But his primary points / 60 on a Wednesday are down, so he sucks now, despite this arguably being his best season.
Mitch Marner, Yet Again
- Thread starter hangman006
- Start date
But his primary points / 60 on a Wednesday are down, so he sucks now, despite this arguably being his best season.
Lol... are you mad?
You said Marner's dip in points was because he was injured. That was YOUR argument, not mine.
I pointed out that he actually had a higher P/60 in the seven games after his return. Which is all that remained in the season.
Now you're saying I'm cherry-picking those seven games as a "gotcha."
You're the one who said his stats dipped because of injury—you’re the one who chose the seven-game sample, not me.
This is exactly what I’m talking about. Absolute madness.
Martin Skoula
Registered User
- Oct 18, 2017
- 11,690
- 17,903
Are we more defensive? Seems like we’re pacing for the ~4th worst GA since Matthews and Marner entered the league despite having the best goaltending of that period.
Actually, you’re misrepresenting my point. (What’s new, very on brand for you) I never said Marner’s entire dip was just because of injury… I’m pointing out that injury, along with other factors like Matthews’ struggles and the team’s and that lines overall inconsistency at the time, had an effect on Marner’s 5v5 p/60 over the course of an ENTIRE SEASON. Those are the contextual factors that should be considered.
I’m not cherry-picking the seven-game sample either. What I’m saying is that you can’t isolate one small stretch and claim it proves something while ignoring the broader picture. I’ve already acknowledged Marner’s strong performance after returning, but you can’t ignore everything that led up to that and pretend it wasn’t relevant.
This whole back annd forth BS about stats seems like an attempt to avoid talking about the full context of the season when it comes to posting stats. Which is something you fail to do over and over.
It feels like we are for some reason..Maybe because we close out leads better but it might just be a mirage.
Either way, Marner's points are at the same level while our team scoring is down over the last four years is the main point.
Moving towards a more defensive team? It's only pacing 11 goals less than 2023.
Goals are down but Nylander and Tavares 5v5 goals are up?
Seems the big drop is by Matthews and Marner (becoming a trend). Ive posted the stats numerous times, Matthews was considerably more productive without Marner on his line in BOTH 2023 and 2024. This year he hasn't been away from him really at all.
Last year Matthews and Marner couldn't get anything going early in the season and Keefe split them up...Matthews subsequently got hot.
Guess who was blamed for Matthews and Marners slow start last year ... Marner.
Don't believe me, here is a sportsnet article explaining it. Keefe says Marner specifically hasn't been good enough, Marner agrees.
It's crazy to me that you either remembered this quote or researched a 10 game stretch where Marner wasn't playing well from 18 months ago.
Even more crazy that you think it proves anything.
You were the one who brought up Marner’s injury, not me. So you referenced those seven games—then later accused me of cherry-picking them, which is pretty ironic.
And even that argument doesn’t hold up, because his P/60 in those seven games was actually higher than before his injury.
So, not only does your argument make no sense, but you also blamed me for cherry-picking the very games you chose to support your point.
Oh, I remember it, I’ve posted it many times in the past.
Lol, it proves nothing? Matthews scored 69 goals last year, but with little help from Marner. In fact, Marner was actually holding him back, and even Keefe acknowledged that Marner, in particular, was playing bad.
Matthews stats have been significantly better over the last two seasons without Marner which I’ve shown many times with supporting stats.
This year, Tavares and Marner xGF is much lower than their xGA, something like xGF 2.00 to xGA 2.46. Sure, they’ve outscored their opponents, but remember when the Leafs were red-hot under Carlyle, yet analytics community kept pointing out their terrible underlying numbers? And sure enough, they collapsed as expected.
So the idea that Marner is struggling this year because Matthews isn’t producing doesn’t hold much weight, there’s plenty of evidence that Matthews has been struggling with Marner on his line for a while now. And there is evidence Tavares too.
Last edited:
He didn’t remember.. I brought it up as one of the many factors to why context is needed for Marner’s dip in 5v5 production was down last year. Matthews and Marner were not clicking in November. I remembered that because I remember wondering what Matthews goal total could have been if he had not had like 1 goal in 8 or 10 during that stretch. He’s now using that factor to blame Marner lmao.
LOL, this is exactly what I expected. You’re still fixated on that seven game stretch and acting like I was the one who made that the focus. I never said his entire dip was just because of injury. I pointed out multiple factors that impacted his 5v5 P/60 over the course of the entire season.
You’re zeroing in on those seven games after he returned and using them to try and dismiss everything that came before. That’s cherry picking in a nutshell. now you’re pretending that I’m the one who narrowed the focus to that sample? Give me a f***ing break.
If you’re going to argue context, actually engage with the full context of the season instead of holding onto a tiny stretch to make a point that ignores everything else.
Lol... the same dry spell that the Sportsnet article referenced with Keefe and the Sportsnet writer AND Marner acknowledging it was Marner who was struggling?
Matthews went dry because OF Marner lol. He got hot after Marner was taken off his line.
You're calling it a coincidence?
Also... They had similar dry spells the year before too.
Matthews in two seasons was considerably more productive WITHOUT Marner, that's consistency and also indicates Marner drags Matthews down. The data is 50% with and 50% out over two full seasons... thats as good a sample size as your gonna get in the NHL.
Genuine question, why the focus on the last two years as opposed to the entire time they’ve played together to get a more complete view? What’s the basis for using the last 2 years as opposed to using every season from 2019 onwards?
isolating just the past two seasons feels like it ignores important data from previous years IMO, like Matthews’ success with Marner in 2019-2020 and 2020/21
And you’re telling me from 2019 to 2025 there’s no data that suggests Matthews had productive years playing with Mitch Marner?
Aren’t we brain galaxying this a bit? 3 very different coaches over the years have settled on it. It’s a hell of a top line. Just give the top 2 lines 20m each and figure out the split on the last 20m between the bottom 2. That’s how it’s gotta be. It’s gonna work or it isn’t, one more time. The top 2 pairings work best how it is.
Marner had a bad 2020, its late but this is per natural stat trick. Looks like Marners season was majorly saved by playing with 5v5 stat booster Matthews. Definitely a pattern here. Meanwhile Matthews seen minimal uptick playing with 11 million Marner vs other players.
Matthews:
- With Marner: 536 minutes, 2.46 points per 60
- Without Marner: 615 minutes, 2.26 points per 60
- Total: 1151 minutes, 2.34 points per 60
- Points per 60 Increase (with Marner): 0.20
Marner:
- With Matthews: 536 minutes, 2.8 points per 60
- Without Matthews: 347 minutes, 1.22 points per 60
- Total: 883 minutes, 2.17 points per 60
- Points per 60 Increase (with Matthews): 1.58
Last edited:
He will cherry pick anything trying to make it seem like Marner sucks, best just to ignore and move on.
- Dec 12, 2017
- 22,607
- 12,728
Playoffs. It’s all about the playoffs. Let’s see what he does with this chance.I guess score points at an elite pace is "not much he is willing to do" in you mind?
- Dec 12, 2017
- 22,607
- 12,728
How does someone with his skill grow up a Leafs fan admiring Doug Gilmour and play like he does? Particularly in the playoffs. If it’s frustrating watching it, I wonder how he feels living it? How can 100 point player be one of the biggest unknowns and concerns on a team heading into the playoffs. But that’s what he is.
Come on man lol.. Marner was born in 1997, He didn’t grow up admiring Gilmour. By the time he started watching hockey and could cognitively understand who that was, Gilmour was a Montreal Canadian or played one game with the Leafs. I think maybe that’s something his dad mentioned to him that he could be the next Gilmour. Marner is young, he did not know prime Gilmour, im a few years older than him. I do remember watching Gilmour but it’s hazy even for me. I remember him more as a Devil than I do as a leaf.
- Dec 12, 2017
- 22,607
- 12,728
666
Registered User
- Jun 27, 2005
- 3,085
- 1,189
You've been lying about watching the games "for quite some time now" or "a month or two". You don't even know how long. Maybe you always "have the game on but am doing other things". Who knows? Either way nothing you say can be believed any more.
It’s a tribute to his brother’s birth year. I think once he got drafted to the leafs they added on the Gilmour thing and Gilmour gave him permission to wear it. I think it was a marketing thing which isn’t uncommon with athletes to find ways to connect with fans.
I'm sure he feels fine .
He just answered you. Did you not read?
Why Nineteen67? Such a fan eh.
666
Registered User
- Jun 27, 2005
- 3,085
- 1,189
Notice how you got ignored? It's because this stupid argument while showing that Marner is still somewhat better than Domi, it also shows that Domi is better than Nylander and JT. He conveniently left that part out of course. Last two seasons: 5v5
This guy has also admitted that he doesn't watch the games.
