Mitch Marner, Yet Again

[666]

So all the rankings from ESPN, Sportsnet, The Hockey News, NHL Network, and TSN who've had lists throughout various years that have had Rantanen ranked ahead of Marner are all "puck watchers" too?

I don't base my valuation of player values on anything other than my knowledge.

 

[arso40]

1.) we don’t know if he thinks one is slightly better than the other. Rantanen has a case for making more money due to Higher goals

2.) all reports are that mikko would have signed here, Dallas or Florida. Rod said there was a 4th team. Don’t know who that was

3.) Marner has not talked contract. Mikko would have.

So would you trade a gaurantee of 8 years of mikko for Marner if he wants to leave?

Even IF we like Marner better, I take 8 years of mikko now before “let’s hope for the best in June”.

It’s not apples to apples.

Edmonton

 

[Legion34]

Edmonton

Not sure how they were going to do that.

They have 14 million in space,

Needing Bouchard and another LW on top of rantanen.

Bouchard was like 8 probably?

 

[francis246]

Not sure how they were going to do that.

They have 14 million in space,

Needing Bouchard and another LW on top of rantanen.

Bouchard was like 8 probably?

Bouchard might be signing a bridge deal that lines him up for UFA at the same time as Cale Makar and they get rid of Kanes 5 million dollar cap hit. That gives them close to 20 million. I also think they would dump skinner probably.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I don't base my valuation of player values on anything other than my knowledge.

I think that's obvious, but maybe you should reconsider.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

It's so hard to believe the threat of Marner walking in free agency is even a possibility.

The fact it's even a discussion tells us how incompetent this team's management is. It never should have reached this point. I don't understand how anyone could think the Toronto Maple Leafs are in good hands right now.

They're not.

Marner should have been traded before his NMC kicked in. If they go out in the first and he walks for free that's a fireable offence. On the other hand commiting to this core any longer would be insane.

They're damned if they do, damned if they don't.

I assume Treliving's solution is going to be the same as Dubas. Throw as much money at Marner as necessary. It really amounts to nothing more different than Marner being a schoolyard bully.

You better keep paying me if you want me to stay your friend.

Or else...

 

[666]

I said "just look at the "4 months of Rantanen (unsigned) for 4 months of Marner (unsigned)". Sorry you missed that.

Do you think that being willing to trade a player for another doesn't mean you think the other player is better (or at least better suited to your needs)? Do you think Tre would consider the trade if he thought he was getting the bad end?

There is nothing wrong with my post, but possibly just with your understanding of it.

I'll try another approach. I'll just repeat most of legion34's post which you liked:

1.) we don’t know if he thinks one is slightly better than the other.
2.) all reports are that mikko would have signed here, Dallas or Florida. Rod said there was a 4th team. Don’t know who that was
3.) Marner has not talked contract. Mikko would have.
So would you trade a guarantee of 8 years of mikko for Marner if he wants to leave?
Even IF we like Marner better, I take 8 years of mikko now before “let’s hope for the best in June”.

Interesting, that's pretty well what I said which you disagreed with then doubled down on, over and over.

While being hilarious, you are disingenuous, can't think and not worth engaging with.

 

[hullsy47]

Rantanen took less than market value. He was offered a bigger contract in Carolina. He got paid in bonuses and had positive tax implications. Plus he wanted to live in a city.

I don’t think anyone with a straight face can deny he took less than market value

Well the leafs front load their contracts too
And marner apperently wants to stay in toronto
Sure u pay tax but these guys get to invest their money for the year july 2st
So they are getting interest on 10 sheets so they do ok

 

[notDatsyuk]

I'll try another approach. I'll just repeat most of legion34's post which you liked:

1.) we don’t know if he thinks one is slightly better than the other.
2.) all reports are that mikko would have signed here, Dallas or Florida. Rod said there was a 4th team. Don’t know who that was
3.) Marner has not talked contract. Mikko would have.
So would you trade a guarantee of 8 years of mikko for Marner if he wants to leave?
Even IF we like Marner better, I take 8 years of mikko now before “let’s hope for the best in June”.

Interesting, that's pretty well what I said which you disagreed with then doubled down on, over and over.

While being hilarious, you are disingenuous, can't think and not worth engaging with.

His post, and I see you only quoted part, really wasn't relevant to what we were discussing, which you avioded.

But I agree you are being disingenuous again, so I agree you are not worth engaging with.

 

[ACC1224]

Rantanan and Marner aren't really comparable players, their value would be different depending on the team.
For the Leafs, Marner would bring more value for his play making and all around play since they already have Matthews and Nylander scoring the goals.
For many other Teams they would have more of a need for Rantanan.

Nylander would be a better Rantanan comparable here and I think we all would agree on who we'd take there.

 

[GoonieFace]

I guess people don’t realize that players like Nylander and Rantanen can both score and facilitate. They can create their own offence. Marner does not have seem to have the ability to create his own offence, hence the need to pass more often. He simply does not have the speed or strength of a Nylander or Rantanen.

 

[Sundinisagod]

It's so hard to believe the threat of Marner walking in free agency is even a possibility.

The fact it's even a discussion tells us how incompetent this team's management is. It never should have reached this point. I don't understand how anyone could think the Toronto Maple Leafs are in good hands right now.

They're not.

Marner should have been traded before his NMC kicked in. If they go out in the first and he walks for free that's a fireable offence. On the other hand commiting to this core any longer would be insane.

They're damned if they do, damned if they don't.

I assume Treliving's solution is going to be the same as Dubas. Throw as much money at Marner as necessary. It really amounts to nothing more different than Marner being a schoolyard bully.

You better keep paying me if you want me to stay your friend.

Or else...

Are you blaming Treliving for not trading Marner before his NTC kicked in? I think Treliving was hired about a week prior to the NTC kicking in, and Shanahan basically just let go of Dubas for suggesting it was time to make changes. Treliving had neither the time or blessing to trade Marner. Why did Marner get 2 years protection when Matthews and Nylander only had their final years protected iirc.

 

[arso40]

Rantanan and Marner aren't really comparable players, their value would be different depending on the team.
For the Leafs, Marner would bring more value for his play making and all around play since they already have Matthews and Nylander scoring the goals.
For many other Teams they would have more of a need for Rantanan.

Nylander would be a better Rantanan comparable here and I think we all would agree on who we'd take there.

WRONG lol any competent gm that is getting both players at the same price would take rantanen playoff performance and regular season performance are both better now to the leafs specifically nylander and matthews both are capable playmakers so we wouldn’t take marner over him hence the attempted trade I get the certainty being a factor but your wrong rantanen has proven to be a better player than both

 

[Martin Skoula]

Are you blaming Treliving for not trading Marner before his NTC kicked in? I think Treliving was hired about a week prior to the NTC kicking in, and Shanahan basically just let go of Dubas for suggesting it was time to make changes. Treliving had neither the time or blessing to trade Marner. Why did Marner get 2 years protection when Matthews and Nylander only had their final years protected iirc.

He had a full month from his official hiring date, and was in talks with the team for weeks prior where you’d assume he would have to do his homework and tell them what his plans were for the team. If the argument is that he took a job where he was told that he’s not allowed doing what he thinks is best for the team, so be it, but a month is enough time to get a trade done.

 

[arso40]

I guess people don’t realize that players like Nylander and Rantanen can both score and facilitate. They can create their own offence. Marner does not have seem to have the ability to create his own offence, hence the need to pass more often. He simply does not have the speed or strength of a Nylander or Rantanen.

It’s amazing how people can ignore information when it doesn’t suit them id throw matthews in there as well the top players do both marner does one really good

 

[keonsbitterness]

2.) all reports are that mikko would have signed here, Dallas or Florida. Rod said there was a 4th team. Don’t know who that was

Edmonton

He had a full month from his official hiring date, and was in talks with the team for weeks prior where you’d assume he would have to do his homework and tell them what his plans were for the team. If the argument is that he took a job where he was told that he’s not allowed doing what he thinks is best for the team, so be it, but a month is enough time to get a trade done.

His hands were tied because Shanahan called the core after Dubas was fired and told them they would not be traded.

 

[Legion34]

It's so hard to believe the threat of Marner walking in free agency is even a possibility.

The fact it's even a discussion tells us how incompetent this team's management is. It never should have reached this point. I don't understand how anyone could think the Toronto Maple Leafs are in good hands right now.

They're not.

Marner should have been traded before his NMC kicked in. If they go out in the first and he walks for free that's a fireable offence. On the other hand commiting to this core any longer would be insane.

They're damned if they do, damned if they don't.

I assume Treliving's solution is going to be the same as Dubas. Throw as much money at Marner as necessary. It really amounts to nothing more different than Marner being a schoolyard bully.

You better keep paying me if you want me to stay your friend.

Or else...

Shanny is the common denominator here. Tre didn’t have a choice. He came here knowing the core was staying

 

[ACC1224]

Edmonton

His hands were tied because Shanahan called the core after Dubas was fired and told them they would not be traded.

There were reports he shop Nylander around but didn't like the return

Shanny is the common denominator here. Tre didn’t have a choice. He came here knowing the core was staying

I don't believe that to be true. It doesn't make sense that a GM of his stature would come in and not be allowed to do what he sees fit.

 

[keonsbitterness]

There were reports he shop Nylander around but didn't like the return

Yeah, but that was late summer/early fall after initial negotiations had stalled. Shanahan prevented any possible trade from the Dubas firing until June 30 when Matthews, Marner and Nylander had no trade restrictions. Nylander could still be shopped after July 1 because he didn't have a full NMC.

 

[ACC1224]

Yeah, but that was late summer/early fall after initial negotiations had stalled. Shanahan prevented any possible trade from the Dubas firing until June 30 when Matthews, Marner and Nylander had no trade restrictions. Nylander could still be shopped after July 1 because he didn't have a full NMC.

So his hands weren't tied then, he was able to move a player if he wished.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Rantanan and Marner aren't really comparable players, their value would be different depending on the team.
For the Leafs, Marner would bring more value for his play making and all around play since they already have Matthews and Nylander scoring the goals.
For many other Teams they would have more of a need for Rantanan.

Nylander would be a better Rantanan comparable here and I think we all would agree on who we'd take there.

I thought people were saying Rantanen was somewhat dependent on others to help him produce, so in that way he's more like Marner than Nylander.

And even playing on the top line with better players, Rantanen over the last 5 seasons has averaged fewer goals/60 and points/60 at 5on5 than Nylander. Willy is also less injury prone. If you have to pick between Ranatnen and Nylander, Rantanen might win, but the choice would probably be a lot closer.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Edmonton

His hands were tied because Shanahan called the core after Dubas was fired and told them they would not be traded.

That’s fine but then he voluntarily took the job knowing the limitations it came with, he either agrees with those limitations or he’s a replaceable yes man of minimal consequence.

 

[Gabriel426]

Why is Willie being mentioned with Rantanen and MM?

Canes prefers MM over Willie while Tre prefers Rantanen over MM, Tre also prefers Willie over MM.
Or else Canes would had asked for Willie for Rantanen or Tre countered Canes proposal with Willie instead of MM.

That's what happened according to the info made public.

No need to break it down a million times and build narratives.

Maybe Canes only asked for MM in order to raise the price from the Stars, or Canes did wanted MM and thought he is a better fit than Rantanen. Nomatter what the case may be, Tre could had said NO or countered right away but he didn't. He literally asked MM would he waive and go to the Canes. That should put it to rest as to what Tre thinks of MM, Willie and Rantanen.

 

[Gabriel426]

That’s fine but then he voluntarily took the job knowing the limitations it came with, he either agrees with those limitations or he’s a replaceable yes man of minimal consequence.

Honestly, I don't think Scotty Bowman or even the late Quinn would had trade any of our Core 5 within one month of the job as Leafs GM.

The fact that Leafs seems like the only team that can't get their players to waive their NTC or NMC is a concern. Not sure is it the GMs or TO culture.

 

[keonsbitterness]

So his hands weren't tied then, he was able to move a player if he wished.

Yeah, circumstances around Nylander changed. The complaint by that other poster was about when Tre was hired and no one had a NMC or NTC.