Mitch Marner, Yet Again

[francis246]

In 2023 and 2024 Matthews scored 64 5v5 goals.

Marner had a primary assist on JUST 15 of those 64 goals. Thats just 23%.

Meanwhile Matthews had a primary assist on 9 of Marners 31 5v5 goals, or 29%. So Matthews had more of an impact on Marner goals than Marner on Matthews goals. And certainly nobody has ever called Matthews the modern day Gretzky.

LMAO 41%... LMAO @francis246, you @Leaf Fans need to should stick to plus minus stats.

I’m so done with you LOL. @666 was spot on. You’re disingenuous and you constantly move the argument when you can’t answer or explain what is being challenged. I’m glad everyone has gotten to see you for the awful poster you are.

You move goal posts every chance you get. Your original post included both primary and secondary assists, so that’s what we all calculated. Now you’re focusing on just primary assists and also combining the 2022/23 season and 2023/24. When you were very clear about talking about the 2023/24 season. Disgusting behaviour honestly. Zero integrity.

 

[Antropovsky]

I’m so done with you LOL. @666 was spot on. You’re disingenuous and you constantly move the argument when you can’t answer or explain what is being challenged. I’m glad everyone has gotten to see you for the awful poster you are.

You move goal posts every chance you get. Your original post included both primary and secondary assists, so that’s what we all calculated. Now you’re focusing on just primary assists and also combining the 2022/23 season and 2023/24. When you were very clear about talking about the 2023/24 season. Disgusting behaviour honestly. Zero integrity.

LMAO

This is what we know so far:

- Matthews scores SIGNIFICANTLY more than Marner
- Matthew contributes more primary assist/goal for Marner than Marner does for him. Marner contributed first assists on just 23% on Matthews goals, while Matthews contributed first assists on 29% on Marner goals.
- Matthews being significantly more productive without Marner in 2023 and 2024, while playing approx 50% without Marner.

Here's that graph one more time showing Matthews stats with and without Marner in 2023 and 2024:

Jeez what more evidence do you need that Marner is riding Matthews coat tails hard?

 

[francis246]

LMAO

This is what we know so far:

- Matthews scores SIGNIFICANTLY more than Marner
- Matthew contributes more primary assist/goal for Marner than Marner does for him. Marner contributed first assists on just 23% on Matthews goals, while Matthews contributed first assists on 29% on Marner goals.
- Matthews being significantly more productive without Marner in 2023 and 2024, while playing approx 50% without Marner.

Here's that graph one more time showing Matthews stats with and without Marner in 2023 and 2024:

View attachment 997886

Jeez what more evidence do you need that Marner is riding Matthews coat tails hard?

You’re still avoiding the original point. We already established that Marner contributed 41% of Matthews’ goals in 2023-24, higher than any other Leaf, and among the league leaders. That’s not ‘riding coattails,’ that’s contributing significantly. But sure, keep changing the argument and cherry-picking stats if it makes you feel better…

You’ve moved the goalposts so many times that I’m not even sure you remember your original point. Everyone can see it. I’m good, brother.

*someone yesterday said they wouldn’t be surprised if your account is some AI bot, I am starting to believe that haha. The responses are not making sense, lack a sense of personality, very stats driven and ordered points.

 

[Antropovsky]

Mitch Gretzky Marner has now gone 19 consecutive games without a 5v5 primary assist. One more game and he will have gone 1/4 of a season of consecutive games without a primary assist. Damn that's bad for a player whose supposedly such a good playmaker that he shouldn't be judged on playoff goals.

 

[Antropovsky]

You’re still avoiding the original point. We already established that Marner contributed 41% of Matthews’ goals in 2023-24, higher than any other Leaf, and among the league leaders. That’s not ‘riding coattails,’ that’s contributing significantly. But sure, keep changing the argument and cherry-picking stats if it makes you feel better…

You’ve moved the goalposts so many times that I’m not even sure you remember your original point. Everyone can see it. I’m good, brother.

Contributing 41% of total assists (primary and secondary) on a linemates 5v5 goals is among the league wide leaders? Where did you get these stats? How did you calculate it?

 

[Leaf Fans]

@francis246 and @Leaf Fans. Ill save this post so next time you play dumb to me posting these stats, ill just paste this chat.

Matthews 5v5 stats with and without Marner in 2023 and 2024. Notice how Matthews stats are significantly more productive when he was without Marner.

Looking forward to your responses:

2023 Season:
Total Minutes: 1145
Minutes with Marner: 539
% Minutes without Marner: 52.93%
P/60 with Marner: 2.00
Minutes without Marner: 606
P/60 without Marner: 3.36

2024 Season:
Total Minutes: 1241
Minutes with Marner: 720
% Minutes without Marner: 41.98%
P/60 with Marner: 2.75
Minutes without Marner: 521
P/60 without Marner: 3.23


View attachment 997833

No one plays dumb toward you. You just got your agenda exposed once again.

 

[Gary Nylund]

You’re still avoiding the original point. We already established that Marner contributed 41% of Matthews’ goals in 2023-24, higher than any other Leaf, and among the league leaders. That’s not ‘riding coattails,’ that’s contributing significantly. But sure, keep changing the argument and cherry-picking stats if it makes you feel better…

You’ve moved the goalposts so many times that I’m not even sure you remember your original point. Everyone can see it. I’m good, brother.

*someone yesterday said they wouldn’t be surprised if your account is some AI bot, I am starting to believe that haha. The responses are not making sense, lack a sense of personality, very stats driven and ordered points.

Why is this supposed to be some sort of feather in his cap? It seems like Marner's benefitting a ton from playing with Matthews - pass the puck to him and boom, it's in the net.

 

[francis246]

Why is this supposed to be some sort of feather in his cap? It seems like Marner's benefitting a ton from playing with Matthews - pass the puck to him and boom, it's in the net.

Didn’t you just say 2 pages ago it’s difficult to tell who’s benefitting from who?

Besides that, it’s not the point, idc if Marner is benefitting. That’s not what we’ve been discussing. Please don’t start with me, it has nothing to do with the convo I’m having currently, no one’s arguing that point.

 

[Antropovsky]

No one plays dumb toward you. You just got your agenda exposed once again.

As per usual you are ignoring these stats. What's your thoughts on Matthews being significantly more productive without Marner on his line? You keep ignoring it... exposing your agenda.

 

[Leaf Fans]

As per usual you are ignoring these stats. What's your thoughts on Matthews being significantly more productive without Marner on his line? You keep ignoring it... exposing your agenda.

I think Matthews is an excellent player. I don't ignore anything.

 

[arso40]

He had a decent game today

 

[Dave92]

100pts should be the floor not a career best for a winger asking for 14 million. Adios

 

[Antropovsky]

Why is this supposed to be some sort of feather in his cap? It seems like Marner's benefitting a ton from playing with Matthews - pass the puck to him and boom, it's in the net.

Didn’t you just say 2 pages ago it’s difficult to tell who’s benefitting from who?

Besides that, it’s not the point, idc if Marner is benefitting. That’s not what we’ve been discussing. Please don’t start with me, it has nothing to do with the convo I’m having currently, no one’s arguing that point.

This is Marners stats with and without Matthews in 2022 and 2023. Marners stats are significantly worse without Matthews. Interestinly, Matthews stats are significantly better without Marner in the same span. I havent taken the time to really consixdr what it means. Crunched the numbers fast, feel free to verify accuracy.

*note the data is 2022-2023 and 2023-2024 seasons.

5v5:

 

[arso40]

This is Marners stats with and without Matthews in 2022 and 2023. Marners stats are significantly worse without Matthews. Interestinfly, Matthews stats are significantly better without Marner in the same span. I havent taken the time to really consixdr what it means.

5v5:

View attachment 997926


View attachment 997925

Damn where’d you find this?

 

[Antropovsky]

Damn where’d you find this?

I created it. Someone can verify numbers if they like, here they are in non graph;l:

2023​

• With Matthews:
  • Goals per 60: 0.92
  • First Assists per 60: 1.33
  • Second Assists per 60: 0.75
  • Total Points per 60: 3.00
• Without Matthews:
  • Goals per 60: 0.51
  • First Assists per 60: 1.77
  • Second Assists per 60: 0.02
  • Total Points per 60: 2.30

2024​

• With Matthews:
  • Goals per 60: 1.33
  • First Assists per 60: 1.45
  • Second Assists per 60: 0.44
  • Total Points per 60: 3.23
• Without Matthews:
  • Goals per 60: 0.61
  • First Assists per 60: 0.84
  • Second Assists per 60: 0.74
  • Total Points per 60: 2.19

 

[arso40]

I created it. Someone can verify numbers if they like, here they are in non graph;l:

2023​

• With Matthews:
  • Goals per 60: 0.92
  • First Assists per 60: 1.33
  • Second Assists per 60: 0.75
  • Total Points per 60: 3.00
• Without Matthews:
  • Goals per 60: 0.51
  • First Assists per 60: 1.77
  • Second Assists per 60: 0.02
  • Total Points per 60: 2.30

2024​

• With Matthews:
  • Goals per 60: 1.33
  • First Assists per 60: 1.45
  • Second Assists per 60: 0.44
  • Total Points per 60: 3.23
• Without Matthews:
  • Goals per 60: 0.61
  • First Assists per 60: 0.84
  • Second Assists per 60: 0.74
  • Total Points per 60: 2.19

A point less/60 that’s not too drastic of a drop off it’s clear Hes better with than without for sure not many players would be though would they?

 

[thewave]

I created it. Someone can verify numbers if they like, here they are in non graph;l:

2023​

• With Matthews:
  • Goals per 60: 0.92
  • First Assists per 60: 1.33
  • Second Assists per 60: 0.75
  • Total Points per 60: 3.00
• Without Matthews:
  • Goals per 60: 0.51
  • First Assists per 60: 1.77
  • Second Assists per 60: 0.02
  • Total Points per 60: 2.30

2024​

• With Matthews:
  • Goals per 60: 1.33
  • First Assists per 60: 1.45
  • Second Assists per 60: 0.44
  • Total Points per 60: 3.23
• Without Matthews:
  • Goals per 60: 0.61
  • First Assists per 60: 0.84
  • Second Assists per 60: 0.74
  • Total Points per 60: 2.19

Ok. So with Matthews we know he is on a 100pt pace typically. How about without? What would Marner be without Matthews? Point per game player or less?

 

[arso40]

Ok. So with Matthews we know he is on a 100pt pace typically. How about without? What would Marner be without Matthews? Point per game player or less?

Still has to be a point a game player

 

[Antropovsky]

A point less/60 that’s not too drastic of a drop off it’s clear Hes better with than without for sure not many players would be though would they?

Not many players get to play with a Matthews caliber 5v5 player in the first place. In his first 3 seasons in the league, Matthews led the league in 5v5 g/60 with 1.52. Next closest was 1.33 g/60.

Guess what, he and Marner were hardly ever on a line during that period.

 

[arso40]

Not many players get to play with a Matthews caliber 5v5 player in the first place. In his first 3 seasons in the league, Matthews led the league in 5v5 g/60 with 1.52. Next closest was 1.33 g/60.

Guess what, he and Marner were hardly ever on a line during that period.

Oh I remember well everyone else was brown nylander kapanen Johnson to name a few

 

[Leaf Fans]

100pts should be the floor not a career best for a winger asking for 14 million. Adios

I don't think that is Marner as one of the criticisms of him is that there have been no negotiations with the team.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Didn’t you just say 2 pages ago it’s difficult to tell who’s benefitting from who?

IIRC I said something like it's difficult to tell who benefits more.

Besides that, it’s not the point, idc if Marner is benefitting. That’s not what we’ve been discussing. Please don’t start with me, it has nothing to do with the convo I’m having currently, no one’s arguing that point.

I was just asking a question as I was curious, I didn't mean to upset you and I wasn't "starting with you". You're making a big deal about this 41% or WE, I was just wondering why you think this number is so meaningful as you seem to think. If you can't or don't want to explain that's fine, but this is a public forum, not a "convo" and people ask questions all the time.

Can you explain why my question has "nothing to do with the convo"? I ask because it seems to me like it does.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Mitch Gretzky Marner has now gone 19 consecutive games without a 5v5 primary assist. One more game and he will have gone 1/4 of a season of consecutive games without a primary assist. Damn that's bad for a player whose supposedly such a good playmaker that he shouldn't be judged on playoff goals.

This streak freaks me out a bit, I sure hope he doesn't "streak" this in the playoffs. Then again, if it means we get to 19 games played in the playoffs, maybe I do.

 

[Gary Nylund]

This is Marners stats with and without Matthews in 2022 and 2023. Marners stats are significantly worse without Matthews. Interestinly, Matthews stats are significantly better without Marner in the same span. I havent taken the time to really consixdr what it means. Crunched the numbers fast, feel free to verify accuracy.

5v5:

View attachment 997926


View attachment 997925

This is also quite surprising. I would have bet a lot that Marner has a positive impact but if this is accurate, it's ... surprising.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

Damn where’d you find this?

Most stats sites let you download the spreadsheets so all you gotta do is open them in Excel and make your own graphs and charts.