Player Discussion Mitch Marner - On Hiatus

[notdoneyet]

So MM had played terrible in two of the three series over the past two seasons.

If you need to use defensive stats to justify a 11mil forward as being useful. Agents will love you if you ever become a GM.

If salaries are based mostly on regular season, why do players who had great playoffs always ended up getting a huge raise?

I don’t understand why you are keeping your crusade to defend MM, he has been choking big time. That’s just a fact.
Now he isn’t the only one of our top guys, as JT is a lot worse.

When comes to trading MM. I would trade AM if the package is great. Point is, Leafs winning the Cup is the goal and not AM or MM leading the Leafs to a Cup.
If trading MM improve the team chances, why not. Same applies to any players.

The last two playoffs nylander and matthews both were terrible

 

[rumman]

Keefe did an impressive job IMO, catered to Dubas/Shanahan without getting fired. Kept his class. Took responsibility, unlike his players, for the failures. And he got hired for his next job by someone other than Dubas, which I thought was super important for him - you don't want to follow in the footsteps of Spezza. You have to establish yourself before you start making demands, even then you trend lightly. The boss is the boss.

Let me enlighten you on what a good boss does……they leave you alone to do your job, and when or if you have a problem, they support you or give you guidance to solve said problem. Leafs did neither for Keefe and I don’t even like the guy…….

 

[mikeyz]

that is sad

But true.

 

[Gabriel426]

The last two playoffs nylander and matthews both were terrible

They are all terrible.

What is your point?

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Remarkably enough comparing Marner to Clarke Macarthur isn't even the dumbest thing posted in this thread. Pretty close but the bar is set pretty high.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

There's literal video footage of Marner (multiple clips) doing this.




Try again goldfish.

BuT hE'S A gReat DefEnSiVe pLaYeR.....

What do you even do with someone who'll deny reality right in front of their eyes.

Ignore them. Stop responding to the Agenda Boys.

 

[Confucius]

People will lose their minds.

I'm starting to lean towards he'll be gone by camp.

Wouldn’t that be just leafy. Get rid of the guy who’s leg, well after the last playoff game was still black from the high ankle sprain and who is probably still hobbling around. But keep the migraine and mystery ailment guys.

 

[Gabriel426]

BuT hE'S A gReat DefEnSiVe pLaYeR.....


Ignore them. Stop responding to the Agenda Boys.

But it is hard as they will just keep coming at you.
Like the other day, I tried to tell my daughter to ignore the man in a dress but when he follows my daughter to the ladies room, I ended up identifying as the tooth fairy as I took a few of his teeth.

 

[arso40]

Marner doesn't have a compete issue either.

It is crazy to see people complain about production from Marner, and then also be the same people defending Hyman/Kadri (not sure you are that person).

Kadri had 10 points in 19 games
Hyman had 13 points in 32 games
Marner has 50 points in 57 games

Can someone make it make sense?

If marner isn't scoring he isn't bringing much else the other players were more physical get your team engaged kind of guys they brought more of the intangibles

 

[notbias]

If marner isn't scoring he isn't bringing much else the other players were more physical get your team engaged kind of guys they brought more of the intangibles

Marner is better defensively than either of them, so he can at least contribute there.

Kadri can be a spark at least, Hyman, not as much.

I'm not excusing Marner's play, just the criticism is wildly inconsistent depending on the player.

If a player sucks but looks like they try hard or is physical, they get a pass, which I think is weird.

 

[notdoneyet]

They are all terrible.

What is your point?

According to everyone on here there is only 1 person to blame

 

[hullsy47]

You aren't going to replace his production, very unlikely.
That doesn't mean the team can't be BETTER without him and with some 'good' pieces plugged in where you are improving in net AND on the blue line.
And I personally like Marner, I'm not for running him out of town. My post was mostly from the view of those who seemingly can't wait to get rid of him.

No long term period .pstrick kane

The last two playoffs nylander and matthews both were terrible

The whole yeam was built to fail

 

[57 Years No Cup]

There's a reason a former player like O'Dog is willing to state on the air how disappointed he is in Marner and how moving on from him is obviously the right move. Do you think if you showed him your spreadsheet he'd change his mind?

I'm just using him as an example because he has more credibility than the average media personality but it seems like 99% of people with an opinion share the opinion that Marner wilts in the playoffs. If you watch the guy play it's easy to see how different he is when the pressure is on, how do you not see it?

"“It's difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on not understanding it." -Upton Sinclair".

Ignore the "influencers".

 

[keonsbitterness]

According to everyone on here there is only 1 person to blame

Not that it would be easy, but there is only one who they can realistically move on from this summer.

 

[Gabriel426]

According to everyone on here there is only 1 person to blame

Only a few is really blaming it all on MM.
most here agree that the top guys all choked.
Nobody is saying AM played great or Willie was amazing.
Just that in comparison, they played better but it is really the tallest of the Hobbits.

 

[kb]

Where has @kb been? Taking a break from the Leafs?

Unintentional break......one of my brothers was in an ATV accident a few weeks back - he lost control and rolled down a 20' embankment into a lake.

He was lucky he wasn't pinned underwater. Finally out of the hospital and on the road to recovery.

He is a huge Leaf and Jays fan.

 

[Trapper]

Not that it would be easy, but there is only one who they can realistically move on from this summer.

If you’re going down the list, you’re trying to move on from the one who is the lesser goal scorer of the 3, the one who is the least productive as a series goes deep and someone you really don’t want to get into a contract salary war with. Someone who is most likely going to want 12+ million. Not feasible.
The core needs a change. We’ve stalled trying to take the next step.

 

[IPS]

If you’re going down the list, you’re trying to move on from the one who is the lesser goal scorer of the 3, the one who is the least productive as a series goes deep and someone you really don’t want to get into a contract salary war with. Someone who is most likely going to want 12+ million. Not feasible.
The core needs a change. We’ve stalled trying to take the next step.

Not only that but elite #1C's like Matthews just aren't around. You don't see anybody go anywhere without an elite #1C, they are an absolute must if you are to succeed. Yeah ours sucks in the playoffs, but there is no alternative other than pray that he figures out.

lots of teams however seem to be doing great without wingers of Marner's type, let alone one at $12M+.

 

[666]

Marner is better defensively than either of them, so he can at least contribute there.

Kadri can be a spark at least, Hyman, not as much.

I'm not excusing Marner's play, just the criticism is wildly inconsistent depending on the player.

If a player sucks but looks like they try hard or is physical, they get a pass, which I think is weird.

Dude, you're wasting your time. The haters have become a cult. A lot like maga. Enjoy the golf season.

 

[IPS]

"“It's difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on not understanding it." -Upton Sinclair".

That is a truly fantastic quote for this thread.

+1 like

 

[Gary Nylund]

I've said it 200 times, moving on from a player is fine if it makes us better.

I also don't care what most TV personalities think, out of the TSN crew, Johnson is one of the only ones I respect.

And yes, if you watch him play, and ignore half the series he's played, he wilts.

I think we've gotten to the point where letting Marner walk and taking the cap space is better than resigning him, that's how bad he's been.

I don't care what the TV guys say either, it's just that in this case they're in agreement with the massive majority that includes a number of people who know hockey, ex players and so on and we've all had it with Marner.

What scares me is that if he wilts this bad after we get past the first 4 games, and if that's because of him not being able to handle the pressure like I think it probably is, then could it get even worse once we get past the first round considering the pressure rises the deeper we get? The sample size is small as we've only been to the second round that one time but that one time, he bloody awful until we were down 3-0 and the pressure was off so the answer may well be that yes, he absolutely could get even worse as the pressure rises.

Bottom line, there is no reason to have any faith that he can make a meaningful contribution past the first 4 games of the playoffs. Maybe it can happen but considering how unlikely that seems, committing to him long term once again for top dollar seems like an incredibly stupid idea, that is if playoff success is the goal. If the goal is to just sell tickets and at least make the playoffs, then sure keeping him makes sense but as someone who desperately wants playoff success, I hope that's not what happens.

Unintentional break......one of my brothers was in an ATV accident a few weeks back - he lost control and rolled down a 20' embankment into a lake.

He was lucky he wasn't pinned underwater. Finally out of the hospital and on the road to recovery.

He is a huge Leaf and Jays fan.

Holy crap!

I had a bad accident a few years back, brain bleeding in two places, lying in Sunnybrook hospital in an induced coma, my wife was told no idea how things would turn out, that I might be in a wheelchair for life ... I'm fine now but I do know that serious accidents are serious business. Seriously!

So I'm sorry to hear about his accident but all's well that ends well, sounds like your brother is a lucky man, glad to hear it!

I'm also glad he's not a Habs fan, then I really wouldn't know what to say.

 

[Aashir Mallik]

There's literal video footage of Marner (multiple clips) doing this.




Try again goldfish.

There literallly two clips from the Boston series this year

1 against mcavoy and 1 against Swayman in game 7

Dude is scared of puck battles

 

[LeafEgo]

Friedman on LMT:

On CapFriendly:

• The Capitals bought the infrastructure, tools, and 3 employees.
• All the teams in the league build their own secret models - but it's expensive and labor intensive. A lot of teams, including Capitals, were paying CapFriendly to use their infrastructure & tools. Caps are a very analytically-driven organization that wanted to grow their department, so decided to buy it to expand their it.
• A number of teams used CF either in addition to what they had, or exclusively.
• Caps want and need mroe tools, so bought what already existed
• Says some teams have told him they were surprised that the site is still going. Felt the Capitals would have demanded that the site be shut down as soon as it was purchased. Believes there was a bit of a fight, but both have agreed to keep it open for the draft & opening of free agency
• Some teams don't think it will be an issue as they've worked on things internally (Calgary and Utah), but there are some teams that weren't too far along, and no CF will be an issue for them.
• There will be other sites and people to fill the void - mentions PuckPedia
• Thinks CF was sold for a 7-figure price, but can't confirm specific price.

On Marner:

• Doesn't believe there's anything new on the Marner situation
• Thinks people are under-estimating how complicated this whole thing is. Ferris has a history of taking his client to free agency.
• The contract Marner wants is a big issue. The NMC is also an issue
• Thinks Nylander has the thickest skin of anyone he's spoken to - just doesn't care, and nothing bothered him last season (playing as a pending UFA without an extension).
• Thinks people are really underestimating how sensitive everyone involved here is - everyone wants to come out of this looking like a winner. Questions the dressing room dynamics and how hard it would be to navigate next season if Marner comes back without an extension, seeing out the final year of his deal.
• Doesn't think the Leafs can give Marner the sort of money and term he's after in an extension, while already having Matthews and Nylander's big money deals on the books - can't try the same thing again
• Doesn't think Berube will be bothered by having Marner back as a pending UFA. Thinks the coach is confident enough in his abilities to get deal with that. Ponders whether the Leafs think the new ingredient of the head coach this year could bring about difference.
• Thought Keefe could be pretty hard on players like Nylander, but Keefe was always very careful when it came to Marner, because they felt Marner's sensitivities at times. Curious to see whether that changes under Berube
• Leafs put Nylander on the market last summer, and they didn't like the returns, so they kept him and started the year really well and got a good deal out of it. Wonders what happens if Marner comes out and starts the year very strong, and whether that changes anything.
• Thinks there are people within Leafs organization that are concerned about Marner becoming Kadri 2.0 - leaves, figures it out, becomes critical part of successful team, and people bring up that trade for years. Says Leafs publicly want people to know that they are not afraid of that, but what if Marner stays and starts the year like a house on fire. Thinks the pressure will be enormous to extend him, especially with Tavares money coming off the books.
• Unless they find a way to sell Marner on a move (which will not be easy), thinks this will go into next season. The best way to have a good year if you're Marner, is to play with Matthews
• Says he's knows Ferris for a long time and knows how he operates, and the one thing he knows is that Ferris is not giving up that free agency unless there's a huge contract offer from the Leafs or someone else.
• Marner's first choice is to stay - his family is here, and has a great setup here. Deep down, he understands that there's a possibility that this is it. Mentions that Keith Pelley can be a very tough negotiator, and wonders if that's one of the reasons why he was brought in here.
• Marner's first choice is to be a Leaf, but thinks deep down he knows Toronto has the choice here.
• Matthews has a really thick skin. Nylander has the thickest skin in the organization. Marner doesn't. If this goes into next year without a resolution, we know how it's giong to be in the marketplace, and he's not sure if Marner is ready for that.
• Expects Vegas to be around Marner - they are smart and always are around good players. Has people hypothesizing a package with Shea Theodore and Logan Thompson deals, for example.

On Leafs Offseason:

• Thinks Leafs love Markstrom, but thinks it's too complicated a deal for Leafs to make - thinks LA and New Jersey are better suited to make that trade.
• Brossoit is interesting option - better make sure you have a third, like Martin Jones, because Woll and Brossoit don't equal 82 games. Wonders if they aim higher, and then fall back on Brossoit if they can't get a bigger name in
• Thinks that even though the organization really values and thinks highly of Woll, they'll go out and get the best possible goalie they can find. Woll has trouble staying healthy. If he goes down, who is the guy that makes you feel best? Thinks they will aim higher than Brossoit
• Think the like Zadorov, Tanev, Montour, Pesce, and Walker. Thinks they like all of them. Believes the Leafs will try and get 2 of those guys. Believes Zadorov will hit market, but there will be plenty of interest there from other teams. Thinks Dallas is trying to get something done with Tanev, but believes if he hits market the offers will be high. Believes Ottawa might do something for Tanev. Believes Florida will try to find a way to keep Montour. Walker will get plenty of interest. Pesce wanted 6x6 from Carolina, but believes Canes were comfortable at 5x5.
• Domi - wants term. Thinks Toronto is nervous about term. Thinks it gets done with both teams can find comfortable term.
• Bertuzzi - thinks Leafs really want to bring him back, but want to be very careful about term.
• Thinks if the Leafs lose these players, it'll be due to the Leafs not wanting to hand out term, not AAV.

That's an interesting tidbit about the Pelley hire. If he's a superstar negotiator, that was likely top of the recruitment criteria to plug a major gap, generally speaking.

In the now, I had mentioned previously about the Leafs going nuclear - bringing up Marner next year under the Leafs being the WMD path nobody would be excited about pursuing - being potentially necessary to secure a win.

It would take a lot of balls, followed by a complicated and risky battle. Perhaps that is something Pelley is equipped to navigate successfully? I'm not sure how capable Ferris is, don't really know his history in detail, but he's genuinely confident, which would be a concern.

 

[notbias]

I think we've gotten to the point where letting Marner walk and taking the cap space is better than resigning him, that's how bad he's been.

Treliving misused $20 million, imagine what he could do with an extra $10 million.

I don't think cap space is valuable unless used correctly and our board has way too much faith in GMs (not just Treliving) to use it correctly.

I don't care what the TV guys say either, it's just that in this case they're in agreement with the massive majority that includes a number of people who know hockey, ex players and so on and we've all had it with Marner.

I don't think they are a majority, mind you, they may be, but I think they are the loudest.

The same people who want Marner gone are the same people who wanted Nylander gone and now say how great he is.

These people are just miserable and always need something to complain about.

What scares me is that if he wilts this bad after we get past the first 4 games, and if that's because of him not being able to handle the pressure like I think it probably is, then could it get even worse once we get past the first round considering the pressure rises the deeper we get? The sample size is small as we've only been to the second round that one time but that one time, he bloody awful until we were down 3-0 and the pressure was off so the answer may well be that yes, he absolutely could get even worse as the pressure rises.

Nylander and Matthews can't handle round 2 either if you are using that as a sample size.

Bottom line, there is no reason to have any faith that he can make a meaningful contribution past the first 4 games of the playoffs. Maybe it can happen but considering how unlikely that seems, committing to him long term once again for top dollar seems like an incredibly stupid idea, that is if playoff success is the goal. If the goal is to just sell tickets and at least make the playoffs, then sure keeping him makes sense but as someone who desperately wants playoff success, I hope that's not what happens.

The first 4 games count.

I guess if the team was really serious they wouldn't have signed the 65 point winger either, but they did.

I'll finish by saying, if they can improve, then move him, but moving him just because seems silly.

What was your opinion on moving 2 of our worst playoff performers Hyman and Kadri?

 

[Evilhomer]

People will lose their minds.

I'm starting to lean towards he'll be gone by camp.

I think they will be fully entitled to lose their minds in that scenario. Maybe common sense will prevail and everyone will agree that moving on is the right outcome (honestly, probably more so for the player than the team).