard already produces a lot more than Caufield. against peers and yes Foligno/Hall are babysitting him (??? - that's apparent to everybody but you?). On balance is what matters.

You are so offended now you will give me all the examples of producing players in basement teams you can find as if they are relevant examples. Are you comparing Caufield to Crosby and McDavid? I guess I should expect to be in the Stanley Cup final next year with an Art Ross trophy for Caufield (not).

At 7M$ a year there is not a GM in the league that would "pump and dump" Marner...

I don't think we need to go any further. I completely disagree with your take and don't see any merit to your reasoning.

Enjoy hoping for something that has zero chance of happening since KH isn't completely disconnected from reality.

Hmm, yeah, they would because they could get more assets back if he didn't fit the big picture. It's about winning, not "winning while having X player on the team". Who gives a shit if Caufield is on the team when we win the cup? What's important to you? I'll tell you what is important to me: I want a team that can win playoff games against the best opposition. They don't have to be better than their opposition talent-wise, Danault was certainly not a 1st liner, but they have to beat the opposition like Danault did beat Matthews.

"Disconnected from reality" now you are crossing into personal attacks. Free yourself from having to win arguments, and you'll be much happier. Learn to happily disagree.

Caufield is not the perfect first-liner. He was always borderline defensively (still is), which is why he was drafted 15th and not 2nd overall. Would you trade Caufield for Svechnikov tomorrow? Yes you would, that's what I'm talking about, if Caufield scores 40 next year, I want to trade him for an important player. Svechnikov on a loaded Carolina team seems to be the only one that can change the series for them against the Rangers. It's by collecting that kind of player that you win cups. Now we are not going to get Svechnikov with Caufield, but we could get a pick that would get us a young Svechnikov for a 40 goals Caufield, or we could get another type of player more important than Caufield (a young Pasta or Point).

Roy seems to have that X-factor (not proven yet at the NHL level).

 

[McGees]

If Demidov and Lindstrom are gone - would you trade down with CGY knowing they'd want Iggy - in exchange for 9th + Vancouver's 1st?
Would give them 2 late firsts to try and get back into the teens and draft while drafting Sennecke/Catton/Helenius at 9.

 

[Runner77]

If Demidov and Lindstrom are gone - would you trade down with CGY knowing they'd want Iggy - in exchange for 9th + Vancouver's 1st?
Would give them 2 late firsts to try and get back into the teens and draft while drafting Sennecke/Catton/Helenius at 9.

I’d take Iggy. I’d expect a massive overpay to trade the 5th, that would have to include a Dach-like prospect (minus the injury record).

If all it takes to move from 9th to 5th is adding a late first, then the Habs should be able to move to the 4th spot by paying a similar price — which would never happen.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

He's on the team, so, from a first-principles perspective, he is part of the cause. This seems like simple logic.

I'm not saying he's not going to produce points. I'm saying that, on balance, he will lose too much against his peers' first-line opponents in key moments (those peers are the first lines of the top 10-16 teams). That's the contract he's signed to—a first-liner contract. But he's a second-liner in deployment.



I didn't talk about his scoring abilities. I talked specifically about how Suzuki needs to cover Caufield defensively. Bedard already produces a lot more than Caufield. against peers and yes Foligno/Hall are babysitting him (??? - that's apparent to everybody but you?). On balance is what matters.

You are so offended now you will give me all the examples of producing players in basement teams you can find as if they are relevant examples. Are you comparing Caufield to Crosby and McDavid? I guess I should expect to be in the Stanley Cup final next year with an Art Ross trophy for Caufield (not).



Hmm, yeah, they would because they could get more assets back if he didn't fit the big picture. It's about winning, not "winning while having X player on the team". Who gives a shit if Caufield is on the team when we win the cup? What's important to you? I'll tell you what is important to me: I want a team that can win playoff games against the best opposition. They don't have to be better than their opposition talent-wise, Danault was certainly not a 1st liner, but they have to beat the opposition like Danault did beat Matthews.

"Disconnected from reality" now you are crossing into personal attacks. Free yourself from having to win arguments, and you'll be much happier. Learn to happily disagree.

Caufield is not the perfect first-liner. He was always borderline defensively (still is), which is why he was drafted 15th and not 2nd overall. Would you trade Caufield for Svechnikov tomorrow? Yes you would, that's what I'm talking about, if Caufield scores 40 next year, I want to trade him for an important player. Svechnikov on a loaded Carolina team seems to be the only one that can change the series for them against the Rangers. It's by collecting that kind of player that you win cups. Now we are not going to get Svechnikov with Caufield, but we could get a pick that would get us a young Svechnikov for a 40 goals Caufield, or we could get another type of player more important than Caufield (a young Pasta or Point).

Roy seems to have that X-factor (not proven yet at the NHL level).

Caufield may lose some puck battles in the offensive zone but he’s the most adept on that line at stealing pucks. He’s really, really good at stripping players off the puck and transitioning to offense. That’s extremely beneficial to his linemates.

He’ll always have limitations due to his size. He does get outmuscled sometimes but you have to take the good with the bad. His season should’ve been awesome but shooting percentage got in the way. I still think he has the potential to be one of the best goalscorers in the league.

He put up 48 goals in his first 82 games under MSL. That’s first line production. And under normal circumstances he’d have betters it last year. He’s also still so young and will likely improve. I wouldn’t trade away a guy with that kind of potential.

 

[SOLR]

Caufield may lose some puck battles in the offensive zone but he’s the most adept on that line at stealing pucks. He’s really, really good at stripping players off the puck and transitioning to offense. That’s extremely beneficial to his linemates.

He’ll always have limitations due to his size. He does get outmuscled sometimes but you have to take the good with the bad. His season should’ve been awesome but shooting percentage got in the way. I still think he has the potential to be one of the best goalscorers in the league.

I don't completely disagree, but it remains to be seen what that all comes to in the playoffs. Particularly because we are missing a few top-six players, and it's about balance. My feeling is it will be hard to compensate for his lack of muscle at some level of competition (without slowing him down, if goes toward the Gallagher build)

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I don't completely disagree, but it remains to be seen what that all comes to in the playoffs. Particularly because we are missing a few top-six players, and it's about balance. My feeling is it will be hard to compensate for his lack of muscle at some level of competition (without slowing him down, if goes toward the Gallagher build)

Not worried at all about his postseason play. There’s a ton of fight in that little dog. He’s not a Mitch Marner who shies away to the perimeter. CC has never been afraid to get his nose dirty. Moreover (unlike Marner) he loves to shoot.

48 in 82 at such a young age is proof enough for me that he at least has elite scoring potential. Last year should’ve been a career year but… Hopefully his shoulder is healed and it happens for him next year. He’s got a lot of flash to go with his scoring ability and his passing skills continue to improve.

His size limitations held him back in the draft but in a redraft there’s zero doubt he goes much higher if it were held now. To me, his draft placement isn’t a reflection of his game today, it’s a reflection of how badly he’s been underestimated his whole career. He has the highest goal per game in that draft and is second in goals overall. 5th in points and I’m pretty sure he’ll climb that list this year.

And no, I would not trade him for Svechnikov today. Maybe my opinion will change in the future but based on what we know now I think CC can be one of the best goal scorers in the league.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Not worried at all about his postseason play. There’s a ton of fight in that little dog. He’s not a Mitch Marner who shies away to the perimeter. CC has never been afraid to get his nose dirty. Moreover (unlike Marner) he loves to shoot.

48 in 82 at such a young age is proof enough for me that he at least has elite scoring potential. Last year should’ve been a career year but… Hopefully his shoulder is healed and it happens for him next year. He’s got a lot of flash to go with his scoring ability and his passing skills continue to improve.

His size limitations held him back in the draft but in a redraft there’s zero doubt he goes much higher if it were held now. To me, his draft placement isn’t a reflection of his game today, it’s a reflection of how badly he’s been underestimated his whole career. He has the highest goal per game in that draft and is second in goals overall. 5th in points and I’m pretty sure he’ll climb that list this year.

And no, I would not trade him for Svechnikov today. Maybe my opinion will change in the future but based on what we know now I think CC can be one of the best goal scorers in the league.

So do you disagree with the label of 'second line winger'?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

So do you disagree with the label of 'second line winger'?

I think 48 in 82 is a first line winger for sure. I think his play last year was that of a first line winger but his results were… borderline. 30 goals is good but not great. He has got some proving to do.

The underlying numbers indicate to me that he will be not just a first liner but an an elite winger. 300+ shots is elite. You SHOULD wind up with at least 40 goals doing that and have a decent shot at 50. He’s got to prove that he’s not going to have another messed up season where he has one of the worst shooting percentages in the league for top six players. I suspect that was a fluke but we still have to see it.

All that being said, I’d be fine if he’s with Dach next year. I think he’ll put up numbers regardless. Splitting him and Suzuki is fine. It would give Dach a weapon and give us two good lines. Forsberg and Sakic were on separate lines but I don’t think anyone would call either a second liner. Same with Crosby Malkin. So yeah, I think he’s a first line winger wherever he plays but he’s got some pressure on him to prove it this year.

 

[SOLR]

And no, I would not trade him for Svechnikov today. Maybe my opinion will change in the future but based on what we know now I think CC can be one of the best goal scorers in the league.

Yeah we can't be aligned on Svechnikov but that's ok. I think he's one of the best player in the NHL as soon as the playoffs start.

Looks like Lafreniere is turning the corner and becoming Mr big moment as he was in juniors.

 

[yianik]

Guhle has been playing top pair minutes and has looked good. My belief is that he has reigned in his hitting and offensive play to be more focused on D. Not saying he is a hitting and scoring machine if he went off leash, just that I think he is has a bit more there than we are seeing. He looks like a no.2 D man and he is the only one that so far to me is showing better than a no.4 talent.

If you saw that intermission discussion of Jacob Trouba , that's how I'm seeing Guhle at this point.

We can't afford to move Guhle. My guess is Guhle would be attractive to Verbeek, but I wouldn't move him for Zegras.

 

[bleuetbio]

If Demidov and Lindstrom are gone - would you trade down with CGY knowing they'd want Iggy - in exchange for 9th + Vancouver's 1st?
Would give them 2 late firsts to try and get back into the teens and draft while drafting Sennecke/Catton/Helenius at 9.

I would consider a trade down to 9 only if that Vancouver's pick bring a deal to move up our Winnipeg's pick to the top 12

 

[Miller Time]

He's on the team, so, from a first-principles perspective, he is part of the cause. This seems like simple logic.

So are Suzuki & Slaf.

Your argument was that CC was the cause, not that all players were the cause.

Simple logic indeed.

I'm not saying he's not going to produce points. I'm saying that, on balance, he will lose too much against his peers' first-line opponents in key moments (those peers are the first lines of the top 10-16 teams).

He proved this not to be the case through 4 playoff rounds. At 19.

That's the contract he's signed to—a first-liner contract. But he's a second-liner in deployment.

He signed a contract for what he will likely become, not what he was the day he signed it.

Id argue that he performed at a level that puts him well within the top 64 wingers in the NHL this past season, his first of an 8-year deal.

If you believe he's playing at a 2nd line level, curious where in the 65-128 of NHL wingers you'd place his impact last year?

Either way, relative to his draft class (& the one before him) he's clearly one of the top wingers from those age groups thus far. No reason to doubt he will continue to improve. No reason to doubt that he won't easily be a top 60 winger through most of his contract.

Roy has a much more to prove in the NHL before suggesting he's a lock to get to that level, let alone surpass CCs impact.

I didn't talk about his scoring abilities. I talked specifically about how Suzuki needs to cover Caufield defensively. Bedard already produces a lot more than Caufield. against peers and yes Foligno/Hall are babysitting him (??? - that's apparent to everybody but you?). On balance is what matters.

Funny, I did and you replied to me... So why are you shifting the goal post?

Clearly you have a very fluid definition of "babysitting". The context you implied for Slaf/Suzuki was obviously different than the context of Foligno/hall... Apoarent to everyone but you?

Bedard. 22g (26g pace)
Caufield. 28g

You are so offended now you will give me all the examples of producing players in basement teams you can find as if they are relevant examples. Are you comparing Caufield to Crosby and McDavid? I guess I should expect to be in the Stanley Cup final next year with an Art Ross trophy for Caufield (not).

I'm not offended. Why would you suggest that?

You made a very poor argument, I pointed out why. No need to personalize things.

If Caufield was being paid 10M$ +, then absolutely you'd expect him to be among the best players in the league.

Pointing to the team's performance challenges as being caused by Caufield's play is a bad argument. No one player is the cause of a team's result...Even the absolute best player's in the league. Obvious to everyone except you apparently?

Hmm, yeah, they would because they could get more assets back if he didn't fit the big picture. It's about winning, not "winning while having X player on the team".

Indeed. And in a cap system, the relative value of a player vs their cap % is important.

Caufield has already shown he can play impactful hockey, on a playoff winning team (3of 4 rounds) at 19. He's 23 and signed to a deal that will likely make him one of the best cap values in the league through several years of it.

Only a terrible GM would "cash in" an appreciating asset with that kind of profile when such assets are a rarity.

The Avs won a cup in no small part because they had Mack @6M playing well above that... A contract he signed when he was a 50 pt producing 22yr old.

Context. Matters. Arguments made without considering the full context are weak, and in some cases, so flawed as to be utter nonsense... At least to everyone able to see past the immediate pts:cap hit lens.

Who gives a shit if Caufield is on the team when we win the cup? What's important to you?

It doesn't matter.

Building a roster well equipped to contend for several years, to increase the odds of winning a cup, is what's important to me.

That you would infer my rebuttal to your poor argument that I have some attachment to any individual player says more about your own bias than anything else.

I'll tell you what is important to me: I want a team that can win playoff games against the best opposition.

Like the Habs beating the Knights in the conference finals, with 19 year old Caufield playing a key role?

They don't have to be better than their opposition talent-wise, Danault was certainly not a 1st liner, but they have to beat the opposition like Danault did beat Matthews.

Danault didn't beat Matthews. The Habs beat the Laffs.

It would seem you both elevate and castigate individuals far too much... Again, team sport, not an individual one.

If we were talking goalies, there I might be swayed that 1 individual can at times put on such a dominating performance as to completely shift the outcome almost single handedly...

"Disconnected from reality" now you are crossing into personal attacks. Free yourself from having to win arguments, and you'll be much happier. Learn to happily disagree.

Sorry, my bad.

Should've been explicitly clear that your argument is disconnected from reality.

That I disagree with a person has no bearing on my happiness level. You'd do well to take your own advice before preaching about not personalizing. Hypocrisy crosses the line of poor integrity.

Perhaps you operate from the perspective that all arguments have merit. I don't.
Flat earthers offer arguments built on nonsense.
Some sports fans, similarly so. Is what it is.

Caufield is not the perfect first-liner.

Nice strawman. He might sit better in your garden than on a message board.

He was always borderline defensively (still is), which is why he was drafted 15th and not 2nd overall.

Yup.
In a team game, you don't need every player to do all things at the same level.

Caulfield is 2nd in goals scored from his draft class('19). 3rd from the combined 2018 & 2019 classes.

Goal scoring is one of the most unique, and valued skill sets in hockey for an NHL forward. Many more players can play great defensively than can be great goal scorers. I didn't think that was in doubt to any knowledgeable hockey enthusiast???

CC would be drafted much higher in a redraft. Would you argue against that

Ditto Joshua Roy, by the way.

Would you trade Caufield for Svechnikov tomorrow? Yes you would, that's what I'm talking about, if Caufield scores 40 next year, I want to trade him for an important player.

I think Svechnikov is a better overall player than Caufield. Agree with that.

Would I trade them 1:1 now... I likely would, but it's definitely not a slam dunk.
- Svech has battled injury issues in 3/6 seasons thus far.
- Svech has 5yrs left vs 7 for CC. The two extra years at that cap hit could be an incredible asset for a cup contender in the middle of their window.
- Performing well in the Montreal market is a factor that is always a concern. CC has proven to be a great fit & thrives in the environment.
- Caufield has great chemistry with the young core we are assembling and is already a well established leader in the group.

If it were EA sports, no hesitation pulling the trigger. In the real world?

Context. Matters.


If the Habs trade their first 40 goal scorer in decades the minute he reaches it

Svechnikov on a loaded Carolina team seems to be the only one that can change the series for them against the Rangers.

Recency bias is not a very compelling argument...

And again, team game. The over emphasis on 1 player is a fun media/fan narrative, but it's not very accurate.

McDavid & Draisatl are pacing many of Gretzky's incredible playoff scoring records. Gretz was winning cups as he set them, they haven't sniffed a finals yet. Overall roster matters.

It's by collecting that kind of player that you win cups. Now we are not going to get Svechnikov with Caufield, but we could get a pick that would get us a young Svechnikov for a 40 goals Caufield, or we could get another type of player more important than Caufield (a young Pasta or Point).

Bird in hand.

That you significantly under value the asset we have, for no grounded reason, is where we largely disagree.

You'd think as a Habs fan you'd know that a high pick is no guarantee. See Galch.A. Kotkaniemi.J.

If we could trade CC for a lock to draft a Celebrini? No brainer and, obviously, completely unrealistic.

Trading CC to hope that a Demidov or Lindstrom becomes a better player than CC is now, let alone at his peak? No thanks.

Roy seems to have that X-factor (not proven yet at the NHL level).

CC even more so, proven at the NHL playoffs level. This is where your argument shifts from curious to silly.

 

[Runner77]

So are Suzuki & Slaf.

Your argument was that CC was the cause, not that all players were the cause.

Simple logic indeed.


He proved this not to be the case through 4 playoff rounds. At 19.


He signed a contract for what he will likely become, not what he was the day he signed it.

Id argue that he performed at a level that puts him well within the top 64 wingers in the NHL this past season, his first of an 8-year deal.

If you believe he's playing at a 2nd line level, curious where in the 65-128 of NHL wingers you'd place his impact last year?

Either way, relative to his draft class (& the one before him) he's clearly one of the top wingers from those age groups thus far. No reason to doubt he will continue to improve. No reason to doubt that he won't easily be a top 60 winger through most of his contract.

Roy has a much more to prove in the NHL before suggesting he's a lock to get to that level, let alone surpass CCs impact.


Funny, I did and you replied to me... So why are you shifting the goal post?

Clearly you have a very fluid definition of "babysitting". The context you implied for Slaf/Suzuki was obviously different than the context of Foligno/hall... Apoarent to everyone but you?

Bedard. 22g (26g pace)
Caufield. 28g




I'm not offended. Why would you suggest that?

You made a very poor argument, I pointed out why. No need to personalize things.

If Caufield was being paid 10M$ +, then absolutely you'd expect him to be among the best players in the league.

Pointing to the team's performance challenges as being caused by Caufield's play is a bad argument. No one player is the cause of a team's result...Even the absolute best player's in the league. Obvious to everyone except you apparently?

Indeed. And in a cap system, the relative value of a player vs their cap % is important.

Caufield has already shown he can play impactful hockey, on a playoff winning team (3of 4 rounds) at 19. He's 23 and signed to a deal that will likely make him one of the best cap values in the league through several years of it.

Only a terrible GM would "cash in" an appreciating asset with that kind of profile when such assets are a rarity.

The Avs won a cup in no small part because they had Mack @6M playing well above that... A contract he signed when he was a 50 pt producing 22yr old.

Context. Matters. Arguments made without considering the full context are weak, and in some cases, so flawed as to be utter nonsense... At least to everyone able to see past the immediate pts:cap hit lens.

It doesn't matter.

Building a roster well equipped to contend for several years, to increase the odds of winning a cup, is what's important to me.

That you would infer my rebuttal to your poor argument that I have some attachment to any individual player says more about your own bias than anything else.


Like the Habs beating the Knights in the conference finals, with 19 year old Caufield playing a key role?

Danault didn't beat Matthews. The Habs beat the Laffs.

It would seem you both elevate and castigate individuals far too much... Again, team sport, not an individual one.

If we were talking goalies, there I might be swayed that 1 individual can at times put on such a dominating performance as to completely shift the outcome almost single handedly...


Sorry, my bad.

Should've been explicitly clear that your argument is disconnected from reality.

That I disagree with a person has no bearing on my happiness level. You'd do well to take your own advice before preaching about not personalizing. Hypocrisy crosses the line of poor integrity.

Perhaps you operate from the perspective that all arguments have merit. I don't.
Flat earthers offer arguments built on nonsense.
Some sports fans, similarly so. Is what it is.


Nice strawman. He might sit better in your garden than on a message board.


Yup.
In a team game, you don't need every player to do all things at the same level.

Caulfield is 2nd in goals scored from his draft class('19). 3rd from the combined 2018 & 2019 classes.

Goal scoring is one of the most unique, and valued skill sets in hockey for an NHL forward. Many more players can play great defensively than can be great goal scorers. I didn't think that was in doubt to any knowledgeable hockey enthusiast???

CC would be drafted much higher in a redraft. Would you argue against that

Ditto Joshua Roy, by the way.


I think Svechnikov is a better overall player than Caufield. Agree with that.

Would I trade them 1:1 now... I likely would, but it's definitely not a slam dunk.
- Svech has battled injury issues in 3/6 seasons thus far.
- Svech has 5yrs left vs 7 for CC. The two extra years at that cap hit could be an incredible asset for a cup contender in the middle of their window.
- Performing well in the Montreal market is a factor that is always a concern. CC has proven to be a great fit & thrives in the environment.
- Caufield has great chemistry with the young core we are assembling and is already a well established leader in the group.

If it were EA sports, no hesitation pulling the trigger. In the real world?

Context. Matters.


If the Habs trade their first 40 goal scorer in decades the minute he reaches it

Recency bias is not a very compelling argument...

And again, team game. The over emphasis on 1 player is a fun media/fan narrative, but it's not very accurate.

McDavid & Draisatl are pacing many of Gretzky's incredible playoff scoring records. Gretz was winning cups as he set them, they haven't sniffed a finals yet. Overall roster matters.


Bird in hand.

That you significantly under value the asset we have, for no grounded reason, is where we largely disagree.

You'd think as a Habs fan you'd know that a high pick is no guarantee. See Galch.A. Kotkaniemi.J.

If we could trade CC for a lock to draft a Celebrini? No brainer and, obviously, completely unrealistic.

Trading CC to hope that a Demidov or Lindstrom becomes a better player than CC is now, let alone at his peak? No thanks.




CC even more so, proven at the NHL playoffs level. This is where your argument shifts from curious to silly.

This is officially the longest rebuttal ever posted on this forum.

Not even @417 and @Kriss E had posting battles as lengthy as this and they stand out to me among the best back and forth, tit for tat epic exchanges.

You’ve invested time and energy doing that, you’re obviously passionate and you can write.

May I humbly suggest …



I have no affiliation with the above but thought your talents could fit the opportunity.

 

[Whitesnake]

If that's how it looks like...
Celebrini
Demidov
Lindstrom
Levshunov
.....

Still wonder why, if offered, we wouldn't trade down at 9 and something else as much as I LOVE Iginla and Flames want him...how bad would it be to drop at 9, and get antoher 1st round if you put your hands on Catton, MBN or even Buium. People will wake up in 5 years and have Buium top 5 in a redraft.

 

[Scriptor]

Trade Matheson for NJ’s 10th overall. He fits their needs.

Then try to trade the 10th OV + Jets pick (24-27th) for the 6th-7th or 8th OV.

Draft Lindstrom 5.
Draft Iginla 6-7-8.

We have all the forwards we need. Rebuild is done.

If Matheson could really be traded for the 10th OA pick, I wonder if Hughes wouldn't actually be tempted by that offer.

I guarantee you Hughes would bite on a deal offering #10 OA + Holtz for Matheson + WIN 1st rounder in 2024.

Holtz is a proven sharp-shooter who had succeeded playing against men in Europe. He has quickness and great lateral mobility and can play a good two-way game.

A change of scenery for the 22-year old winger and some inspiration from the Goal Whisperer, Marty St-Louis, could well do the trick. Holtz has too many different skills to be a bust, IMO.

On top of getting either Demidov, Lindstrom, or Iginla at #5 OA, Montreal would been a great position to complete the forward shopping after this early draft pick and Holtz at #10 OA, even without moving up in the draft, now that they had sacrificed the WIN pick to add Holtz to the mix.

It would be good to have two sharp shooters mentioned above -- one of Demidov, Lindstrom, or Iginla, plus Holtz -- and one of Catton, Helenius, Sennecke, or Eiserman that will definitely be available at #10, IMO.

We'd definitely be talking about one-stop shopping for missing talent up front, but development of the D would be more hazardous with Matheson gone, IMO.

Hughes would have to turn to the UFA front to add a 1st pairing RHD for the short term, to assist Guhle's development as a 1st pairing LHD and to prevent the need to rush Reinbacher and/or Mailloux into a greater role than they are currently ready to take on.

Otherwise, he could trade a lesser, younger D and one of the 5 3rd round picks we have over the next two drafts for an ageing RHD with an overpaid, short term contract as a stop gap for Reinbacher, for instance.

 

[Laboeuf]

Here is my top 5 choices in order:


Celebrini (he’s going SJ)
Lindstrom
Demidov
Levshunov
Iginla

We will get one of these guys.
I honestly don’t mind having both Reinbacher/Levshunov/Mailloux on the RD.

 

[Ryan O'Byrne]

Winnipeg 1st plus for trever zegras

 

[Gillings]

Montreal Iginla and Sennecke... If montreal can make that happen. Look Out.

But dont be surprised if they really like one of the defensman. I hope they pick up iginla or sennecke after?>>!???

 

[CHwest]

Not worried at all about his postseason play. There’s a ton of fight in that little dog. He’s not a Mitch Marner who shies away to the perimeter. CC has never been afraid to get his nose dirty. Moreover (unlike Marner) he loves to shoot.

48 in 82 at such a young age is proof enough for me that he at least has elite scoring potential. Last year should’ve been a career year but… Hopefully his shoulder is healed and it happens for him next year. He’s got a lot of flash to go with his scoring ability and his passing skills continue to improve.

His size limitations held him back in the draft but in a redraft there’s zero doubt he goes much higher if it were held now. To me, his draft placement isn’t a reflection of his game today, it’s a reflection of how badly he’s been underestimated his whole career. He has the highest goal per game in that draft and is second in goals overall. 5th in points and I’m pretty sure he’ll climb that list this year.

And no, I would not trade him for Svechnikov today. Maybe my opinion will change in the future but based on what we know now I think CC can be one of the best goal scorers in the league.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Not sure why this would freak you out. Similar point rates and CC scores more goals. I think in the long run CC will blow him away. Hopefully as soon as this year.

We’ll see.

 

[McGees]

So are Suzuki & Slaf.

Your argument was that CC was the cause, not that all players were the cause.

Simple logic indeed.


He proved this not to be the case through 4 playoff rounds. At 19.


He signed a contract for what he will likely become, not what he was the day he signed it.

Id argue that he performed at a level that puts him well within the top 64 wingers in the NHL this past season, his first of an 8-year deal.

If you believe he's playing at a 2nd line level, curious where in the 65-128 of NHL wingers you'd place his impact last year?

Either way, relative to his draft class (& the one before him) he's clearly one of the top wingers from those age groups thus far. No reason to doubt he will continue to improve. No reason to doubt that he won't easily be a top 60 winger through most of his contract.

Roy has a much more to prove in the NHL before suggesting he's a lock to get to that level, let alone surpass CCs impact.


Funny, I did and you replied to me... So why are you shifting the goal post?

Clearly you have a very fluid definition of "babysitting". The context you implied for Slaf/Suzuki was obviously different than the context of Foligno/hall... Apoarent to everyone but you?

Bedard. 22g (26g pace)
Caufield. 28g




I'm not offended. Why would you suggest that?

You made a very poor argument, I pointed out why. No need to personalize things.

If Caufield was being paid 10M$ +, then absolutely you'd expect him to be among the best players in the league.

Pointing to the team's performance challenges as being caused by Caufield's play is a bad argument. No one player is the cause of a team's result...Even the absolute best player's in the league. Obvious to everyone except you apparently?

Indeed. And in a cap system, the relative value of a player vs their cap % is important.

Caufield has already shown he can play impactful hockey, on a playoff winning team (3of 4 rounds) at 19. He's 23 and signed to a deal that will likely make him one of the best cap values in the league through several years of it.

Only a terrible GM would "cash in" an appreciating asset with that kind of profile when such assets are a rarity.

The Avs won a cup in no small part because they had Mack @6M playing well above that... A contract he signed when he was a 50 pt producing 22yr old.

Context. Matters. Arguments made without considering the full context are weak, and in some cases, so flawed as to be utter nonsense... At least to everyone able to see past the immediate pts:cap hit lens.

It doesn't matter.

Building a roster well equipped to contend for several years, to increase the odds of winning a cup, is what's important to me.

That you would infer my rebuttal to your poor argument that I have some attachment to any individual player says more about your own bias than anything else.


Like the Habs beating the Knights in the conference finals, with 19 year old Caufield playing a key role?

Danault didn't beat Matthews. The Habs beat the Laffs.

It would seem you both elevate and castigate individuals far too much... Again, team sport, not an individual one.

If we were talking goalies, there I might be swayed that 1 individual can at times put on such a dominating performance as to completely shift the outcome almost single handedly...


Sorry, my bad.

Should've been explicitly clear that your argument is disconnected from reality.

That I disagree with a person has no bearing on my happiness level. You'd do well to take your own advice before preaching about not personalizing. Hypocrisy crosses the line of poor integrity.

Perhaps you operate from the perspective that all arguments have merit. I don't.
Flat earthers offer arguments built on nonsense.
Some sports fans, similarly so. Is what it is.


Nice strawman. He might sit better in your garden than on a message board.


Yup.
In a team game, you don't need every player to do all things at the same level.

Caulfield is 2nd in goals scored from his draft class('19). 3rd from the combined 2018 & 2019 classes.

Goal scoring is one of the most unique, and valued skill sets in hockey for an NHL forward. Many more players can play great defensively than can be great goal scorers. I didn't think that was in doubt to any knowledgeable hockey enthusiast???

CC would be drafted much higher in a redraft. Would you argue against that

Ditto Joshua Roy, by the way.


I think Svechnikov is a better overall player than Caufield. Agree with that.

Would I trade them 1:1 now... I likely would, but it's definitely not a slam dunk.
- Svech has battled injury issues in 3/6 seasons thus far.
- Svech has 5yrs left vs 7 for CC. The two extra years at that cap hit could be an incredible asset for a cup contender in the middle of their window.
- Performing well in the Montreal market is a factor that is always a concern. CC has proven to be a great fit & thrives in the environment.
- Caufield has great chemistry with the young core we are assembling and is already a well established leader in the group.

If it were EA sports, no hesitation pulling the trigger. In the real world?

Context. Matters.


If the Habs trade their first 40 goal scorer in decades the minute he reaches it

Recency bias is not a very compelling argument...

And again, team game. The over emphasis on 1 player is a fun media/fan narrative, but it's not very accurate.

McDavid & Draisatl are pacing many of Gretzky's incredible playoff scoring records. Gretz was winning cups as he set them, they haven't sniffed a finals yet. Overall roster matters.


Bird in hand.

That you significantly under value the asset we have, for no grounded reason, is where we largely disagree.

You'd think as a Habs fan you'd know that a high pick is no guarantee. See Galch.A. Kotkaniemi.J.

If we could trade CC for a lock to draft a Celebrini? No brainer and, obviously, completely unrealistic.

Trading CC to hope that a Demidov or Lindstrom becomes a better player than CC is now, let alone at his peak? No thanks.




CC even more so, proven at the NHL playoffs level. This is where your argument shifts from curious to silly.

And the award for longest post ever goes to…

 

[CHwest]

Not sure why this would freak you out. Similar point rates and CC scores more goals. I think in the long run CC will blow him away. Hopefully as soon as this year.

We’ll see.

In my mind the very real difference is size, Svechnikov plays bigger and uses his size. In the playoffs I don't think they will be comparable. I hope your assessment is the correct one, but I don't see it. They are both coming into their own, we will see....

 

[Treb]

Montreal Iginla and Sennecke... If montreal can make that happen. Look Out.

But dont be surprised if they really like one of the defensman. I hope they pick up iginla or sennecke after?>>!???

If they pick a D, Iginla and Sennecke, that means they somehow got 3 top12 picks.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Winnipeg 1st plus for trever zegras

Won't work IMO. Wish it would.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

In my mind the very real difference is size, Svechnikov plays bigger and uses his size. In the playoffs I don't think they will be comparable. I hope your assessment is the correct one, but I don't see it. They are both coming into their own, we will see....

It’s not like Svechnikov has blown the doors off in the playoffs. He averages 57 over 82.