Most of our defensemen have regressed

[Rapala]

They need to give time to Reinbacher, Mailloux and Hutson to get more experience at AHL level. It's important to keep both Matheson and Savard .

I feel they aren't going anywhere and a better healthier forward group next season can only help the D as a whole.

 

[1909]

I feel they aren't going anywhere and a better healthier forward group next season can only help the D as a whole.

They certainly need better PK forwards. Stronger bottom six. Gally, Armia, Dvorak, Evans, RHP, Pezz, Ylonen are not the answers. We are far from Carbonneau-Gainey-McPhee-Jarvis-Nilan-Srkudland type of players.

 

[dcyhabs]

Yeah this shit is infuriating to look back on. When you look at the early results that players like Tinordi, Beaulieu, McCarron, etc had in the AHL/NHL at 20 or 21 there's no reason those guys couldn't have become decent depth guys. I just don't understand how you draft McCarron in the 1st round, watch him put up 38P in 58 AHL games at 20 as a rookie and then try to turn him into Shawn Thornton. It's f***ing crazy. Same with Tinordi, he looked like a solid bottom pair guy with like solid #4 upside and they just tried to turn him into a goon.

That was the most baffling one b/c we had Hal Gill on the team during that era and he was an effective player with a similar frame without being a goon.

Some of the many, many reasons you don’t want Lefebvre as your AHL head coach.

 

[abo9]

Its multi facetted.

The first and most obvious; our development/drafting has sucked under Bergevin, both for defensemen and forwards.

Second: Point 1 seems better now, but we're still in the early stages. Defensemen take a bit to develop.

Third: excitment and expectations. Easy to be excited about a Xhekaj initially, but the guy isnt all that good, reality hits.

Fourth: the player might be sheltered, have more energy early on (from excitment or whatever), or just be straight up lucky. Mete was suuuuper sheltered, being scotched to Weber's hip.

To be a bit more positive: We managed to do well with Petry, and now Matheson is playing his best hockey with us. Kovacevic is doing well.

 

[BaseballCoach]

They need to give time to Reinbacher, Mailloux and Hutson to get more experience at AHL level. It's important to keep both Matheson and Savard .

You make a good point and I agree by and large. Give the kids time to develop, and I would add Engstrom to make a foursome.

I would still trade 33yo Savard if offered a first-plus. Then, I'd look for an even older vet for 1-2 years to eat minutes and show some defensive tricks to whomever of Guhle Struble, Kovacevic, Harris, Xhekaj and Barron are with the club - total 8 including the new guy and Matheson, or 7 if we trade one of the young 6 for some talent up front.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Yeah this shit is infuriating to look back on. When you look at the early results that players like Tinordi, Beaulieu, McCarron, etc had in the AHL/NHL at 20 or 21 there's no reason those guys couldn't have become decent depth guys. I just don't understand how you draft McCarron in the 1st round, watch him put up 38P in 58 AHL games at 20 as a rookie and then try to turn him into Shawn Thornton. It's f***ing crazy. Same with Tinordi, he looked like a solid bottom pair guy with like solid #4 upside and they just tried to turn him into a goon.

That was the most baffling one b/c we had Hal Gill on the team during that era and he was an effective player with a similar frame without being a goon.

My take. Tinordi was a bad pick, and took up two picks actually. By the time of his D+2, I could already see he would bust. Bummer that so many good players were drafted after Jared. We could have had shots at TWO of them.

Beaulieu lacked hockey IQ. He hasn't made it anywhere despite strong straight-line skating when young. A risk at 18OA but the offensive potential maybe justified the pick at that rank. Can't win 'em all.

McCarron was a lost opportunity but our mistake was trying to force him into the C role. He had good potential for a 3rd line winger, IMO.

Fleury and Mete were mid round picks and never made it anywhere. I'm not too disappointed, again it's part of the draft game.

 

[Le Barron de HF]

Hence why you need to think long and hard before trading Savard or Matheson.

Boudreau said in his book it takes around 300 games for a defenseman to become consistent. We have not always given long leashes to the rookies as well for your previous regime examples.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

They just end up playing harder minutes as they get more responsibility, alot of players can't handle the jump up the lineup , its what seperates 5-6's from the oh so coveted 3-4's in the league.

 

[Whitesnake]

Hi,

I've noticed one strange thing happening in the last decade with our defensemen: after good debut, most of them have regressed afterwards.

I remember Beaulieu showed good flashes when he started, then somehow he couldn't blossom. With Fleury, after some first games, I thought that he would have a good future. Same thing with Juulsen, but I understand his eye injury had a big say on his development. Maybe, without that injury, he would probably follow the same path as Beaulieu and Fleury. As for Mete, I really liked his debut. He skated fast, he created chances, I thought we were lucky to have him. Then he doesn't pan out at all.

Fast forward to now. Xhekaj looked quite good last season, this season I don't like him at all as he took too much penalties and not reliable at defence. There's a good reason that he was sent to Laval, and played little minutes now. Guhle is about the same; he was good last year and early this year, then he started to decline in the last few months. Guhle isn't as efficient as before. It's the same thing as Harris. I like him less and less.

We even notice the same thing with Struble. In the first few games, I was really impressed. And lately he starts to make some mistakes.

Why is that ? Why most of our defencemen haven't progressed ? Is it because coach play them in a favorable situation when they just start and the look good ? As they get mature, they start to play against better opponents, then the get worse ?


In the future, I promise to myself that I won't get excited if Hutson, Mailloux or Engstrom play very well in their first few games. I'll be more conservative and hold my judgment. Let's see if they can play as good in the next seasons.

Some players didn,t regressed. They overplayed. Often happen to kids who are excited, play with energy, don't think as much, play limited minutes against lesser opponents etc....then comes responsability.....more icetime etc.....a return to mean has to be expected. But then, if the player is as good as he should....he should take his step from then and never look back.

Hence why you need to think long and hard before trading Savard or Matheson.

Boudreau said in his book it takes around 300 games for a defenseman to become consistent. We have not always given long leashes to the rookies as well for your previous regime examples.

It won't happen unless an insane deal comes our way.

Disclaimer: I don't see why teams would do INSANE deals for those 2 right now.

 

[Le Barron de HF]

Another component is coaching staff: Sly and Daigneault were bad hires. Brolieu gave more credit to Gonchar than those two which says a lot.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Another component is coaching staff: Sly and Daigneault were bad hires. Brolieu gave more credit to Gonchar than those two which says a lot.

Pretty sure just watching Markov did more for everybody on that team than any toe nail throwing from therriens staff and co did especially for PK

 

[schwang26]

It’s “team” defence that’s bad. You can’t only blame the defencemen. Yes, there’s certainly ways to improve, but the overall team defence is generally bad. They give up way too many shots and there’s constant turnovers in the neutral zone.

 

[26Mats]

Hi,

I've noticed one strange thing happening in the last decade with our defensemen: after good debut, most of them have regressed afterwards.

I remember Beaulieu showed good flashes when he started, then somehow he couldn't blossom. With Fleury, after some first games, I thought that he would have a good future. Same thing with Juulsen, but I understand his eye injury had a big say on his development. Maybe, without that injury, he would probably follow the same path as Beaulieu and Fleury. As for Mete, I really liked his debut. He skated fast, he created chances, I thought we were lucky to have him. Then he doesn't pan out at all.

Fast forward to now. Xhekaj looked quite good last season, this season I don't like him at all as he took too much penalties and not reliable at defence. There's a good reason that he was sent to Laval, and played little minutes now. Guhle is about the same; he was good last year and early this year, then he started to decline in the last few months. Guhle isn't as efficient as before. It's the same thing as Harris. I like him less and less.

We even notice the same thing with Struble. In the first few games, I was really impressed. And lately he starts to make some mistakes.

Why is that ? Why most of our defencemen haven't progressed ? Is it because coach play them in a favorable situation when they just start and the look good ? As they get mature, they start to play against better opponents, then the get worse ?


In the future, I promise to myself that I won't get excited if Hutson, Mailloux or Engstrom play very well in their first few games. I'll be more conservative and hold my judgment. Let's see if they can play as good in the next seasons.

Ranger fans are really down on Braden Schneider.

It really does take time to see if a dman can be consistently good. Subban, McDonagh, and Streit were 3 really good ones, until Subbsn fell off a cliff. Petry struggled at first then found his game. Delzotto was great at first, the sucked.

Hopefully MSL and,Robbidas can guide them in the right way. Perhaps, Harris, Xhekaj, and Barron could have used more time in the minors. I remember not being happy we missed out on claiming Valimaki waivers...

 

[WeThreeKings]

Playing defense and goaltender in the NHL are the hardest two positions and take the longest to grasp and get consistency.

They are not regressing, they are developing and this is not uncommon at all for young defenseman.

 

[MasterD]

Only Xhekaj and Harris have slightly regressed, but Strubble has stepped up.
Some of the forwards like Gallagher, Anderson and Harvey-Pinard have regressed.

Tell me about it, l'épinard is invisible out there.

 

[beowulf]

I like the generalization that most defencemen have regressed going back to Bealieu...come on now.

 

[LaP]

What happened in the past happened under a different management and coaching team so it is irrelevant to our current situation.

All our current young dmen are in their first two pro seasons and can't really be evaluated yet. Guhle, Harris, Xhekaj and Struble are all in their 1st or 2nd pro season. Can't really evaluate if there's progress or not until the end of next season.

 

[Leon Lucius Black]

It is very common for young defenseman to go through ups and downs in their first few seasons.

The difference now is we have a patient management group and coaching staff who are willing to live with those downs in hopes that it will help them in the future. This is different from our prior management group where if young defenseman struggled, they'd get replaced by plug veteran defenceman.

 

[StCaufield]

They certainly need better PK forwards. Stronger bottom six. Gally, Armia, Dvorak, Evans, RHP, Pezz, Ylonen are not the answers. We are far from Carbonneau-Gainey-McPhee-Jarvis-Nilan-Srkudland type of players.

I don’t mind Evans as a 4th liner but that’s about it. Good defensively and good at faceoffs. That’s where he belongs

 

[dcyhabs]

My take. Tinordi was a bad pick, and took up two picks actually. By the time of his D+2, I could already see he would bust. Bummer that so many good players were drafted after Jared. We could have had shots at TWO of them.

Beaulieu lacked hockey IQ. He hasn't made it anywhere despite strong straight-line skating when young. A risk at 18OA but the offensive potential maybe justified the pick at that rank. Can't win 'em all.

McCarron was a lost opportunity but our mistake was trying to force him into the C role. He had good potential for a 3rd line winger, IMO.

Fleury and Mete were mid round picks and never made it anywhere. I'm not too disappointed, again it's part of the draft game.

Tinordi wasn't a terrible pick at the time he was drafted but the league got faster. His "good for a big man" speed pretty quickly became too slow for the game. Lefebvre told him he had to fight if he wanted to have any chance, he got concussed by career goons with no NHL upside, and his game fell off a cliff. His skills mostly came with caveats, good skater for a big guy, good fighter for a skilled player... In his first camp he could defend, but he wasn't good with the puck.

McCarron needed skills coaches in his first year and only got them 3 or 4 years in. He also needed to concentrate on his skills and not worry much about gooning it up. He was a major reach, too.

Mete needed to go to the AHL and learn to shoot, among other things. His lack of size and physicality was always going to be a problem but he might have had hope with more offence and a shot. His development got trashed by going to the NHL and leaning on Weber for all the physical play and shots.

Leblanc was the poster boy for regression with the habs. He got the worst of Lefebvre in all ways and got worse and less motivated every year he was here. Hard to say if there was real upside but he should have been able to play third line, he could survive in that role his first year.

Lekhonen was fine, but he didn't play in the AHL. Andrighetto was as good as can be expected for where he was picked, and he survived Hamilton. Brook was disappointing in the AHL.

In most of the no-successful-prospects years there just weren't that many high picks. The earlier firsts were OK, the later ones mostly disappointed but weren't really bad for their spot, and there were some injuries. There were a lot of career AHL/KHLers including some late picks that did more than you would normally expect from a late pick. The lack of 2nds and 3rds hurt.

I don't think there was a single problem, it was a combination. There weren't many picks in the early rounds, picks were so so, AHL development stunk, NHL development was bad, there wasn't a lot of skill development or outside coaching at any level... Most of these items have been addressed.

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

Xhekaj by most metrics is having a better season this year than last.

Another example of these "metrics" meaning absolutely nothing without the eye test to verify/refute and explain them.

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

Even if he was a pretty explosive and fast going forward he wasn't a great 4 way skater, had trouble skating backward and pivoting, never had great positioning. He could have progress but so did everyone else... He might have had some decent game, pretty sure never progress as hope since he got drafted, It not like he was a sure fire 1st pairring D and fell off the map after all of a sudden, he started to fall behind D+1.

Beaulieu was always overrated and as dumb as a bag of rocks, this was evident prior to drafting him.

 

[malton]

Another example of these "metrics" meaning absolutely nothing without the eye test to verify/refute and explain them.

Feel free to explain in which way he's regressed before he was sent down. Would love to hear your analysis.

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

Feel free to explain in which way he's regressed before he was sent down. Would love to hear your analysis.

He was turning the puck over, out of position and taking way too many dumb penalties. He bought too much into his own hype train and was playing too much to his cartoonish reputation than he was to his team's expectations.

He wasn't very good the previous year as well but he was given more leeway as a rookie. His refusal to build a solid and reliable foundation to his game is why he went to Laval and he is just struggling to incorporate the lessons he learned down there to the higher pace in the NHL. He was positionally awful in the OHL so it is no surprise that he is struggling in the NHL. He is still very inexperienced relative to his age and will be fine imo. He just needs to learn how to play the game properly before supplementing it with his physicality and playmaking.

People just need to be patient and stop crying as though he has been wronged.

 

[Habs13]

How is second in goals for a defense, while being one of the youngest, regression?