MLB Equivalents To NHL Players

[Dale53130]

Nice work on the Johnson/Chara comp!

Hmmm. But like you're saying with me with Francis and Ott, Chara is behind Randy Johnson in terms of peak and career value. Randy Johnson is right up there amongst the greatest pitchers of All Time, Chara is further down the list amongst the greatest defenders of All Time by comparison (at least I believe him to be).

For the record, I also like @buffalowing88 's Chara/Johnson comparison, I was thinking of it too yesterday.

Edit to add, there's a significant difference between Chara finishing up there in Norris voting, and Randy Johnson either winning Cy Young's or placing high in Cy Young voting. Johnson's also doing this versus a very dense group of historically great pitching and historically great batting. Even your mentioning Kevin Brown in your OP, I think he was a very good pitcher myself, and that tells you the depth of the quality of pitching in that mid '90s to mid '00s period (or even beyond that).

Kevin Brown is so far down the list of pitchers from that period, only because there was so much great pitching at the time, that he's a bit of an afterthought compared to his peers. A number of people don't like Mike Mussina making the HOF, but I'm all for it, because if he played in a different era (more like now), he'd have been highlighted and would have stood out more. I feel just the opposite about Chara vs his peers/competition, relative to his peak/prime. The competition Chara was up against for the Norris, wasn't as strong (IMO), relative to what Randy Johnson was up against. Even Johnson's own teammate, Curt Shilling, was awesome at the same time they were both with Arizona, which could cut in to his actually winning two of his Cy Youngs ('01, '02), though it didn't.

 

[Neutrinos]

Hmmm. But like you're saying with me with Francis and Ott, Chara is behind Randy Johnson in terms of peak and career value. Randy Johnson is right up there amongst the greatest pitchers of All Time, Chara is further down the list amongst the greatest defenders of All Time by comparison (at least I believe him to be).

In this sense, you're calling "balls & strikes".

For the record, I also like @buffalowing88 's Chara/Johnson comparison, I was thinking of it too yesterday.

Edit to add, there's a significant difference between Chara finishing up there in Norris voting, and Randy Johnson either winning Cy Young's or placing high in Cy Young voting. Johnson's also doing this versus a very dense group of historically great pitching and historically great batting. Even your mentioning Kevin Brown in your OP, I think he was a very good pitcher myself, and that tells you the depth of the quality of pitching in that mid '90s to mid '00s period (or even beyond that).

Kevin Brown is so far down the list of pitchers from that period, only because there was so much great pitching at the time, that he's a bit of an afterthought compared to his peers. A number of people don't like Mike Mussina making the HOF, but I'm all for it, because if he played in a different era (more like now), he'd have been highlighted and would have stood out more. This is how I feel about Chara vs his peers/competition, relative to his peak/prime. The competition Chara was up against for the Norris, wasn't as strong (IMO), relative to what Randy Johnson was up against. Even Johnson's own teammate, Curt Shilling, was awesome at the same time they were both with Arizona.

Right, but as the poster who made the comparison said, they were freakishly tall athletes in their respective sports, and it took them a while to make their size work for them, but once they did they were among the very best of their generation (at their respective positions), and in some seasons likely peaked as the very best, at least according to end of season awards... not to mention they're in the conversation for most intimidating player in history

When applicable, I think it's fair to compare players sharing unique physical attributes...

I dare say, if we had a 1-armed hockey player, regardless of position or effectiveness, he would be the Jim Abbott of hockey


As for Ott/Francis, respectfully, you didn't even provide a reason for why you settled on those 2 as equivalents, so I was merely pointing out that while they have similarly impressive career totals, Ott is in a higher class

 

[Dale53130]

I was comparing them by their longevity, their both starting at a young age, and specifically, big totals for guys who won't generally be thought of as upper-echelon stars (superduperstars) in their respective sports. I don't think that Mel Ott was "underrated" in his day - and I'm not sure if Francis is still considered underrated though I thought he might have been at some point in time - but I do think Ott gets passed over quite a bit whenever the All Time greats are being mentioned, especially over the last 30 years or so.

Francis has +500 goals, and 1,798 points, while Mel Ott has 511 HR with 1,890 RBI. To me, I often put home run and goals scored on a similar plane, as I do with points and RBI production. I didn't necessarily do that with my other comparisons, but I did here, with these two guys.

As for Ott/Francis, respectfully, you didn't even provide a reason for why you settled on those 2 as equivalents, so I was merely pointing out that while they have similarly impressive career totals, Ott is in a higher class

But I did provide my reasons, and they went beyond impressive career totals. And why shouldn't similar career totals count exactly?

 

[Neutrinos]

Bryce Harper/Sidney Crosby
Hyped by the national media as future generational superstars before they were old enough to drive, both were selected 1st overall, both were all-stars as rookies, both have multiple MVP awards despite a career hampered by injuries, and both received a tremendous amount of hate from opposing fan bases early in their career

 

[carjackmalone]

Eddie Shore- Ty Cobb
Alex Ovechkin - Babe Ruth
Roger Clemens-Satchel Paige
Geordie Howe-Hank Aaron
Wayne Gretzky-Ted Williams
Bobby Orr-Mickey Mantle
Guy Lafleur-Willie Mays

 

[Neutrinos]

Eddie Shore- Ty Cobb
Alex Ovechkin - Babe Ruth
Roger Clemens-Satchel Paige
Geordie Howe-Hank Aaron
Wayne Gretzky-Ted Williams
Bobby Orr-Mickey Mantle
Guy Lafleur-Willie Mays

Alex Ovechkin is, at best, Sammy Sosa with a longer prime...

 

[Dale53130]

Alex Ovechkin, is at best, Sammy Sosa with a longer prime...

That's the one that jumped out to you the most? You're okay with the Clemens-Paige comparison in your thread?

 

[Neutrinos]

That's the one that jumped out to you the most? You're okay with the Clemens-Paige comparison in your thread?

I did see it, but forgot to point it out in my reply...

 

[carjackmalone]

I did see it, but forgot to point it out in my reply...

Longevity and strikeout abilities and elite in his mid 40’s

 

[Neutrinos]

Bob Gibson/Bernie Parent

2x World Series/Conn Smythe winner after a historical regular season and playoff. Both in the Hall of Fame

And, if you call Bob by his given name of Robert, each of their first and last names have 6 letters...

Robert Gibson
Bernie Parent

 

[MXD]

Hasek - Pedro Martinez:

It's the first that came to mind.

 

[ponder719]

I was trying to think of one for Griffey and honestly I dont think there is one. The only comparable in sports for 90s Griffey I can make is Jordan. As a kid of the 90s, they were both up on the same mountain top in terms of popularity and performance. Hell, there was no bigger status symbol than having a Griffey or Jordan rookie card.

If I was to find the closest comparable for Griffey, it would be Eric Lindros. Both came into their respective sport as a phenomenon. Granted, hockey has a much lower pop culture ceiling (in the US, at least) than baseball, but Lindros was, relative to his sport, as dominant a presence as Griffey was. (This might be slightly colored by me being a Flyers fan, but I remember people calling the WFC "The House that Lindros Built" for the first few years of its existence, and you don't get that if you aren't a megastar.) Both could simply call game and end it of their own accord, and the opposing team could do absolutely nothing about it. Both are forever linked with their first team, and while they had a bit of success in their second stop, it always felt wrong. Both were hampered by injuries, robbing the league of their greatness continuing over the back half of their career, both won major individual awards, neither won a championship, Lindros made the NHL's 100 greatest players list, Griffey the MLB All-Century team.

 

[Neutrinos]

I also have Pedro = Hasek

Clemens = Roy
Came up with a storied franchise, won of multiple individual awards, left their original team under less than amicable conditions, each made a fool of themselves during a playoff game

Maddux = Brodeur
Elite fielder/puckhandler, both were workhorses who spent much of their career racking up wins on a perennial contender. Despite their impressive collection of individual hardware, some fans view their accomplishments with a bit of an asterisk... Maddux had the expanded strikezone/average K/9 rate, while Brodeur played for a defensive juggernaut/average SV%

I guess that means Randy Johnson = Ed Belfour

And Curt Schilling = Tom Barrasso

 

[mrhockey193195]

Growing up, I always thought there were interesting parallels to Clemens-Pedro and Roy-Hasek.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Dennis Eckersley - Red Kelly

both transitioned to a different position and performed at an elite level at both.

Eckersley finished 4th in Cy Young voting as a starter. He then transitioned to a closer becoming one of the best ever and winning the Cy Young and MVP in 1992
Kelly was an elite defender winning a Norris and multiple years Top 3 in Hart and Norris voting. He transitioned to forward later in his career peaking again with an 8th place Hart finish in Toronto

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Stan Musial, Jean Beliveau
Bobby Clarke, Pete Rose
Ron Francis, Mel Ott
Brian Trottier, George Brett
Gordie Howe, Hank Aaron
Garry Unger, Rusty Staub
Terry Sawchuk, Yogi Berra
Dave Andreychuk, Harold Baines
Luc Robitaille, Paul Molitor
Mike Modano, Scott Rolen

Might switch Mel Ott with Molitor. Francis and Molitor both big in the clutch.

Love the Musial, Beliveau. As well as Clarke, Rose and Trottier, Brett.

 

[Neutrinos]

Dennis Eckersley - Red Kelly

both transitioned to a different position and performed at an elite level at both.

Eckersley finished 4th in Cy Young voting as a starter. He then transitioned to a closer becoming one of the best ever and winning the Cy Young and MVP in 1992
Kelly was an elite defender winning a Norris and multiple years Top 3 in Hart and Norris voting. He transitioned to forward later in his career peaking again with an 8th place Hart finish in Toronto

Red Kelly sounds more like Mookie Betts, who after years of being a Gold Glove winning outfielder with an MVP on his resume, is now an all-star SS/2B for the Dodgers...

Eck's role may have changed, but his position didn't

 

[Mandar]

How About: Scott Stevens = Pudge Rodriguez

Both great defenders that could hit

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Red Kelly sounds more like Mookie Betts, who after years of being a Gold Glove winning outfielder with an MVP on his resume, is now an all-star SS/2B for the Dodgers...

Eck's role may have changed, but his position didn't

his position absolutely changed. there's a hell of a lot more difference between a closer and a starter than infield and outfield. Starter and closer are entirely different positions.

infield to outfield swaps happen often in baseball, you almost never see a starter become a closer, let alone Cy Young caliber at both. The list is basically 2 names, Eckersley and Smoltz

 

[Neutrinos]

his position absolutely changed. there's a hell of a lot more difference between a closer and a starter than infield and outfield. Starter and closer are entirely different positions.

infield to outfield swaps happen often in baseball, you almost never see a starter become a closer, let alone Cy Young caliber at both. The list is basically 2 names, Eckersley and Smoltz

That is factually incorrect. Starter... reliever... the position is that of a pitcher

And while it may have changed in recent years, back in the day, lots of MLB closers were starters in the minors and early into their careers...

Mariano Rivera made 10 starts as a rookie
Eric Gagne started 24 games just 2 seasons before his historical Cy Young season as a reliever
Joe Nathan started 29 games across his first 2 seasons before becoming an all-star closer
Jason Isringhausen made 47 starts before becoming an all-star closer
Jose Mesa made nearly 100 starts over his first 5 seasons before becoming an all-star closer
Rick Aguilera made 70 starts before becoming an all-star closer
Tom Gordon and Dave Righetti were effective starters before becoming all-star closers
Rich Gossage was an all-star reliever in '75, an all-star starter in '76 with 15 complete games!, before returning to being in an all-star closer in '77
And Derek Lowe was an all-star closer in 2000, and an all-star starter in 2002

Now can you name me one example of a superstar OF moving to SS at the age of 30?

Because there are lots of examples of all-star infielders moving to the OF (Chipper Jones, Craig Biggio, Ryan Braun, Gary Sheffield, Fernando Tatis, Robin Yount), but I'm struggling to think of a time when an all-star outfielder has moved to shortstop - especially so late into his career

 

[Dale53130]

Carlos Baerga, Jimmy Carson - Same age, both looked really good early on, neither was able to reestablish their early success.

Barry Bonds, Mario Lemieux - Yes, both played in Pittsburg and won multiple MVPs there, both could have won at least another one in Pittsburgh, they're only a year apart in age, etc.

Most importantly though, is that both of these guys spring to mind, when thinking about them going through the motions at times, where the game is too easy for them, that they're playing bored; as though they can yawn in-game while looking off into the distance at nothing in particular. And they can get away with it, because they play the game on a completely different level than everyone else (save for Gretzky).

Bonds from '94-'98, averaging about +30 HR, 30 SB, +110 RBI, +120 R, +125 BB while winning GGs (while somehow only finishing 12th in MVP voting in 1995!!!), frankly, didn't even seem to play like he cared all that much during that stretch. One does it with arrogance (which didn't bother me in the least but really got to the Skip Bayless, Rick Reilly, and Bob Costas-types), while Lemieux did it in a regal way which could be off putting to people too. If Lemieux played tennis, while his career was being played-out, he'd be revered like Roger Federer (who he's probably most like).

Jeff Kent, Martin St. Louis - They both won MVP (Hart) trophies, and they did most of their counting-stat damage in their 30s; both making significant jumps in their very late 20's. I was also considering Adam Oates here too, and frankly, he might even be a better candidate.

Ichiro Suzuki, Peter Stastny (or Hasek) - Apologies to Hideo Homo, but Suzuki was the first player to break through as a star/superstar in the majors. And unless I'm forgetting about someone, the same could be said for Stastny. Both had late starts, and both of their career stats would look that much greater if they started a few/several years earlier.

 

[MadLuke]

same could be said for Stastny

Depends where you rank Salming in the stardom level, 4 time norris finalist, HOF, 6 time made the all star teams, was an almost ppg defenseman during his peak.

Was Hasek became a star in 1994 that was post Kurri-Nilsson-Bure-Fedorov-Mogilny-Jagr-Selanne-Sundin-Stastny....

 

[Neutrinos]

Carlos Baerga, Jimmy Carson - Same age, both looked really good early on, neither was able to reestablish their early success.

Barry Bonds, Mario Lemieux - Yes, both played in Pittsburg and won multiple MVPs there, both could have won at least another one in Pittsburgh, they're only a year apart in age, etc.

Most importantly though, is that both of these guys spring to mind, when thinking about them going through the motions at times, where the game is too easy for them, that they're playing bored; as though they can yawn in-game while looking off into the distance at nothing in particular. And they can get away with it, because they play the game on a completely different level than everyone else (save for Gretzky).

Bonds from '94-'98, averaging about +30 HR, 30 SB, +110 RBI, +120 R, +125 BB while winning GGs (while somehow only finishing 12th in MVP voting in 1995!!!), frankly, didn't even seem to play like he cared all that much during that stretch. One does it with arrogance (which didn't bother me in the least but really got to the Skip Bayless, Rick Reilly, and Bob Costas-types), while Lemieux did it in a regal way which could be off putting to people too. If Lemieux played tennis, while his career was being played-out, he'd be revered like Roger Federer (who he's probably most like).

Jeff Kent, Martin St. Louis - They both won MVP (Hart) trophies, and they did most of their counting-stat damage in their 30s; both making significant jumps in their very late 20's. I was also considering Adam Oates here too, and frankly, he might even be a better candidate.

Ichiro Suzuki, Peter Stastny (or Hasek) - Apologies to Hideo Homo, but Suzuki was the first player to break through as a star/superstar in the majors. And unless I'm forgetting about someone, the same could be said for Stastny. Both had late starts, and both of their career stats would look that much greater if they started a few/several years earlier.

Hideo Nomo was absolutely the first Japanese superstar in MLB...

In fact, his rookie season is very reminiscent of another Dodgers' legend that burst onto the scene as a foreigner with a funky delivery to become one of the league's biggest stories...

Valenzuela's rookie season:
4.8 WAR in 192 innings
13 - 7 record, 2.48 ERA, 1.045 WHIP, 135 ERA+
NL leader with 180 strikeouts

Nomo's rookie season:
4.7 WAR in 191 innings
13 - 6 record, 2.54 ERA, 1.056 WHIP, 149 ERA+
NL leader with 236 strikeouts and an 11.1 K/9 (beating Koufax's franchise record of 10.54 K/9)

Nomo also started the all-star game as a rookie (striking out Lofton, Edgar, Belle)
He then beat out Chipper Jones for Rookie of the Year
And he finished 4th in Cy Young voting, but at quick glance, it appears he should've easily been the runner-up to Maddux

1995 Awards Voting | Baseball-Reference.com

Winners and Vote Totals for the MVP, Cy Young, Rookie of the Year, and Manager of the Year Awards

www.baseball-reference.com

His '96 season was just as impressive, and it was capped off with a no-hitter at Coors Field... the only one ever thrown at that stadium

And then in '97, he joined Doc Gooden as the only pitcher in history to strike out at least 200 batters in each of his first three seasons

In 2014, Nomo was inducted into the Japanese Baseball Hall of Fame, becoming just the 3rd player to be elected in their first year of eligibility, and at the time of his induction, he was the youngest player ever elected to that Hall of Fame

 

[Dale53130]

Hideo Nomo was absolutely the first Japanese superstar in MLB...

In fact, his rookie season is very reminiscent of another Dodgers' legend that burst onto the scene as a foreigner with a funky delivery to become one of the league's biggest stories...

Valenzuela's rookie season:
4.8 WAR in 192 innings
13 - 7 record, 2.48 ERA, 1.045 WHIP, 135 ERA+
NL leader with 180 strikeouts

Nomo's rookie season:
4.7 WAR in 191 innings
13 - 6 record, 2.54 ERA, 1.056 WHIP, 149 ERA+
NL leader with 236 strikeouts and an 11.1 K/9 (beating Koufax's franchise record of 10.54 K/9)

Nomo also started the all-star game as a rookie
He then beat out Chipper Jones for Rookie of the Year
And he finished 4th in Cy Young voting, but at quick glance, it appears he should've easily been the runner-up to Maddux

1995 Awards Voting | Baseball-Reference.com

Winners and Vote Totals for the MVP, Cy Young, Rookie of the Year, and Manager of the Year Awards

www.baseball-reference.com

His '96 season was just as impressive, and it was capped off with a no-hitter at Coors Field... the only one ever thrown at that stadium

And then in '97, he joined Doc Gooden as the only pitcher in history to strike out at least 200 batters in each of his first three seasons

In 2014, Nomo was inducted into the Japanese Baseball Hall of Fame, becoming just the 3rd player to be elected in their first year of eligibility, and at the time of his induction, he was the youngest player ever elected to that Hall of Fame

Stop it.

He was a star player for two years, and he was covered (by the media) like a superstar. Fine. I rooted for him at the time (same with Chan Ho Park a little later). A really nice start for Nomo, does not qualify (for me at least) someone to be a superstar.

How you qualify superstar, is just watering down the meaning, where people now have to say things like superduperstar (Bill Simmons). What's a star then? To me, it's a fringe All Star-type.

I had a post in there, outside of that btw.

 

[Dale53130]

Depends where you rank Salming in the stardom level, 4 time norris finalist, HOF, 6 time made the all star teams, was an almost ppg defenseman during his peak.

Was Hasek became a star in 1994 that was post Kurri-Nilsson-Bure-Fedorov-Mogilny-Jagr-Selanne-Sundin-Stastny....

Sorry, I meant among Czech players specifically, and Suzuki with Japan.