Morgan Rielly Appreciation Thread.

[93LEAFS]

Here it is: Rielly's a terrific D-man. But let's discuss things a little further than one would read in the appreciation thread.

Now we all know Rielly's offensive game is top-notch, but let's look at the other aspects. When you look at the true elite #1D in the league, the minutes played is obviously where we see the biggest discrepancy between them and Rielly. He was 65th in ice-time last year with 21:10 ATOI.

Rielly does not play the PK as much as other #1D's and he doesn't provide the same steady element they do either in the form of playing big minutes. Rielly drastically outperforms the majority of them offensively, but defensively it really is another story.

Now if Rielly truly is an elite #1D, why is our coaching staff not icing him for 25+ minutes a game when we're having a rough night and the other team has us under siege? The truth is, Rielly cannot bring the same defensive element that a guy like Pietrangelo, Doughty, Keith, Chara or that lesser names like Hjalmarrson (of old), Slavin, Morrisey, McDonagh, Orlov, etc...

So, everything on the table: Do you consider Rielly a true elite #1D?

Was Matthews an elite #1 center before he got 1st PP minutes and the fact he doesn't PK? Do you not see how Babcock seems to allocate minute with this team?

I mean, we have the 2nd best PP over the last 2 years with Matthews on the 2nd unit, and you constantly complained about that.

 

[zeke]

Here it is: Rielly's a terrific D-man. But let's discuss things a little further than one would read in the appreciation thread.

Now we all know Rielly's offensive game is top-notch, but let's look at the other aspects. When you look at the true elite #1D in the league, the minutes played is obviously where we see the biggest discrepancy between them and Rielly. He was 65th in ice-time last year with 21:10 ATOI.

Rielly does not play the PK as much as other #1D's and he doesn't provide the same steady element they do either in the form of playing big minutes. Rielly drastically outperforms the majority of them offensively, but defensively it really is another story.

Now if Rielly truly is an elite #1D, why is our coaching staff not icing him for 25+ minutes a game when we're having a rough night and the other team has us under siege? The truth is, Rielly cannot bring the same defensive element that a guy like Pietrangelo, Doughty, Keith, Chara or that lesser names like Hjalmarrson (of old), Slavin, Morrisey, McDonagh, Orlov, etc...

So, everything on the table: Do you consider Rielly a true elite #1D?

babs is weird with minutes.

There was a wonderful 5gm stretch last year where he played him 25-27 minutes per game, and Mo was absolutely dominant.

but he happened to make 2 glaring mistakes at the end of 2gms to lose the gms, and bab ended that experiment right there and then.

 

[Goonface2k14]

Rielly is just fine on defense. He wins a lot of battles and makes quick, smart decisions with the puck. I think he is absolutely a #1 d-man.

The puck over the glass in game 7 last year was a bad mistake, but everyone deserves a mulligan every so often. His positives still far outweigh his negatives.

As a whole, it's just unfortunate that there is such a big drop off in talent in D after him. Especially high minute players like Gardiner, Hainsey and sometimes Zaitsev. They often play hot potato with the puck in their own end, and simply turn it back over to the opposition. Then the entire team collapses in their zone to try and keep the opposing team along the perimeter, and we wait for Freddy to eventually bail them out. Then we eventually get a rush from the Matthews or Tavares line and it's in the back of the other team's goal. Rinse and repeat. When you look at the final stat sheet, the opposition often gets more shots, more zone time, but the Leafs execute way better on their chances with their top-end talent.

I have faith Dermott will gain more minutes as the year progresses, and Reilly-Dermott will eventually be a legitimate top 2 pairing. Hopefully management can figure out the rest in-house with prospects like Lilly and Sandin, and/or improvement from Zaitsev (who to me has looked a little better this season than last), and/or a Willy deal, and things will eventually work out just fine.

 

[Damisoph]

Can you believe Mo is only 24 years old?

 

[IPS]

Was Matthews an elite #1 center before he got 1st PP minutes and the fact he doesn't PK? Do you not see how Babcock seems to allocate minute with this team?

I mean, we have the 2nd best PP over the last 2 years with Matthews on the 2nd unit, and you constantly complained about that.

So what exactly are you arguing here? That Rielly is good enough to handle those huge minutes but Babs chooses not to play him that much? Why wouldn't he? If Rielly is our best offensive and defensive guy, why would Babs willingly cut his minutes? We have very obvious issues with closing out games. Hainsey and Zaitsev are used in last minute situations, not Rielly. If Rielly truly was our best defensive player, he would be out there.

Rielly is just fine on defense. He wins a lot of battles and makes quick, smart decisions with the puck. I think he is absolutely a #1 d-man.

The puck over the glass in game 7 last year was a bad mistake, but everyone deserves a mulligan every so often. His positives still far outweigh his negatives.

As a whole, it's just unfortunate that there is such a big drop off in talent in D after him. Especially high minute players like Gardiner, Hainsey and sometimes Zaitsev. They often play hot potato with the puck in their own end, and simply turn it back over to the opposition. Then the entire team collapses in their zone to try and keep the opposing team along the perimeter, and we wait for Freddy to eventually bail them out. Then we eventually get a rush from the Matthews or Tavares line and it's in the back of the other team's goal. Rinse and repeat. When you look at the final stat sheet, the opposition often gets more shots, more zone time, but the Leafs execute way better on their chances with their top-end talent.

I have faith Dermott will gain more minutes as the year progresses, and Reilly-Dermott will eventually be a legitimate top 2 pairing. Hopefully management can figure out the rest in-house with prospects like Lilly and Sandin, and/or improvement from Zaitsev (who to me has looked a little better this season than last), and/or a Willy deal, and things will eventually work out just fine.

Such a big dropoff in talent after him and yet we have Zaitsev who's averaging more than 2 minutes a game over Rielly, this gap coming in the form of PK time, where Rielly has barely played this year. I agree offensively he's by far the best, but he's not defensively, which is the premise of the thread.
And it's looking like we're well on our way to having the very best, looks like I was right all along. "Constantly complained"? I bet you were one of the posters justifying the pure stupidity of that split unit approach, but that's off-topic.

We have a young, smooth skating, offensive defensemen, who us putting up historical numbers and breaking records, but we still have to complain about his shortcomings. No one ever really expected Rielly to be a shutdown defenseman. Do we need one? Sure. But do we have to debate whether Rielly is a true #1 elite dman? No because there are only a handful in the whole league.

I'm starting to jump in board with other fanbases, and despise Leafs fans. Heck I probably dislike more Leafs fans than any other fan base, yet I love the buds. We just got to stop complaining and overanalyzing. About EVERYTHING.

Boo f***ing hoo. Don't click on the thread and read it if you don't want to. Do you know what devils advocate means?

babs is weird with minutes.

There was a wonderful 5gm stretch last year where he played him 25-27 minutes per game, and Mo was absolutely dominant.

but he happened to make 2 glaring mistakes at the end of 2gms to lose the gms, and bab ended that experiment right there and then.

Babs is weird with his minutes because he's a safety-first coach. This results in less-ice time for our superstars, and more ice-time for the grinders like Hyman, Komarov, Brown etc... He thinks it's safer. When we translate Babs' tendencies over to defense, there's little reason this should apply to Rielly.

 

[ShaneFalco]

 

[Jmo89]

It's also worth remembering that many of the guys you cited for their "defensive element" may not be able to match Rielly's offensive capabilities. He's definitely not Drew Doughty, but it's hard to be matched up against a set of cherrypicked attributes of an entire list of defensemen and come out ahead.

Agreed.

It seems to me people often fall victim to this all or nothing thinking. Not specific to this thread, but I often see arguments where someone says a player isn't very good because he's not as good as the top 5 players in the league at offence, even though he's tops in defence, and vice versa.

Very very very few players are top in the league in both categories. The ones that are come every couple decades. If you're comparing Rielly's defensive game to the top 5 or so dmen in defensive metrics sure you can come to the conclusion he's not "elite." But the OP admitted his offensive game is top notch, so where do the two balance? The list is going to be extremely small if you want a dman who is "elite" at both. If Doughty is your measuring stick, there's what? One or two others?

I also can't help but find it foolish when people get caught up on terminology like "elite." So what, he's elite offensively but only "good" defensively, so he doesn't fall into some fan made terminology of being elite overall?

Rielly is a really good dman. He's the Leafs #1 and deservedly so. Does it really matter if he's elite (according to fans) across all metrics?

 

[Gallagbi]

Here it is: Rielly's a terrific D-man. But let's discuss things a little further than one would read in the appreciation thread.

Now we all know Rielly's offensive game is top-notch, but let's look at the other aspects. When you look at the true elite #1D in the league, the minutes played is obviously where we see the biggest discrepancy between them and Rielly. He was 65th in ice-time last year with 21:10 ATOI.

Rielly does not play the PK as much as other #1D's and he doesn't provide the same steady element they do either in the form of playing big minutes. Rielly drastically outperforms the majority of them offensively, but defensively it really is another story.

Now if Rielly truly is an elite #1D, why is our coaching staff not icing him for 25+ minutes a game when we're having a rough night and the other team has us under siege? The truth is, Rielly cannot bring the same defensive element that a guy like Pietrangelo, Doughty, Keith, Chara or that lesser names like Hjalmarrson (of old), Slavin, Morrisey, McDonagh, Orlov, etc...

So, everything on the table: Do you consider Rielly a true elite #1D?

Duncan Keith is a train wreck at this point in his career.

Rielly is definitely a #1, just not upper echelon.

 

[Damisoph]

Duncan Keith is a train wreck at this point in his career.

Rielly is definitely a #1, just not upper echelon.

If Rielly had made the mistakes Keith did last Sunday, people around these parts would be calling him a 2nd pairing guy.

 

[Matthews34]

Here it is: Rielly's a terrific D-man. But let's discuss things a little further than one would read in the appreciation thread.

Now we all know Rielly's offensive game is top-notch, but let's look at the other aspects. When you look at the true elite #1D in the league, the minutes played is obviously where we see the biggest discrepancy between them and Rielly. He was 65th in ice-time last year with 21:10 ATOI.

Rielly does not play the PK as much as other #1D's and he doesn't provide the same steady element they do either in the form of playing big minutes. Rielly drastically outperforms the majority of them offensively, but defensively it really is another story.

Now if Rielly truly is an elite #1D, why is our coaching staff not icing him for 25+ minutes a game when we're having a rough night and the other team has us under siege? The truth is, Rielly cannot bring the same defensive element that a guy like Pietrangelo, Doughty, Keith, Chara or that lesser names like Hjalmarrson (of old), Slavin, Morrisey, McDonagh, Orlov, etc...

So, everything on the table: Do you consider Rielly a true elite #1D?

All those defencemen listed have equal partners to play with Rielly doesn't it's that simple. Next!

 

[Brobust]

Here it is: Rielly's a terrific D-man. But let's discuss things a little further than one would read in the appreciation thread.

Now we all know Rielly's offensive game is top-notch, but let's look at the other aspects. When you look at the true elite #1D in the league, the minutes played is obviously where we see the biggest discrepancy between them and Rielly. He was 65th in ice-time last year with 21:10 ATOI.

Rielly does not play the PK as much as other #1D's and he doesn't provide the same steady element they do either in the form of playing big minutes. Rielly drastically outperforms the majority of them offensively, but defensively it really is another story.

Now if Rielly truly is an elite #1D, why is our coaching staff not icing him for 25+ minutes a game when we're having a rough night and the other team has us under siege? The truth is, Rielly cannot bring the same defensive element that a guy like Pietrangelo, Doughty, Keith, Chara or that lesser names like Hjalmarrson (of old), Slavin, Morrisey, McDonagh, Orlov, etc...

So, everything on the table: Do you consider Rielly a true elite #1D?

Have you watched Orlov outside of last season's playoffs? This guy used to have more brainfarts than Jake Gardiner.

And have you watched McDonagh paired with Girardi?

Rielly is far better than both. He's also better than Morrissey.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Babs is weird with his minutes because he's a safety-first coach. This results in less-ice time for our superstars, and more ice-time for the grinders like Hyman, Komarov, Brown etc... He thinks it's safer. When we translate Babs' tendencies over to defense, there's little reason this should apply to Rielly.

why do you think rielly is closer to a grinder like Hyman/Brown rather than an offensive superstar?

 

[diceman934]

Rielly was the pick I wanted in his draft year and I was so happy when we drafted him. I am slightly bais as i happen to know this young man. He spent two years playing hockey were i got the pleasure of seeing him play every night. He is a coach pleaser and will play the game what ever way his coach asks without complaining at all. Look at his hit numbers when he played for Carlyle as Randy wanted his D man to hit, and the support player to come and get the puck. Babs wants his D man to simply separate the man from the puck.

I had to laugh when people especially Bob (Bobo) who maybe watched him a handful of games said he was only an offensive D man. At the draft. His past coaches laughed as he killed penalties very effectively as his IQ is among the highest in the league.

Burke got lucky with the Draft pick as he happen to come to Moose Jaw on the night Rielly returned from his knee injury and caught a player another First round draft pick from behind who had a huge lead on a breakaway. I do not believe Burke watch any other games.

Rielly missed a whole year of development of his draft year and was as dominant a D man in Canada when he went back to play in the WHL on a poor team.

He gets to the leafs and plays on the right side with among the worse group of playing partners and it has continued to this day other then playing the right side which he still does many times in games when teams attack our Right D man. Despite playing with hot garbage his whole NHL Carreer and his best partner he has had ever is Haisney who is aging infront of our eyes and gets beat time and time again on the rush.

Is Rielly perfect hell no he makes mistakes as do all players in the NHL. His current partner has lost the ability to cover the ice behind him as he is far to slow and also offers no support should Rielly play with a close gap as he lacks to speed to support behind Rielly.

Let’s get this man a partner who can read and react with enough foot speed to support him to play the close gap that makes he so very effect defensively. Last night he was fantastic against the rush as well as defending against the cycle. He was more physical then he has been and seems to have become a little meaner. Let’s hope he continues with his more aggressive style.

 

[MyBudJT]

Congratulations this might very well be the stupidist thing ever typed on HF Boards ,I hope you know how big a statement that is .

Since 2016/2017
Erik Karlsson:
153 Games Played
215 Team GA
40 SH GA
4,100 TOI
3.15 GA/60
8.45 SH GA/60
29.06 TOI% QoC

Morgan Rielly:
157 Games Played
196 Team GA
34 SH GA
3432 TOI
3.43 GA/60
7.60 SH GA/60
29.49 TOI% QoC

Its close, but I prefer Rielly defensively.

 

[ObscureAlien]

his idea of safety isn't exactly normal though. that's why he loves Hainsey, Polak, Gardiner, and Zaitsev so much even though none of those guys are very steady. I don't know why Babcock doesn't play Rielly and Dermott more, but he doesn't. He also liked playing Komarov more than Marner even while he was bleeding chances against

 

[diceman934]

so all of his partner"s" made him one of the greatest d'men of all time, is that the point you are trying to make?

His point is the same point you have repeatedly ignored that he never played with 6,7,8 type D man his whole career with now with a 5 as his best partner yet.

 

[Mr Hockey]

His point is the same point you have repeatedly ignored that he never played with 6,7,8 type D man his whole career with now with a 5 as his best partner yet.

you calling me into this? I often just want to post a quick and short opinion and disengage and walk away, its usually not worth the continue ...

I dunno who Linstrom partnered with his entire 20 year career, i just tossed Orr/Lindsrom names out as an example but im sure they played with 2nd and 3rd pairing guys and elevated there play along the way. When Rielly can elevate a partners game, that's when he will be genuine #1 d'man.

If you listen to Babcock in some interviews, Hainsey is teaching Rielly, he is like a "coaching partner/on the ice coach" ... Rielly is not at the elite level yet, he has 2nd/3rd pairing "defensive play" right now, his elite skating saves him from bad play, but he is putting up a shit load of points this season.

 

[diceman934]

you calling me into this? I often just want to post a quick and short opinion and disengage and walk away, its usually not worth the continue ...

I dunno who Linstrom partnered with his entire 20 year career, i just tossed Orr/Lindsrom names out as an example but im sure they played with 2nd and 3rd pairing guys and elevated there play along the way. When Rielly can elevate a partners game, that's when he will be genuine #1 d'man.

If you listen to Babcock in some interviews, Hainsey is teaching Rielly, he is like a "coaching partner/on the ice coach" ... Rielly is not at the elite level yet, he has 2nd/3rd pairing "defensive play" right now, his elite skating saves him from bad play, but he is putting up a **** load of points this season.

So wrong. He is a top pair d man by every measurable stat. With an Ankor as his D partner. He is covering for his D partners slow feet and making him look good.

His iq and ability to make passes on his back hand puts him among the best in the league as many can not pass equally as well on both the back hand and forehand. You can not beat him wide as he can turn and force you behind the net and stay with you and takes away your time and space very effectively. Calling him a 2nd and 3rd pair defensive D man tells me all i need to know and debating with you would be pointless.

He is a 1st pair D man in all areas of the game. He is an elite point producing D man who distributes the puck very well. If you do not think he is elevating Haisney game then I simply am dumb founded as he most certainly is.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Its close, but I prefer Rielly defensively.

Andrew Berkshire made a statistical analysis of all top d-men recently. Defensively, he used the following metrics: 5-on-5 and shorthanded loose puck recoveries by zone, defensive zone non-dump in loose puck recoveries, blocked passes, stick checks, body checks, blocked shots, puck battles won, puck battles won percentage, controlled entries against, odd-man rushes against, total zone clearances, penalties taken, on-ice goals against relative to teammates, on-ice shot attempts against relative to teammates, on-ice passes to the slot against relative to teammates, on-ice high danger chances against relative to teammates (all per 60 minutes), turnover rate by zone relative to teammates.

Quite the comprehensive analysis. Here's how Karlsson ended up based on these metrics:

https://assets1.sportsnet.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Karlsson.png

And here's Morgan Rielly:

https://assets1.sportsnet.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Rielly.png

Both of them are better defensively than what many claim because defensive evaluation tends to focus on the 10 big plays over the 1000 small ones. However, while Rielly is much more well-rounded than some say, Karlsson does so many things so ridiculously well that he ends up leading the league in the defensive category. Here's a quote from the article:

"He has one of the lowest turnover rates relative to his teammates of anyone in the league, recovers loose pucks like it’s easy to beat players to them while pivoting, is among the best in the league at denying zone entries, and has one of the best sticks in the game for blocking passing lanes."

 

[LeafFever]

Morgan Rielly is Phil Housley, the same player for different generations.

Neither is the go to guy for the big penalty kill or empty net when closing out a game.

There was an empty net tonight, I think I remember 22 and 2 on the ice.

Ugh, I'm old enough to have watched Housley and I think Rielly is just so much better defensively than Housley.

 

[LeafFever]

Here it is: Rielly's a terrific D-man. But let's discuss things a little further than one would read in the appreciation thread.

Now we all know Rielly's offensive game is top-notch, but let's look at the other aspects. When you look at the true elite #1D in the league, the minutes played is obviously where we see the biggest discrepancy between them and Rielly. He was 65th in ice-time last year with 21:10 ATOI.

Rielly does not play the PK as much as other #1D's and he doesn't provide the same steady element they do either in the form of playing big minutes. Rielly drastically outperforms the majority of them offensively, but defensively it really is another story.

Now if Rielly truly is an elite #1D, why is our coaching staff not icing him for 25+ minutes a game when we're having a rough night and the other team has us under siege? The truth is, Rielly cannot bring the same defensive element that a guy like Pietrangelo, Doughty, Keith, Chara or that lesser names like Hjalmarrson (of old), Slavin, Morrisey, McDonagh, Orlov, etc...

So, everything on the table: Do you consider Rielly a true elite #1D?

Just to point-out, because I think you are using only TOI to determine and that is a flaw. Rielly actually played tougher QOC minutes than every single one of those DMen you listed. He was #2 in the ENTIRE NHL last season in that category. Due to this, it's hard to agree that the coaching staff don't somehow trust him defensively.

 

[93LEAFS]

Rielly was the pick I wanted in his draft year and I was so happy when we drafted him. I am slightly bais as i happen to know this young man. He spent two years playing hockey were i got the pleasure of seeing him play every night. He is a coach pleaser and will play the game what ever way his coach asks without complaining at all. Look at his hit numbers when he played for Carlyle as Randy wanted his D man to hit, and the support player to come and get the puck. Babs wants his D man to simply separate the man from the puck.

I had to laugh when people especially Bob (Bobo) who maybe watched him a handful of games said he was only an offensive D man. At the draft. His past coaches laughed as he killed penalties very effectively as his IQ is among the highest in the league.

Burke got lucky with the Draft pick as he happen to come to Moose Jaw on the night Rielly returned from his knee injury and caught a player another First round draft pick from behind who had a huge lead on a breakaway. I do not believe Burke watch any other games.

Rielly missed a whole year of development of his draft year and was as dominant a D man in Canada when he went back to play in the WHL on a poor team.

He gets to the leafs and plays on the right side with among the worse group of playing partners and it has continued to this day other then playing the right side which he still does many times in games when teams attack our Right D man. Despite playing with hot garbage his whole NHL Carreer and his best partner he has had ever is Haisney who is aging infront of our eyes and gets beat time and time again on the rush.

Is Rielly perfect hell no he makes mistakes as do all players in the NHL. His current partner has lost the ability to cover the ice behind him as he is far to slow and also offers no support should Rielly play with a close gap as he lacks to speed to support behind Rielly.

Let’s get this man a partner who can read and react with enough foot speed to support him to play the close gap that makes he so very effect defensively. Last night he was fantastic against the rush as well as defending against the cycle. He was more physical then he has been and seems to have become a little meaner. Let’s hope he continues with his more aggressive style.

Poulin mentioned last night what sold the Leafs was his Hlinka, so there’s a chance Burke also saw him there.

 

[diceman934]

Poulin mentioned last night what sold the Leafs was his Hlinka, so there’s a chance Burke also saw him there.

Ok well maybe then and that game I mentioned there were over 80 scouts at that game and he caught a player from about 60 feet behind him.

He was so underrated and I know I am a little Bais but I knew he was better than Murray who I had watched a whole lot. Argued with many that he was better. It was a fantastic pick in a strong D man draft. Several on here said Finn was going to be better. It was a bad pick as he was a long term project at best. Bad feet.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Most of the time he just picked big players that were not very skilled. One of them was even named Biggs.

I think that first draft where we went big and North American was the dumbest idea ever.

 

[zeke]

Andrew Berkshire made a statistical analysis of all top d-men recently. Defensively, he used the following metrics: 5-on-5 and shorthanded loose puck recoveries by zone, defensive zone non-dump in loose puck recoveries, blocked passes, stick checks, body checks, blocked shots, puck battles won, puck battles won percentage, controlled entries against, odd-man rushes against, total zone clearances, penalties taken, on-ice goals against relative to teammates, on-ice shot attempts against relative to teammates, on-ice passes to the slot against relative to teammates, on-ice high danger chances against relative to teammates (all per 60 minutes), turnover rate by zone relative to teammates.

Quite the comprehensive analysis. Here's how Karlsson ended up based on these metrics:

https://assets1.sportsnet.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Karlsson.png

And here's Morgan Rielly:

https://assets1.sportsnet.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Rielly.png

Both of them are better defensively than what many claim because defensive evaluation tends to focus on the 10 big plays over the 1000 small ones. However, while Rielly is much more well-rounded than some say, Karlsson does so many things so ridiculously well that he ends up leading the league in the defensive category. Here's a quote from the article:

"He has one of the lowest turnover rates relative to his teammates of anyone in the league, recovers loose pucks like it’s easy to beat players to them while pivoting, is among the best in the league at denying zone entries, and has one of the best sticks in the game for blocking passing lanes."

Berkshire still doesn't value qoc properly.

which is why named a sheltered bottom pair guy like Colin Miller as one of the elite dmen in hockey.