Player Discussion Mitch Marner

[notDatsyuk]

I’m referring to what Edmonton paid they’re top five players as compared to what the Leafs paid they’re top five players. Those Edmonton players took a lot less money and got their team to within one win of a Stanley Cup while the Leafs group can’t them out of the first round and get paid a lot more money.

If you're talking 'best players' instead of 'highest paid', then you should exclude JT, and probably MItch as well.

 

[leafs in five]

Eh, millions of people on the internet, the team has millions of fans so every POV you can possibly imagine (and many that you can't) will be posted here. That doesn't quite rise to the level of being "shamed out of town" though. JMHO.

you just seem to make these objections to specific words or phrases used to describe things that are clearly happening. of course it's people talking on the internet. I'm responding to them on the internet. anyway

 

[notDatsyuk]

Yeah because $7.5M is chump change to an owner. There’s no urgency for other teams to trade for him before Monday and they all have annual budgets to work within. One of the attractions of trading for Marner is he’ll only be paid $775,000 for next season. His next contract is a much bigger gamble.

I'm not sure whether you're agreeing with me or not.

Yes, $7.5M is small (not sure 'chump change', but) when you're looking at $100M, and it's only the cash part - cap is still $10.9.

 

[darrylsittler27]

If you're talking 'best players' instead of 'highest paid', then you should exclude JT, and probably MItch as well.

Thats the whole point. How much does Draistil make? Mitch isnt a fraction of that guy so I dont care what Nylander makes. I seriously wonder if Berube wants Marner for a deep run. The Leafs might be better waiting for the right type of player before blowing it all on the wrong guys. After watching this years playoffs this team as of right now has a zero percent chance of a cup. Woll will get $4 Million and then play 30 to 35 games. Everyone knows Toronto overpays...just watch. Never forget Tre didnt do that well in Calgary. Both he and Shanny could be gone next year if they bungle this.

 

[francis246]

Yeah because $7.5M is chump change to an owner. There’s no urgency for other teams to trade for him before Monday and they all have annual budgets to work within. One of the attractions of trading for Marner is he’ll only be paid $775,000 for next season. His next contract is a much bigger gamble.

I don’t get how more people don’t understand this. Paying Marner $775,000 in real money is a huge attraction. No one is trading for him before July 1st.

 

[ACC1224]

For Matty and Mitch, I would say money, although for Mitch and JT, it's their home town. Willy says he just loves Toronto and playing here. He and Mo have spent their entire careers here, and Willy in particular knows what constantly switching teams is like.

Nylander is number #1 on the team when looking for money. He's shown that twice.
They've all spent their entire careers here.

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

If you've ever been part of a Team you'd understand why. These guys have been together for their entire professional lives and they obviously want to continue playing together. Being competitive, they feel they can win together. It's not that hard to see things once the froth blinders come off.

Notice when I comment in favour of trading Marner I am not critiquing you personally? Why do you do this? Yes I've been a part of a team and made great friends. The story is naturally different with 10s of millions and MLSE should manage accordingly.

Because he grew up here. I’m sure a part of him wants to leave. But when you’re in a place living out your dream, the thought of starting new is scary. So I imagine for Marner, he’s going through the process of trying to detach so he can make the move. He may not be ready this off-season but I imagine he’s gone by the end of next season. I doubt he resigned.

I agree with you, however, I am over his feelings of fear and friendship. He's already being paid world-beater money and would like a raise. Too bad regarding him being afraid. The Leafs should press the issue.

 

[francis246]

Nylander is number #1 on the team when looking for money. He's shown that twice.
They've all spent their entire careers here.

Was about to say, all of them minus Tavares have spent their entire careers here

 

[Gary Nylund]

Well Gary, most of the biggest mistakes made by NHL GM’s is made on July 1st. Having cap space is both a blessing and a curse. You tend to overpay aging UFA’s. It’s not a guarantee you get better immediately.

Thats why trading Marner might be scary for some. You trade Marner and sign 4 horrible contracts you’re worse off than how we started.

There are never any guarantees but this 4 horrible contracts is a paranoia driven worst case scenario rather than a realistic prediction.

Of course it's scary, any time you trade a player as good as Marner it's a bit scary, that's a given. To me, committing to him for another long term big bucks contract is more scary, that's all. A lot more scary.

you just seem to make these objections to specific words or phrases used to describe things that are clearly happening. of course it's people talking on the internet. I'm responding to them on the internet. anyway

Fair enough, "shamed out of town" just seemed a bit over the top to me. I assume Marner is trying his best, no shame in that so I thought shame was a strange word to use to begin with. He plays so well like 95% of the time or so, it's just that the 5% when he disappears are the most important games, I can't recall seeing anything like this before. But yeah, I'm sure he's trying so no shame, just one of those things.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Nylander is number #1 on the team when looking for money. He's shown that twice.
They've all spent their entire careers here.

He's insisted on being paid fairly (in Toronto terms,. which means 10-20% too much, thanks to Dubas), but other than Matty, who's given more value? He was #5 in salary on the team last time around.

 

[ACC1224]

He's insisted on being paid fairly (in Toronto terms,. which means 10-20% too much, thanks to Dubas), but other than Matty, who's given more value? He was #5 in salary on the team last time around.

You never mentioned 'value' in the post I initially quoted. You alluded to Matthews and Marner only being in it for the money when Nylander has shown to be the biggest culprit.

 

[IPS]

Nylander is number #1 on the team when looking for money. He's shown that twice.
They've all spent their entire careers here.

What exactly is the measure of judging who's the "most about the money"?

 

[francis246]

There are never any guarantees but this 4 horrible contracts is a paranoia driven worst case scenario rather than a realistic prediction.

Of course it's scary, any time you trade a player as good as Marner it's a bit scary, that's a given. To me, committing to him for another long term big bucks contract is more scary, that's all. A lot more scary.



Fair enough, "shamed out of town" just seemed a bit over the top to me. I assume Marner is trying his best, no shame in that so I thought shame was a strange word to use to begin with. He plays so well like 95% of the time or so, it's just that the 5% when he disappears are the most important games, I can't recall seeing anything like this before. But yeah, I'm sure he's trying so no shame, just one of those things.

I don’t think it’s really paranoia. Outside of Hyman with EDM.

What UFA in the salary cap era has truly made an impact for a Stanley cup Champion? Not many tbh. Marian Hossa might be another, There’s a greater chance that UFA will be a buyout candidate in a few years than Stanley cup championship. I’m all for cap space but I think we need to use the cap space to make a trade, we shouldn’t blow all of it on UFA’s

EDIT - here is a list of some of the best UFA’s in the salary cap era. Not sure there are any guys in UFA currently close to these guys.

Zdeno Chara - Boston (2006)
Marian Hossa - Chicago (2009)
Scott Niedermayer - Anaheim (2005)
Sergei Gonchar - Pittsburgh (2005)

 

[notdoneyet]

Said it at the time, the AAV Dubas gifted him was his ticket out of Toronto. Had Tre traded Nylander, there was a chance to keep Marner. If these 3 clowns really wanted to win, they'd have gotten together with Leafs management and worked out numbers that were team friendly. They chose the money, now one by one they need to GTFO unless they lead the team to some playoff success.


Yup and I hope I win the lottery.

Seriously I'd gladly pay him only 500K more than his ask if he put up 120 points and carried the team deep into the playoffs. It is his $100m ask and the core's lack playoff of playoff success that I have no interest in.

I can never figure out why it’s always on marner to be successful he has to carry the team on his back in the playoffs
Don’t we have a 69 goal scorer who should be doing that
Who is as bad or worse than marner in all the other lay-off seasons

 

[Aashir Mallik]

You never mentioned 'value' in the post I initially quoted. You alluded to Matthews and Marner only being in it for the money when Nylander has shown to be the biggest culprit.

I’d argue matthews is the biggest culprit

Matthews took a 5 year RFA deal on 8 year AAV. No one followed that trend of his

He then proceeds to take 4 years at an AAV that he probably shouldn’t get at 8 years, which of course no one, even nylander doesn’t follow. He did this to maximize his earnings by betting on himself, after this contract he can still take an 8 year deal and secure another 80-110 depending on the player he is

Matthews has broken long standing trends twice now to make money, nylander only did it once in his RFA deal

 

[Gary Nylund]

What exactly is the measure of judging who's the "most about the money"?

Good question, I was wondering about this myself.

I don’t think it’s really paranoia. Outside of Hyman with EDM.

What UFA in the salary cap era has truly made an impact for a Stanley cup Champion? Not many tbh. Marian Hossa might be another, There’s a greater chance that UFA will be a buyout candidate in a few years than Stanley cup championship. I’m all for cap space but I think we need to use the cap space to make a trade, we shouldn’t blow all of it on UFA’s

You don't think the idea that 11 million in cap space will turn into 4 bad contracts is paranoia? Fair enough, agree to disagree.

 

[Jojalu]

Nylander is number #1 on the team when looking for money. He's shown that twice.
They've all spent their entire careers here.

How has he shown that any more than Matthews or Marner?

Matthews has asked and rwceived far more money than Nylander, and although it hasn't happened yet, I dare say Marner is going to ask for more than Nylander again.

 

[nuck]

I’d argue matthews is the biggest culprit

Matthews took a 5 year RFA deal on 8 year AAV. No one followed that trend of his

He then proceeds to take 4 years at an AAV that he probably shouldn’t get at 8 years, which of course no one, even nylander doesn’t follow. He did this to maximize his earnings by betting on himself, after this contract he can still take an 8 year deal and secure another 80-110 depending on the player he is

Matthews has broken long standing trends twice now to make money, nylander only did it once in his RFA deal

The culprit was the rookie GM as with all the deals from that year. He was in over his head with the more experienced player agents in one of the most difficult situations imaginable. Not a good situation to learn on the fly as the ramifications are basically permanent.

 

[ACC1224]

How has he shown that any more than Matthews or Marner?

Matthews has asked and rwceived far more money than Nylander, and although it hasn't happened yet, I dare say Marner is going to ask for more than Nylander again.

It's natural as better players that they would look for more money. It's up to the GM to set the appropriate pay scale.
Both players though signed relatively easy in comparison to Nylander, who obviously sat out and would have went to UFA this season had Treliving not relented.

 

[francis246]

Good question, I was wondering about this myself.



You don't think the idea that 11 million in cap space will turn into 4 bad contracts is paranoia? Fair enough, agree to disagree.

No I don’t, look at Calgary as a prime example. Blake Coleman and Kadri they signed for about 11 million and the team is still mediocre.

Barclay Goodrow was placed on waivers this season and he’s a really good playoff performer. But he was paid way too much.

I think you use some of Marner’s cap to try and acquire a young player. All of our cap doesn’t need to be spent through UFA

 

[ACC1224]

I’d argue matthews is the biggest culprit

Matthews took a 5 year RFA deal on 8 year AAV. No one followed that trend of his

He then proceeds to take 4 years at an AAV that he probably shouldn’t get at 8 years, which of course no one, even nylander doesn’t follow. He did this to maximize his earnings by betting on himself, after this contract he can still take an 8 year deal and secure another 80-110 depending on the player he is

Matthews has broken long standing trends twice now to make money, nylander only did it once in his RFA deal

Yeah, fair enough. All players look out for themselves, it's the degree with which they take it.

 

[notbias]

At least if you have cap you can spend it, either well or not. If you don't have it, you have no chance of spending it well.

Tre has already done better in one year than the previous GM did in five, so he deserves a bit of a chance.

Not based on results, we regressed.

Which signings were your favorites?

How was Bert? Reaves? Samsanov? Klingberg?

He had $20 million last summer and $20 million again this summer.

 

[Gary Nylund]

No I don’t, look at Calgary as a prime example. Blake Coleman and Kadri they signed for about 11 million and the team is still mediocre.

Barclay Goodrow was placed on waivers this season and he’s a really good playoff performer. But he was paid way too much.

I think you use some of Marner’s cap to try and acquire a young player. All of our cap doesn’t need to be spent through UFA

All I said was that cap space is a valuable asset and assuming it would be wasted make no sense. I didn't say anything about how we should spend it.

Not based on results, we regressed.

Which signings were your favorites?

How was Bert? Reaves? Samsanov? Klingberg?

He had $20 million last summer and $20 million again this summer.

Brodie was a good signing. Hyman was too, maybe it would have been us that signed him if we weren't so short on cap space. Domi was really good too, I was saying lock him up in the middle of the season, too bad we didn't do that.

 

[notbias]

All I said was that cap space is a valuable asset and assuming it would be wasted make no sense. I didn't say anything about how we should spend it.



Brodie was a good signing. Hyman was too, maybe it would have been us that signed him if we weren't so short on cap space. Domi was really good too, I was saying lock him up in the middle of the season, too bad we didn't do that.

Hyman we could have signed, chose not to, wasn't a cap issue.

Brodie was good for a few years.

Why are you bringing up past signings? Is it that hard to defend last year's signings?

Domi was good, yes.

 

[Racer88]

Thats the whole point. How much does Draistil make? Mitch isnt a fraction of that guy so I dont care what Nylander makes. I seriously wonder if Berube wants Marner for a deep run. The Leafs might be better waiting for the right type of player before blowing it all on the wrong guys. After watching this years playoffs this team as of right now has a zero percent chance of a cup. Woll will get $4 Million and then play 30 to 35 games. Everyone knows Toronto overpays...just watch. Never forget Tre didnt do that well in Calgary. Both he and Shanny could be gone next year if they bungle this.

It painfully obvious to all but a few that we are so so far away from being a contender it’s sad