News Article: MLB To Raleigh

[MinJaBen]

The idea of shoehorning the MLB capacity into the the DBAP is comical. Besides the costs of retrofitting the building vs. just building new, the DBAP location in Durham is not as friendly for traffic as some here are leading you to believe. That part of Durham is a mess of one-way streets and is already extremely built-up on the North side of the freeway.

And yeah, the optics of kicking seniors and lower income people out of their current locations to put in a new park across the street would be worse than you can imagine here. They already did that once to the majority black Hayti District neighborhood in the 60's when the freeway was put in and Durham is still dealing with the backlash for that. To now do a very similar thing for the pleasure of some rich white guy's new toy would.....not go over well.

I think the soccer complex that they are trying to build in South Raleigh makes some sense, but I think more than that, adding to the plans around the PNC arena and Carter Finley is probably what Dundon would want the most so as to capture as much of the local sports adjacent revenue in his new district as possible. Why share that with other developers?

 

[To Be Determined]

The real play here for the discerning billionaire group is to work with the state, find a close but more rural area and then - sacrilege incoming - relocate the state fairgrounds.

The flea market, horse people, random home shows or whatever, and 10 days of fair will be fine down 40 between clayton and selma. Or somewhere in the wilds around pittsboro. Or wherever.

Then you take the current fairgrounds and have a perfect place to put an mlb stadium, commercial development, and plenty of parking including tailgating space. Would probably have plenty of space to add an mls stadium in the future if that's your fancy.

Just don't mess with dorton arena - that is a bridge too far.

(I have not decided what percent serious i am on this)

 

[CandyCanes]

With MLB payrolls ranging from $57 mill to $353 mill. I wonder how big of a payroll Dundon would sign off on.

Side note: Grateful the NHL has a salary cap. Makes the league more interesting and overall competitive.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

With MLB payrolls ranging from $57 mill to $353 mill. I wonder how big of a payroll Dundon would sign off on.

Side note: Grateful the NHL has a salary cap. Makes the league more interesting and overall competitive.

3 of the highest payrolls didn’t make the playoffs this year. Typically the top 10 in payrolls make the playoffs, not this year. Smart spending and drafting is key. Buying wins isn’t as easy.

 

[Svechhammer]

Bring a MLB to Raleigh, keep the Bulls in Durham and make them affiliates. As much as I would love it, the Bulls cannot be upgraded to MLB. Yes, its a strong brand, yes it would immediately sell a lot of merch.... But the whole Bulls charm is being the quintessential minor league baseball team, much in the same regard that the Rockford Peaches are who you think of when thinking about women's baseball from WWII. You move them to MLB and you lose that.

But, a team in Raleigh, now thats an interesting thought. If you're serious about making the area around Carter-Finley a legitimate sports and entertainment district, its a very logical fit, and if you have the full backing of Dundon to make it work, suddenly you have a very interesting proposal.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

The real play here for the discerning billionaire group is to work with the state, find a close but more rural area and then - sacrilege incoming - relocate the state fairgrounds.

The flea market, horse people, random home shows or whatever, and 10 days of fair will be fine down 40 between clayton and selma. Or somewhere in the wilds around pittsboro. Or wherever.

I'm not saying it can't be moved and it's probably worth considering..but it's not just 10 days of fair. There are horse competitions/stuff all year. There are events almost every weekend in the larger buildings at the fairground as well. Just look at the 1st half of September (they cut off activities mid Sept to prepare for the Fair).

every Saturday/Sunday: Raleigh Market
Sept 1-4: Mineral and Gem Show
Sept 2-3: Capital gun and knife show
Sept: 4: Tack /Equestrian exchange consignment sale
Sept: 7-9: NC Tow Truck and Trade Show
Sept 9-10: Monster Truck show
Sept 9-10: Raleigh coin show
Sept 15-17: Southern Ideal Home show
Sept 16-17: Toy, sports cards, memorabilia show.

Move the fairgrounds out to the middle of nowhere and you'll still get fair traffic, but traffic for most of these other activities will take a big hit and probably won't happen. There are other solutions that can work with those other activities, but it adds another level of complexity.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

Not a baseball guy but would love for the Carolinas to get a team, triangle area preferred over Charlotte but would take either. Dundon would probably have that team competitiveness relatively quickly too

 

[Daeavorn]

We can just demolish Triangle Town Center and put it there. The mall is basicalky abandoned anyways due to gang violence.

 

[Svechhammer]

I'm not saying it can't be moved and it's probably worth considering..but it's not just 10 days of fair. There are horse competitions/stuff all year. There are events almost every weekend in the larger buildings at the fairground as well. Just look at the 1st half of September (they cut off activities mid Sept to prepare for the Fair).

every Saturday/Sunday: Raleigh Market
Sept 1-4: Mineral and Gem Show
Sept 2-3: Capital gun and knife show
Sept: 4: Tack /Equestrian exchange consignment sale
Sept: 7-9: NC Tow Truck and Trade Show
Sept 9-10: Monster Truck show
Sept 9-10: Raleigh coin show
Sept 15-17: Southern Ideal Home show
Sept 16-17: Toy, sports cards, memorabilia show.

Move the fairgrounds out to the middle of nowhere and you'll still get fair traffic, but traffic for most of these other activities will take a big hit and probably won't happen. There are other solutions that can work with those other activities, but it adds another level of complexity.

On one hand, I agree with this and there definitely needs to be some consideration there about it.

On the other hand, there are only a few events each year that need the full space of the fairgrounds complex. Most of those events can happen within one or two of the indoor venues, and those could be relocated away and probably end up doing a bit better if you put it right next to the highway in a less busy section of the city.

One other thing I could end up seeing happen within the next 10 years is an IndyCar or NASCAR race coming to Raleigh. There's already been a lot of success with city races in places like Chicago and Nashville, and that could be an underrated event to come to the area, especially if you don't have to do any major infrastructure changes to make it work.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

On one hand, I agree with this and there definitely needs to be some consideration there about it.

On the other hand, there are only a few events each year that need the full space of the fairgrounds complex. Most of those events can happen within one or two of the indoor venues, and those could be relocated away and probably end up doing a bit better if you put it right next to the highway in a less busy section of the city.

Sure, it's why I said that "there are other solutions that could work, but adds to the complexity." From what I've heard and read, the venues in the Triangle are very booked up so trying to find space for 11 months worth of other activities that are currently at the fairgrounds is no small task without proper planning, development and build out.

I couldn't care less personally if the fairgrounds moved. I don't go to the fair and only attend maybe 1 other event per year so it doesn't affect me personally.

 

[whiskers]

I used to live not far from Montreal and would go to Expos games on occasion. Unless something has changed drastically, I don't see why MLB would want to expand back into Montreal. Attendance was pretty abysmal back then when I used to go.

I also used to go to games as living near Ottawa , it might work but i think there would be players not wanting to play there , montreal ia a true sport city , very critical on their team players coaches etc , they would need to build a new stadium first , as i said main problem is star players wont want to go play there , it would be like NHL players not wanting to play in Winnipeg , heck im canadian and would refuse to play there or pull a Eric lindros if was drafted from them

 

[Svechhammer]

With all of this said, in reality we wouldn't need to touch the fairgrounds to make this work. The area circled in red is more than large enough to be able to accomodate a modern MLB stadium, and would slot in nicely with the district they are trying to build up. And if we got tight at all for parking, you could buy up some of the land circled in blue for a parking deck and put a bridge or 2 over Edwards Mill to the district

 

[Svechhammer]

And interestingly, I just did a copy/paste from google maps of Citizens Bank Park in Philly or Truist Field in Atlanta using the same scale as the one above for our complex, and both stadiums in their entirety would fit between PNC and Edwards Mill, over that entire stretch from Wade Ave to the turn-in before Trinity. There's absolutely room there to make this work and tie it directly into the development they're already planning.

 

[tarheelhockey]

What about that area south of Raleigh where they are putting in the soccer complex. Is there any synergy that could be gained from that? That's easy access from Garner/Fuquay/Clayton as well as Cary/Apex/Morrisville/Durham because it's right off of 40.

I’m not sure what’s going on with those properties, but I’d have to think they would be on the short list for consideration since they’ve already been OK’ed with feasibility studies and what not. If they were looking to do an “arena district” type development, like what they’re cooking up at PNC, it would make some sense to go to that site.

This is the primary issue for any Triangle MLB team. The day-to-day ticket demand isn't going to be going to Durham regularly on weeknights.

Context for all of my comments in this and prior threads: I am very skeptical that any NC locale would really support MLB consistently.

MLB is more of a big-city league than the NHL or NBA. It’s like the NFL, if the NFL played 10 times more games. You need a lot of people who are diehard fans of the local team, not just bandwagoners and fans of the visitors. Both Charlotte and Raleigh are full of transplants and fairweather fans. They’re also very young-skewing cities, and baseball is increasingly an old man’s game which struggles to attract the next generation. All of NC’s teams have struggled and been subject to relocation rumors when they were stuck in an extended stretch of bad seasons. If the MLB team sucked long term, I could see it going very badly.

If I had to bet on one city or the other, I think Charlotte is a better bet than the Triangle. Right now would be a pretty good time for it, too, as they could probably push the Hornets overboard and effectively capture the city’s entire attention from April-October. Nobody would really miss the Knights. Figure out a way to get a stadium uptown and you’ve got enough corporate support and after-work fans to keep it above water. The Triangle would struggle with all of that stuff, relative to Charlotte.

But even at that, I’m bearish on Charlotte’s ability to be a non-fringe MLB market. It’s only just now getting big enough that I can kind of see it working, and that’s after 20 years of foolhardy attempts to attract a team which would likely have relocated by now.

 

[Svechhammer]

MLB is more of a big-city league than the NHL or NBA. It’s like the NFL, if the NFL played 10 times more games. You need a lot of people who are diehard fans of the local team, not just bandwagoners and fans of the visitors. Both Charlotte and Raleigh are full of transplants and fairweather fans. They’re also very young-skewing cities, and baseball is increasingly an old man’s game which struggles to attract the next generation. All of NC’s teams have struggled and been subject to relocation rumors when they were stuck in an extended stretch of bad seasons. If the MLB team sucked long term, I could see it going very badly.

At the same time, MLB stadiums are rapidly going through a reduction in seating capacity across the board, with only the absolute biggest markets not closing off and removing/renovating large swaths of upper deck seating. Cleveland, Baltimore, Colorado, Toronto, Houston, Chicago White Sox, Maimi, and even the Mets have had renovations over the last 5-10 years where they've actively removed outfield seats, and replaced with fan amenities. What used to be a minimum of 40k seats for a MLB team is now rapidly falling to where it could end up being around 25k-30k at a minimum by the times its settled. And even then, you still expect the venue to be mostly empty for weekday games, only filling up for the weekends.

Raleigh could easily make that work. As for corporate suites, we have enough regional HQs in this area that it wouldn't be an issue to get those sold. You have a bit of a harder time selling them for NHL games, because hockey is still a niche sport in the US, but for Major League Baseball? Every suite would be sold and regional heads would be hosting clients in there every game.

 

[CanesUltimate11]

And interestingly, I just did a copy/paste from google maps of Citizens Bank Park in Philly or Truist Field in Atlanta using the same scale as the one above for our complex, and both stadiums in their entirety would fit between PNC and Edwards Mill, over that entire stretch from Wade Ave to the turn-in before Trinity. There's absolutely room there to make this work and tie it directly into the development they're already planning.

Philly is what I keep picturing in these scenarios (Largely because I drive by it every time I go to visit my inlaws) You've got Wells Fargo Center, Century Link Field and Bank of America Stadium all within throwing distance of one another and a nice entertainment style setup in between with a small music pavilion and indoor restaurants (and some kind of ESPN deal I think). All right off 95. Probably plays havoc with scheduling but all in all a solid setup.

 

[Svechhammer]

Philly is what I keep picturing in these scenarios (Largely because I drive by it every time I go to visit my inlaws) You've got Wells Fargo Center, Century Link Field and Bank of America Stadium all within throwing distance of one another and a nice entertainment style setup in between with a small music pavilion and indoor restaurants (and some kind of ESPN deal I think). All right off 95. Probably plays havoc with scheduling but all in all a solid setup.

Wells Fargo Center, Citizens Bank Park, and Lincoln Financial Field with XFinity Live as the bar venue you were referencing.

But yes. Sorry, as a long fan of Philly teams (Canes being the lone hometown exception), that triggered me

 

[tarheelhockey]

At the same time, MLB stadiums are rapidly going through a reduction in seating capacity across the board, with only the absolute biggest markets not closing off and removing/renovating large swaths of upper deck seating. Cleveland, Baltimore, Colorado, Toronto, Houston, Chicago White Sox, Maimi, and even the Mets have had renovations over the last 5-10 years where they've actively removed outfield seats, and replaced with fan amenities. What used to be a minimum of 40k seats for a MLB team is now rapidly falling to where it could end up being around 25k-30k at a minimum by the times its settled. And even then, you still expect the venue to be mostly empty for weekday games, only filling up for the weekends.

Raleigh could easily make that work. As for corporate suites, we have enough regional HQs in this area that it wouldn't be an issue to get those sold. You have a bit of a harder time selling them for NHL games, because hockey is still a niche sport in the US, but for Major League Baseball? Every suite would be sold and regional heads would be hosting clients in there every game.

I just have my doubts. Charlotte/Raleigh are not Cleveland, Baltimore, Toronto, Chicago type cities when it comes to pro sports. The population around here is closer to a Florida type dynamic with a lot of transient folks and a lot of diehard college sports fans.

Charlotte’s one thing, because of its sheer population size and the fact that it’s a much larger corporate market. Ten Fortune 500 HQs in the Charlotte area versus three in the Triangle area (counting Burlington) is a large difference, and that’s before you look at where those companies actually rank on the list. Raleigh has some regional headquarters and smaller HQs, but those can get pilfered overnight — see Red Hat moving their leadership to Boston, Epic Games on the ropes, Bayer/Monsanto all but abandoning the market. It would be different if there were tons of competition from the Hornets and Panthers, but… uh… yeah. Meanwhile there actually is serious competition in the Triangle from the university teams, and at least for now it’s looking like the Canes are setting up to be the premier pro team in the state long-term.

That’s before we even get into the differences in infrastructure (e.g. light rail) and the fact that Charlotte concentrates its major amenities in an accessible core district rather than spreading them over multiple counties. It’s set up for MLB, notwithstanding politics and logistics over the stadium. Raleigh truly isn’t ready yet… as usual, Dundon’s projecting into the future and trying to get his share of the action while it’s still a pipe dream.

 

[LakeLivin]

You all are so naive! Dundon only wants a Raleigh MLB team so he can relocate it to Houston!

 

[tarheelhockey]

You all are so naive! Dundon only wants a Raleigh MLB team so he can relocate it to Houston!

A source reports that Dundon’s plane was spotted at the Quebec City airport.

 

[Svechhammer]

I just have my doubts. Charlotte/Raleigh are not Cleveland, Baltimore, Toronto, Chicago type cities when it comes to pro sports. The population around here is closer to a Florida type dynamic with a lot of transient folks and a lot of diehard college sports fans.

Charlotte’s one thing, because of its sheer population size and the fact that it’s a much larger corporate market. Ten Fortune 500 HQs in the Charlotte area versus three in the Triangle area (counting Burlington) is a large difference, and that’s before you look at where those companies actually rank on the list. Raleigh has some regional headquarters and smaller HQs, but those can get pilfered overnight — see Red Hat moving their leadership to Boston, Epic Games on the ropes, Bayer/Monsanto all but abandoning the market. It would be different if there were tons of competition from the Hornets and Panthers, but… uh… yeah. Meanwhile there actually is serious competition in the Triangle from the university teams, and at least for now it’s looking like the Canes are setting up to be the premier pro team in the state long-term.

Honestly, this is overall an overly pessimistic viewpoint and something that might have been true 5-10 years ago, but I really don't think it is anymore. Apple setting up shop here has completely changed the dynamic about this entire region and we're only scratching the surface on what that is going to mean. Red Hat moved because IBM took them over and consolidated leadership. Epic Games is going through a minor dip, but they're still a massive player in video gaming and still make more money hand over fist than other companies. Just because they're going through a layoff doesn't always mean they're in trouble.

As far as a train line? Meh, Charlotte has one train that goes a couple miles. Its extremely overstated to say that would be a major determining factor among the two cities. And given the timelines of the collegiate sports seasons and the NHL season when compared to MLB, I don't buy at all that there would be competition with a baseball franchise. They operate at different times per year, and, if anything, probably helps the Raleigh market more than Charlotte because there literally is no competition here during the summers, as opposed to places like Carowinds for Charlotte.

 

[AD Skinner]

nvm

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

Like any other pro sports team on Earth, if they win, they will come. I'm not worried about MLB's potential success or failure in either Charlotte or the RDU area. You would hope, however, that the league learns from the NHL and sets up expansion in such a way that will allow a club to be decent-to-good off of the bat.

As for my thoughts about turning the Durham Bulls into an MLB team, there are several ways to do it without creating zoning controversies. There's a ton of land around RTP and next to the interstate that Dundon could potentially use to build a new DBAP. The ideal outcome to me, though, would be to expand DBAP to fit 25K to 30K through building upwards.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

Like any other pro sports team on Earth, if they win, they will come. I'm not worried about MLB's potential success or failure in either Charlotte or the RDU area. You would hope, however, that the league learns from the NHL and sets up expansion in such a way that will allow a club to be decent-to-good off of the bat.

the mlb will have huge issues as long as there isn't a hard salary cap. completely absurd that a team can spend 5x as much as another team. I know some of the lower spending teams are able to have success and some of the higher spending teams fail spectacularly but it's still a huge advantage/disadvantage that makes the league a joke compared to the others (NHL, NFL especially as the NBA's soft cap is also a bit of an issue compared to the NHL and NFL hard caps).

 

[tarheelhockey]

Honestly, this is overall an overly pessimistic viewpoint and something that might have been true 5-10 years ago, but I really don't think it is anymore.

Possibly so, but I don’t think any city becomes a sustainable MLB market in 5-10 years. It’s more than just adding people and money… a place like this can become the next Tampa in a hurry.

Apple setting up shop here has completely changed the dynamic about this entire region and we're only scratching the surface on what that is going to mean. Red Hat moved because IBM took them over and consolidated leadership. Epic Games is going through a minor dip, but they're still a massive player in video gaming and still make more money hand over fist than other companies. Just because they're going through a layoff doesn't always mean they're in trouble.

With regard to tech companies, I would not assume that anything is a temporary issue. Tech industries can turn on a dime. Red Hat getting acquired was a bigger negative for this area than people maybe have realized. Their top talent isn’t in the Triangle anymore. Their community-building money is being spent in Boston. We have a nice building with a logo on it, but the corporate influence has diminished. That can happen to any company. It will most likely happen to SAS when it goes public and ceases to be run by local philanthropists. Or maybe it gets even better. I wouldn’t assume in either direction, tech industries being what they are.

At the end of the day, it’s a rat race for HQs. Regional offices are awesome for the local economy because they bring jobs and create economic niches, but that’s not the same as having a company that will name your arena or put a patch on your jersey. Different scale, and the Triangle is a clear-cut little brother to Charlotte in the corporate world.

As far as a train line? Meh, Charlotte has one train that goes a couple miles. Its extremely overstated to say that would be a major determining factor among the two cities.

I didn’t say that, I said Charlotte’s infrastructure is significantly ahead of Raleigh’s and used the light rail as an example. Raleigh right now is where Charlotte was about 20 years ago — looking forward to closing its outer loop, trying to get serious about mass transit, widening roads five years too late, arguing over whether people really want to live downtown. I lived through this chapter in Charlotte back then and it’s like watching a rerun in the Triangle. Which is great, because it’s an exciting place to live! But there‘a a reason Charlotte consistently gets the shiny toys before the Triangle.

And given the timelines of the collegiate sports seasons and the NHL season when compared to MLB, I don't buy at all that there would be competition with a baseball franchise. They operate at different times per year, and, if anything, probably helps the Raleigh market more than Charlotte because there literally is no competition here during the summers, as opposed to places like Carowinds for Charlotte.

I will just put it this way — people in the Triangle spend a lot more attention and money on college basketball than people in Charlotte spend on the Hornets. College football probably breaks even with the Panthers. The Canes take a lot bigger of a bite out of the Triangle than the Checkers do out of a Charlotte (an order of magnitude or more). In this scenario, the Charlotte Knights cease to exist… do the Durham Bulls just close up shop if Raleigh gets a team?

Carowinds isn’t really relevant competition to pro sports, as only a tiny number of people make it a habit to go there often (and it’s literally the most miserable place in the entire state during the summer). As a competitor it’s comparable to the State Fair, or maybe the NC Zoo. We don’t worry about them cutting into the sports market.

If I’m worried about competition in Charlotte, it’s a resurgence of interest in the Panthers (temporary) and Hornets (unlikely) combined with the effect of NASCAR races (an actual marquee event) plus the presence of Charlotte FC (we’ll see if they can get traction). That’s significant and part of the reason I still hesitate to call Charlotte “ready for MLB”. But none of those come anywhere near the combined impact of State/UNC/Duke dominating the local sports culture including baseball, plus the Canes building a serious deep-rooted fanbase in the wealthiest demographics, plus having perhaps the most culturally-ingrained minor league baseball team in the country right there in Durham. Relative to the size of the market, Raleigh’s stretched a lot thinner for the sports dollar and sports attention in general.