Mitch Marner, Yet Again

[ToneDog]

.5% less than Pasta, 13%.

13.5% would give him $12.9m on a cap of $95.5m. Question is, is he worth the same cap hit as Pasta when Pasta is clearly the better player? He's basically painted himself into a corner now. Deep run and try to get every last nickel from the Leafs or leave.

 

[ToneDog]

.5% less than Pasta, 13%.

That is $12.4m based on a cap of 95.5m. So if he deserves more than Willie and less than Pasta, he should fall between $12.4m and $12.9m. Trouble is he wants much more than the rumored Leafs $13m ceiling. I won't miss him when he walks. Honestly, I am tired and bored of watching his soft perimeter game.

 

[francis246]

He said "cap %" which is still relevant. His question has nothing to do with "out dated". In actual $ Marner may get more than Pasta, but that wasn't his question. Is Marner worth more than 13.5% of the cap, given Pasta signed at that cap hit %?

is it marners fault, these stars take less?

Pastrnak is worth more than 13.5%. I'd bet if he knew the projected numbers now, he'd probably would have signed for more. Hockey players are just too loyal and honestly (financially stupid, morally rich) when it comes to the business side. It's apart of hockey culture, but a lot of these guys have taken less than market value and it boggles my mind. Maybe its the cap restrictiveness, but yeah idk.

 

[francis246]

That is $12.4m based on a cap of 95.5m. So if he deserves more than Willie and less than Pasta, he should fall between $12.4m and $12.9m. Trouble is he wants much more than the rumored Leafs $13m ceiling. I won't miss him when he walks. Honestly, I am tired and bored of watching his soft perimeter game.

I think Marner signs for 12.5, he's not getting 13 IMO. I think he's done in Toronto, I don't think he wants to be in this market anymore. Personally I think he has a leaf price and a price for all other teams. Maybe a strong playoff run changes how he feels but it just feels like he's ready to move on.

 

[mclaren55]

is it marners fault, these stars take less?

Pastrnak is worth more than 13.5%. I'd bet if he knew the projected numbers now, he'd probably would have signed for more. Hockey players are just too loyal and honestly (financially stupid, morally rich) when it comes to the business side. It's apart of hockey culture, but a lot of these guys have taken less than market value and it boggles my mind. Maybe its the cap restrictiveness, but yeah idk.

I don't care either way, I was just trying to clarify the other respondents post.

Maybe some guys want to win, and part of that formula in a cap constricted sport is to "buy in", which means taking less to add depth. Boston has fostered that culture since Chara. Whether or not that is stupid or not depends on what you value. There's more to life than having the biggest paycheque for some, just as for others the inverse is true in respect to championships.

I've known plenty of people who've left highly lucrative fields and found more rewarding work with significant pay reductions and seem happier. Life's complicated.

 

[francis246]

I don't care either way, I was just trying to clarify the other respondents post.

Maybe some guys want to win, and part of that formula in a cap constricted sport is to "buy in", which means taking less to add depth. Boston has fostered that culture since Chara. Whether or not that is stupid or not depends on what you value. There's more to life than having the biggest paycheque for some, just as for others the inverse is true in respect to championships.

I've known plenty of people who've left highly lucrative fields and found more rewarding work with significant pay reductions and seem happier. Life's complicated.

for sure, the fiancially stupid vs morally rich is just a tongue and cheek term i've used with my friends. everyone values things differently

 

[ToneDog]

is it marners fault, these stars take less?

Pastrnak is worth more than 13.5%. I'd bet if he knew the projected numbers now, he'd probably would have signed for more. Hockey players are just too loyal and honestly (financially stupid, morally rich) when it comes to the business side. It's apart of hockey culture, but a lot of these guys have taken less than market value and it boggles my mind. Maybe its the cap restrictiveness, but yeah idk.

Probably but IIRC he stuck to his number until the Bruins finally caved in March. The Bruins also refused to budge from their number when Marchand met with them and begged to stay. The Leafs treat their stars with kitty glove because they are afraid to lose them. The stars pay them back by folding like a cheap tent in the playoffs.

 

[sunstersun]

I’ve watched the games my friend, that’s why I’m confident in Berube taking them farther in the playoffs this year than Bozo the Keefe did in half a decade.

That’s why you need to actually watch the games and not just look at the box score. Then again, if you have no idea what you’re watching, glancing at the stat sheet is probably more useful.

I watch the games, the box scores are more generous than the eye test.

We've gotten caved in so many times this season. Bailed out by goal tending. That Florida game easily could have been 7-0.

 

[mikeyz]

He will be run out of town. Just watch. After they get crushed by Florida and he is a non factor media/fans will make his decision for him. Off to the cottage for the summer in Muskoka and a new 7 year deal somewhere else.

If that happens, it would be justified wouldn’t it?

 

[Sundinisagod]

is it marners fault, these stars take less?

Pastrnak is worth more than 13.5%. I'd bet if he knew the projected numbers now, he'd probably would have signed for more. Hockey players are just too loyal and honestly (financially stupid, morally rich) when it comes to the business side. It's apart of hockey culture, but a lot of these guys have taken less than market value and it boggles my mind. Maybe its the cap restrictiveness, but yeah idk.

Perhaps it’s not other players taking less. Rather, it is Marner taking more.

And sorry, I don’t see signing a 90 million dollar contract as financially stupid. There is a balancing act with money and everything else. Squeezing your team for every last penny has not worked out that great for Marner, the team or the fans. To this point in time that is what he’ll be remembered for, tarnished his legacy for a contract he could never live up to.

 

[Donnie740]

I watch the games, the box scores are more generous than the eye test.

We've gotten caved in so many times this season. Bailed out by goal tending. That Florida game easily could have been 7-0.

First of all, WTF is with is referencing the Leafs as “we”? You have ZERO affiliation with the franchise, so why use the pronoun “we”?

I’m 100% certain that Berube will have more playoff success than Bozo the Keefe. Just as I was 100% certain that Kyle Dumbass is a hopelessly incompetent GM - - which has been proven correct by the debacle in Pittsburgh.

Notice how the Dubas Fan Boi Club disappeared from this forum? They don’t want it rubbed in their face and it’s impossible to spin the Pittsburgh dumpster fire as anything other than a catastrophic failure. So they just STFU and disappeared.

And that’s exactly what I expect the Berube doubters and Marner haters to do. Because I’ll be reminding all the Leaf bandwagon “fans” about it.

 

[arso40]

First of all, WTF is with is referencing the Leafs as “we”? You have ZERO affiliation with the franchise, so why use the pronoun “we”?

I’m 100% certain that Berube will have more playoff success than Bozo the Keefe. Just as I was 100% certain that Kyle Dumbass is a hopelessly incompetent GM - - which has been proven correct by the debacle in Pittsburgh.

Notice how the Dubas Fan Boi Club disappeared from this forum? They don’t want it rubbed in their face and it’s impossible to spin the Pittsburgh dumpster fire as anything other than a catastrophic failure. So they just STFU and disappeared.

And that’s exactly what I expect the Berube doubters and Marner haters to do. Because I’ll be reminding all the Leaf bandwagon “fans” about it.

You sound like an idiot

 

[Sundinisagod]

First of all, WTF is with is referencing the Leafs as “we”? You have ZERO affiliation with the franchise, so why use the pronoun “we”?

I’m 100% certain that Berube will have more playoff success than Bozo the Keefe. Just as I was 100% certain that Kyle Dumbass is a hopelessly incompetent GM - - which has been proven correct by the debacle in Pittsburgh.

Notice how the Dubas Fan Boi Club disappeared from this forum? They don’t want it rubbed in their face and it’s impossible to spin the Pittsburgh dumpster fire as anything other than a catastrophic failure. So they just STFU and disappeared.

And that’s exactly what I expect the Berube doubters and Marner haters to do. Because I’ll be reminding all the Leaf bandwagon “fans” about it.

Yeah please tell us how right you were after the first round, I’m sincerely looking forward to that…hopefully you don’t pull a disappearing act yourself.

 

[Donnie740]

Yeah please tell us how right you were after the first round, I’m sincerely looking forward to that…hopefully you don’t pull a disappearing act yourself.

Can’t wait - - I’m looking forward to it even more than you are.

It must be terrible for Leaf “fans” to be actively cheering AGAINST the team, desperately hoping to justify their hatred of Berube and Marner.

Sorry about your luck, my friend.

 

[thewave]

Can’t wait - - I’m looking forward to it even more than you are.

It must be terrible for Leaf “fans” to be actively cheering AGAINST the team, desperately hoping to justify their hatred of Berube and Marner.

Sorry about your luck, my friend.

False narrative. We just aren't appealing to authority and have been consistent since the issues were happening all the way back in the MTL series. This is about winning a cup and not players winning highest contract in the NHL awards. Most teams say show me winning and we will show you money. Reverse happen in Toronto and it comes with player complaints and hurt feelings in Toronto. Totally weak attitude and absent of results. Who wouldn't be pissed off.

 

[Sundinisagod]

Can’t wait - - I’m looking forward to it even more than you are.

It must be terrible for Leaf “fans” to be actively cheering AGAINST the team, desperately hoping to justify their hatred of Berube and Marner.

Sorry about your luck, my friend.

For the record, I have absolutely nothing against Berube, he is not the weak link here.

Are you a betting man ??

 

[Aashir]

Can’t wait - - I’m looking forward to it even more than you are.

It must be terrible for Leaf “fans” to be actively cheering AGAINST the team, desperately hoping to justify their hatred of Berube and Marner.

Sorry about your luck, my friend.

not a single person here doesn't want the team to win, especially in the playoffs.

Even a marner hater like Antropovsky would love to see us win rounds.

Most fan's just don't believe they can actually win, that doesn't mean they cheer against the team.

As for berube, without using "check the eye-test" or having the evidence round back to "goaltending being the best its been in ~20 years", what's he done differently than Keefe?

Seperated M&M when they are playing awful? Nope we saw last night he stuck with them

Run three seperate lines? Nope loaded top 6

Bench guys when deserved? Nope marner/matthews/nylander/tavares even rielly can do whatever the hell
they want and they won't get benched but robertson will need to be scratched to send a message

Special Teams? They are probably worse than other years, we have a top 5ish PP but a top 15ish PK which is very similar to every year

Core 4 play? It's about the same as with keefe, Marner plays his two-way hockey with alot of time at the point. Nylander coasts half the games and tries the other half. Tavares is scoring more, but the effort is the same as always. Matthews is having his patented down year where he is closer to nick suzuki than nathan mackinnon

The team is still designed so that we need each of the core 4 to be above ppg to stand a shot at making a run, and we are lucky to get 2 of them being ppg. I'd love for them to prove me wrong but they didn't last year or the year before or so on.....

 

[francis246]

Perhaps it’s not other players taking less. Rather, it is Marner taking more.

And sorry, I don’t see signing a 90 million dollar contract as financially stupid. There is a balancing act with money and everything else. Squeezing your team for every last penny has not worked out that great for Marner, the team or the fans. To this point in time that is what he’ll be remembered for, tarnished his legacy for a contract he could never live up to.

Meh I don’t think his legacy will be tarnished either way. He’s gonna have success somewhere else if he leaves, whether that’s individual or team based. It’ll be just like all the other guys who left, good player couldn’t get it done here. The contract stuff doesn’t really play a factor for me in how I’ll remember him, business is business. But I understand if it does for some fans.

And I disagree, I think this cap system unequivocally forces players to take less. That is the whole purpose and design of the cap system, control player salaries so that there is more parity.

And im sick of this narrative of Marner squeezing the leafs. He was an RFA. The team gave him the money because they believed in him. Marner and Ferris didn’t hold a gun to Dubas’ head. The organization proves they were willing to let stars sit. They did it with Willy and took it to the day before camp with Marner.

 

[francis246]

not a single person here doesn't want the team to win, especially in the playoffs.

Even a marner hater like Antropovsky would love to see us win rounds.

Most fan's just don't believe they can actually win, that doesn't mean they cheer against the team.

As for berube, without using "check the eye-test" or having the evidence round back to "goaltending being the best its been in ~20 years", what's he done differently than Keefe?

Seperated M&M when they are playing awful? Nope we saw last night he stuck with them

Run three seperate lines? Nope loaded top 6

Bench guys when deserved? Nope marner/matthews/nylander/tavares even rielly can do whatever the hell
they want and they won't get benched but robertson will need to be scratched to send a message

Special Teams? They are probably worse than other years, we have a top 5ish PP but a top 15ish PK which is very similar to every year

Core 4 play? It's about the same as with keefe, Marner plays his two-way hockey with alot of time at the point. Nylander coasts half the games and tries the other half. Tavares is scoring more, but the effort is the same as always. Matthews is having his patented down year where he is closer to nick suzuki than nathan mackinnon

The team is still designed so that we need each of the core 4 to be above ppg to stand a shot at making a run, and we are lucky to get 2 of them being ppg. I'd love for them to prove me wrong but they didn't last year or the year before or so on.....

Nah Antro would be happier to see the leafs fail with Marner than succeed with Marner, that’s pretty evident.

 

[notbias]

Probably but IIRC he stuck to his number until the Bruins finally caved in March. The Bruins also refused to budge from their number when Marchand met with them and begged to stay. The Leafs treat their stars with kitty glove because they are afraid to lose them. The stars pay them back by folding like a cheap tent in the playoffs.

Marchand is not a star anymore, Boston caved to their star...

Not following the logic here.

 

[Aashir]

Meh I don’t think his legacy will be tarnished either way. He’s gonna have success somewhere else if he leaves, whether that’s individual or team based. It’ll be just like all the other guys who left, good player couldn’t get it done here. The contract stuff doesn’t really play a factor for me in how I’ll remember him, business is business. But I understand if it does for some fans.

And I disagree, I think this cap system unequivocally forces players to take less. That is the whole purpose and design of the cap system, control player salaries so that there is more parity.

I feel like it'll be more than that, even business stuff aside, just strictly on ice product based.

That sentence applies to Sundin and Gilmour. They had deep runs with their teams having less support than current versions. They also didn't disappear as much as our current group does

If Marner (this applies to Matthews too) leave, I think most will not view them in that light, they'll probably be labelled guys who fell apart when the games got tough. The term is "chokers".

Nah Antro would be happier to see the leafs fail with Marner than succeed with Marner, that’s pretty evident.

If he enjoys a first round exit with Marner who then walks vs a stanley cup win with marner he might be the one in a million.

He's incredibly biased in the RS, but you've gotta believe a cup matters more to everyone (including him) than individual players.

 

[notbias]

Perhaps it’s not other players taking less. Rather, it is Marner taking more.

And sorry, I don’t see signing a 90 million dollar contract as financially stupid. There is a balancing act with money and everything else. Squeezing your team for every last penny has not worked out that great for Marner, the team or the fans. To this point in time that is what he’ll be remembered for, tarnished his legacy for a contract he could never live up to.

Do people trust Treliving to spend the cap well?

Treliving already has multiple bad signings in the two years he has been here, not sure why everyone freaks over paying Marner a million too much when we do it on depth.

I always think it is weird that people think this will tarnish his legacy.

 

[notbias]

If Marner (this applies to Matthews too) leave, I think most will not view them in that light, they'll probably be labelled guys who fell apart when the games got tough. The term is "chokers".

Or they will be like Hyman or Kadri, who people view as playoff studs now because they've played well outside of Toronto.

Neither of those players played even half as well as Marner or Matthews here in the playoffs.

Tkachuk is another player who sucked until he didn't when he moved teams.

 

[francis246]

I feel like it'll be more than that, even business stuff aside, just strictly on ice product based.

That sentence applies to Sundin and Gilmour. They had deep runs with their teams having less support than current versions. They also didn't disappear as much as our current group does

If Marner (this applies to Matthews too) leave, I think most will not view them in that light, they'll probably be labelled guys who fell apart when the games got tough. The term is "chokers".


If he enjoys a first round exit with Marner who then walks vs a stanley cup win with marner he might be the one in a million.

He's incredibly biased in the RS, but you've gotta believe a cup matters more to everyone (including him) than individual players.

I would bet my mortgage that if Marner led the leafs in playoff scoring and had a couple goals but they lost for example. He’d still find a way to blame it on Marner or if the team does go in a run and Marner is outstanding he’s be in this thread telling everyone how his points don’t matter because of the location of his points. Someone like that, that to me, is a troll. Not a fan.

As for their legacy it’ll be up to individual people. I don’t really view Sundin higher than these three and I grew up in the Sundin era. These players are better. I also try to look at the whole picture. Imagine if we had a health Andersen against Montreal.. the guy quit and refused to play.we saw it in the Amazon doc. While the stars have under performed there’s been some really unfortunate mitigating factors that also factored in.

 

[Donnie740]

False narrative. We just aren't appealing to authority and have been consistent since the issues were happening all the way back in the MTL series. This is about winning a cup and not players winning highest contract in the NHL awards. Most teams say show me winning and we will show you money. Reverse happen in Toronto and it comes with player complaints and hurt feelings in Toronto. Totally weak attitude and absent of results. Who wouldn't be pissed off.

It’s been the exact same problem for Toronto every year in the playoffs - - terrible goaltending and even worse coaching.

Bozo the Keefe got badly outcoached every single year. The guy has ZERO concept of line matching as evidenced by his abysmal home ice playoff record.

Any idea what his record is when he had last change in the playoffs? An unbelievably bad 7-13.

How humiliating was it to get outcoached by a junior league hack like Dom Ducharme and blow a 3-1 series lead to a far weaker team?

Last year when the power play was struggling at 1-for-21, the “adjustment” Bozo the Keefe made was to put JarnCrap on the power play.

He decided to start a proven loser like Samsonov the Sieve in Game 1 and got blown out. Instead of coming back with Woll, Bozo the Keefe just kept rollout Samsonov the Sieve. And the. Comes back with him AGAIN in Game 7 instead of Martin Jones. Predictably, it cost Toronto the series.

Bozo the Keefe is a God-awful hockey coach. He was the main problem holding Toronto back from post season success. You’re going to see this proven out in the playoffs this year.