Mitch Marner, Yet Again

I've never seen those two live up to their potential in the playoffs. I remember getting destroyed by the Bergeron line. Those guys looked so good, I can only dream of our guys playing that well. On paper (and based on cap hit) they shouldn't be taking a back seat to Bergeron or anyone else really, but they've just never been able to do it.

To put it another way, I guess you could say that M&M have never "played the way they should", at least not in the playoffs.



Biggest issue Marner/Matthews/ Nylander had was on PP. By exemple Edmonton last year in 1 playoff run had 6 more goal scored than leafs pp last 5 years in playoff

So one person says marner was robbed playing on the third line and your saying Hes played the toughest matchups his entire career which one is it cause it cant be both

In thatbserie

bergeron line vs marner-plekanec-Marleau recorded 2 GF vs 3 GA ( who had been the line they played the most time against)

vs rest of team 6 GF vs 2 GA

make your own opinion
 
Biggest issue Marner/Matthews/ Nylander had was on PP. By exemple Edmonton last year in 1 playoff run had 6 more goal scored than leafs pp last 5 years in playoff
Yep, the PP has been brutal. There's an old adage about goaltending and special teams being critical for playoff success so that's been a big part of why we keep failing.

M&M&JT all produce much less offence in the playoffs then they do during the regular season, that's the bottom line. Even strength, PP, hell I don't care if they score on the PK but these guys simply have to find a way to put the puck in the net when it matters most.
 
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The point we’re are making is that even this, is false and still needs to be proven. Besides the small sample size there is no evidence to even suggest that on a long term basis putting Domi on the top line and using Marner’s money to be allocated elsewhere is a smart move.

Look at how many variables would have to go right for that to happen. Domi would actually have to be consistent and produce like a top line player. You’d have to hit on every other free agent that you then replace Marner’s cap dollars with. The chances of everything working perfectly is probably less than 5%. Outside of one season in Montreal, Domi doesn’t have a track record of being a top line producer. Matthews would need to be producing at his regular clip and be healthy. Domi has multiple 9 goal seasons at the NHL level LOL. Banking on him to be the answer to the top line as a cost saving measure is incredibly stupid based on a small sample size. The leafs also know this, hence why he hasn’t gotten an extended look there. I’m sure they saw the numbers from last season, but there either is something in his game they don’t like enough to put him back up there, his defensive metrics are terrible or Matthews prefers Marner.

No one is saying, be afraid to replace Marner and not use his cap savings, but Domi is NOT the answer for the top line, not even close.
That’s your opinion his job would be get matthews the pucc that’s his specialty shouldn’t be hard
 
Biggest issue Marner/Matthews/ Nylander had was on PP. By exemple Edmonton last year in 1 playoff run had 6 more goal scored than leafs pp last 5 years in playoff



In thatbserie

bergeron line vs marner-plekanec-Marleau recorded 2 GF vs 3 GA ( who had been the line they played the most time against)

vs rest of team 6 GF vs 2 GA

make your own opinion
Got it
 
There's no way to tell if the team would be better or worse with different lines, that's the bottom line.

I think the line of thought goes something like this, if Domi with Matthews produces the same, or even more offence then it's worth considering. Now clearly Marner is better on D than Domi so that's something to consider, but if you put Marner on some other line instead of Domi, that line should also be much better right? Hard to measure these things exactly but this seemed to work pretty well last season, and I'm a bit annoyed that Berube hasn't even tried it. Yes Berube's the coach, yes he has "the data", but that doesn't mean he always makes smart decisions. If it was that simple then every coach would always do everything right but I think we can agree that that's not the case.

You also have to account for the human element. That’s why I’m saying, maybe Matthews prefers playing with Marner compared to Domi. Maybe Berube values the defensive side of the puck more than the offensive. It’s very dependent on the coaching style and how the coach wants to play.

That’s why I’m saying the leafs have all the info, but something is preventing them from making that switch. Only they know.. it could be little minor things that they’ve noticed. I doubt they haven’t tried it just because.
 
You also have to account for the human element. That’s why I’m saying, maybe Matthews prefers playing with Marner compared to Domi. Maybe Berube values the defensive side of the puck more than the offensive. It’s very dependent on the coaching style and how the coach wants to play.

That’s why I’m saying the leafs have all the info, but something is preventing them from making that switch. Only they know.. it could be little minor things that they’ve noticed. I doubt they haven’t tried it just because.
Doesn’t matter what you prefer it’s the coaches job to decide what’s best for the team I’m sure mcd wants to play with drai if it’s not what’s best for the team it shouldn’t happen especially when we’ve won 1 round In 8 years
 
Colorado? Washington? Tampa? Many teams haven't sold off their stars and have won.

Maybe it is the wrong move, but just because they lost before doesn't mean they will keep losing.

McDavid has 0 titles and has been there longer, sell him and Drai? Who cares if they got close, they still can't win, right?



The Matthews line is top 5 (probably higher) in the league, and for some reason, people want to break it up... their stats are amazing.
Everyone cares if they get close. If you listened to the radio, tv, podcasts, X, you name it, every person’s evaluation of the core is based around the fact they haven’t gotten close, like McDavid and Drai have, nor have they been the difference makers in a series.
It’s amazing you haven’t grasped that concept despite the fact it’s explained to you almost everyday.
 
Doesn’t matter what you prefer it’s the coaches job to decide what’s best for the team I’m sure mcd wants to play with drai if it’s not what’s best for the team it shouldn’t happen especially when we’ve won 1 round In 8 years

The coaches decisions are telling you what he feels is best for the team. That is Domi playing on 3rd line.
 
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Yep, the PP has been brutal. There's an old adage about goaltending and special teams being critical for playoff success so that's been a big part of why we keep failing.

M&M&JT all produce much less offence in the playoffs then they do during the regular season, that's the bottom line. Even strength, PP, hell I don't care if they score on the PK but these guys simply have to find a way to put the puck in the net when it matters most.

everyone need to be better... nobody had been good enough and not just about production but overal

a guy who's scoring 10 goal but allowing 15 is not better than a guy scoring 5 allowing nothing only because he scored 10.

The goal at the end still scoring more than your opponent whatever how. Nobody would complain winning 1-0 on 3 rd OT but everyone would still complaining losing 10-9 and get high stats. Only thing matter is winning whatever how
 
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everyone need to be better... nobody had been good enough and not just about production but overal

a guy who's scoring 10 goal but allowing 15 is not better than a guy scoring 5 allowing nothing only because he scored 10.

The goal at the end still scoring more than your opponent whatever how. Nobody would complain winning 1-0 on 3 rd OT but everyone would still complaining losing 10-9 and get high stats. Only thing matter is winning whatever how
I just looked at it nylanders plus minus is better every other year with marner getting a 2 year period 2021-2023 one plays with matthews one doesn’t and that’s last years production we need to put to bed this narrative as well marner was a minus player twice and nylander was a minus player 3 times so yes they need to win their minutes for sure but marner last year was tied for 4th in scoring with a plus 1 which wouldn’t be bad if it wasn’t a total of 3 points 1 less than domi and bertuzzi who also played 7 games matthews who played 5 games and tied with nylander who only played 4 games and had all his points be the last 3 goals we scored as a team marner had 1 goal 2 assists I remember the goal came in a blow out where he did the through the legs deke they all need to bring it or be held accountable no favouritism
 

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You also have to account for the human element. That’s why I’m saying, maybe Matthews prefers playing with Marner compared to Domi. Maybe Berube values the defensive side of the puck more than the offensive. It’s very dependent on the coaching style and how the coach wants to play.

That’s why I’m saying the leafs have all the info, but something is preventing them from making that switch. Only they know.. it could be little minor things that they’ve noticed. I doubt they haven’t tried it just because.
We're all speculating of course, nobody knows what the thought process is. I will say that Matthews wanting to play with Marner should 100% not be a factor. I would even say that Matthews shouldn't even say he wants to play with Marner, he should keep his yap shut except to say whatever you want coach, I'm ready. This goes for every player, but especially for the captain who is supposed to lead by setting a good example for the rest of the team.
 
We're all speculating of course, nobody knows what the thought process is. I will say that Matthews wanting to play with Marner should 100% not be a factor. I would even say that Matthews shouldn't even say he wants to play with Marner, he should keep his yap shut except to say whatever you want coach, I'm ready. This goes for every player, but especially for the captain who is supposed to lead by setting a good example for the rest of the team.

That’s one thing we can agree on and to be clear I don’t think Matthews storms the office and says put me back with Marner. He’s played with different people and hasn’t complained. But it’s no secret players have preferences and comfortabilities and all coaches and every level want their best players to feel the best they can. So to say that it shouldn’t be considered isn’t realistic. It’s going to be considered. Matthews may feel that he plays his best with Marner (speculative ofc), he’s a 60-70 goal scorer with him, ofc the coach will consider that
 
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everyone need to be better... nobody had been good enough and not just about production but overal

a guy who's scoring 10 goal but allowing 15 is not better than a guy scoring 5 allowing nothing only because he scored 10.

The goal at the end still scoring more than your opponent whatever how. Nobody would complain winning 1-0 on 3 rd OT but everyone would still complaining losing 10-9 and get high stats. Only thing matter is winning whatever how
Everyone needs to be better, I mean OK I mostly agree with that although in every playoff series there are some players who earn their cap hits but whatever. The first people that need to better are the star players with the biggest cap hits as they are supposed to lead by example and set the tone and collectively. Some people complaining about the supporting cast M%M&JT have been nowhere near good enough in the playoffs IMO and they also make way more money than the supporting cast, that's why they deserve more blame. JMHO.

My favorite sports quote of the last few years comes from Patrick Mahomes - "if I play better, everyone will play better". IIRC he followed up that line with a version of "we can and we will" and I wish we had that kind of leadership on the team. If only our stars were as determined to win as our management group are to pay them ...
 
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I just looked at it nylanders plus minus is better every other year with marner getting a 2 year period 2021-2023 one plays with matthews one doesn’t and that’s last years production we need to put to bed this narrative as well marner was a minus player twice and nylander was a minus player 3 times so yes they need to win their minutes for sure but marner last year was tied for 4th in scoring with a plus 1 which wouldn’t be bad if it wasn’t a total of 3 points 1 less than domi and bertuzzi who also played 7 games matthews who played 5 games and tied with nylander who only played 4 games and had all his points be the last 3 goals we scored as a team marner had 1 goal 2 assists I remember the goal came in a blow out where he did the through the legs deke they all need to bring it or be held accountable no favouritism

Plus / minus on its own is not a reliable stat. Players get a plus on a line change for doing nothing. It also doesn’t take into account QoC. Plus / Minus unless really positive or really negative isn’t a strong indicator of anything significant. Too many not accounted for variables (special teams not included)
 
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That’s one thing we can agree on and to be clear I don’t think Matthews storms the office and says put me back with Marner. He’s played with different people and hasn’t complained. But it’s no secret players have preferences and comfortabilities and all coaches and every level want their best players to feel the best they can. So to say that it shouldn’t be considered isn’t realistic. It’s going to be considered. Matthews may feel that he plays his best with Marner (speculative ofc), he’s a 60-70 goal scorer with him, ofc the coach will consider that
It hasn’t amounted to much so if we can get Matthews normal production with out marner and marners normal production without matthews that’s a top 9 that no one in the league wants to deal with on top of a steady defence group but who knows maybe they’ll dominate in a heavy top 6 format
 
Plus / minus on its own is not a reliable stat. Players get a plus on a line change for doing nothing. It also doesn’t take into account QoC. Plus / Minus unless really positive or really negative isn’t a strong indicator of anything significant. Too many not accounted for variables (special teams not included)
I agree I wasn’t the one that felt the need to bring it up so it cant be useless when I rebut it but fine when someone else is using it doesn’t work that way so if we’re scrapping it we’re scrapping it shouldn’t be a topic of discussion when it’s convenient
 
Yes, I hate to break it to you, but pro sports is complex. Do you think coaches make decisions based on one thing? Or do you think many variables affect decision making?
I’m just trying to understand what your saying it’s hard to reply without understanding
 
I agree I wasn’t the one that felt the need to bring it up so it cant be useless when I rebut it but fine when someone else is using it doesn’t work that way so if we’re scrapping it we’re scrapping it shouldn’t be a topic of discussion when it’s convenient

That’s fair. I think you can use other stats to look at overall defensive impact but it works both ways, players get a minus for literally stepping on the ice at the wrong time.
 
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Plus / minus on its own is not a reliable stat. Players get a plus on a line change for doing nothing. It also doesn’t take into account QoC. Plus / Minus unless really positive or really negative isn’t a strong indicator of anything significant. Too many not accounted for variables (special teams not included)
It can be meaningful over the course of the entire season but certainly can lose context in an individual game.
Marner's -2 last night is a prime example.
 
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It can be meaningful over the course of the entire season but certainly can lose context in an individual game.
Marner's -2 last night is a prime example.
Yeah I don’t think he was necessarily deserving of a dash 2 but he also didn’t really have a great game
 
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