Mitch Marner, Yet Again

[Sundinisagod]

Oh, is Rantanen with the Leafs now? I missed that.

No, Treliving tipped his hand that they would consider moving on from an unsigned Marner for a signed Rantenan but with the full NMC he is giving that away with the possibility of souring things and ending up with nothing.

This isn’t super complicated. It was not a smart move.

You got things backwards. Souring relationships is the Marner camp specialty.

 

[Legion34]

Okay, then what are you honestly complaining about then?

The poster is repeatedly saying that
1.) Marner is similar to Drai and should be paid as such (but probably less because Drai took 15.9% of the cap)
2.) this is NOT true because he is comparing Drai taking 14 and claiming it is based on an 88.5 cap and Marner would be taking less because it was a 95.5 cap in the same year.

both contracts start next year

3.) that he claims that Marner is better and should be paid more than pasta and rantanen and similar to Matthews/drai.

4.) that Marner was held back because he had to play with JVR and bozak when “pretty much everyone else” got to play with better players as rookies in the NHL

 

[francis246]

The poster is repeatedly saying that
1.) Marner is similar to Drai and should be paid as such (but probably less because Drai took 15.9% of the cap)
2.) this is NOT true because he is comparing Drai taking 14 and claiming it is based on an 88.5 cap and Marner would be taking less because it was a 95.5 cap in the same year.

both contracts start next year

3.) that he claims that Marner is better and should be paid more than pasta and rantanen and similar to Matthews/drai.

4.) that Marner was held back because he had to play with JVR and bozak when “pretty much everyone else” got to play with better players as rookies in the NHL

The only player held back in the first couple seasons was maybe Willy.

Matthews scored 40 in his first season and paced for more than 40 in the two subsequent seasons. He wasn’t held back at all by Hyman, Brown or Willy. Auston was held back because he couldn’t stay healthy and then was afraid of contact for 2 years.

Both Auston and Mitch were placed in the best position to succeed. Man I’m having flash backs to Willy and Auston in the PP scoring cross ice one timers.. what a freaking time that was.

 

[arso40]

The only player held back in the first couple seasons was maybe Willy.

Matthews scored 40 in his first season and paced for more than 40 in the two subsequent seasons. He wasn’t held back at all by Hyman, Brown or Willy. Auston was held back because he couldn’t stay healthy and then was afraid of contact for 2 years.

I wouldn’t say Willy was held bacc he just didn’t put it together as fast as the other two

 

[Leaf Fans]

Can Carolina take him right now?

Sure, but he wouldn't be eligible for the playoffs.

 

[francis246]

I wouldn’t say Willy was held bacc he just didn’t put it together as fast as the other two

There you go, all I’m saying is the argument that’s been between Dekes and Legion is so dumb. They are both wrong. Neither player was held back. They both had a lot of opportunities early in their careers

 

[Lightsol]

The worlds biggest wuss, that's who. If he leaves, that sends the message that he doesn't think he has any chance of winning here so he just gives up, says "no mas", and goes down as the biggest wuss in team history, maybe even the biggest wuss in NHL history.

OR, another quick reminder: More evidence of why we tend not to sign Toronto-born players as often as, say, Montreal signs Quebec-born ones... Because the fans and the media turn on Toronto-born players MUCH faster than anyone else. Seriously, you're going to drive Marner and Tavares out of town and then try to convince Sam Bennett it would be great for his career to sign here? Or McDavid in a year? Why, so the fans and the media can rip them apart too?

I suspect if the Leafs let Marner go after the circus that has been the last couple of years with this fanbase and this media, it'll be years before they can sign UFA's without massive overpayments. It certainly wouldn't be the first time UFA's actively avoided this team due to factors other than the team...

 

[keonsbitterness]

I find it hard to believe Drai's agent (or any agent) didn't have solid intel last summer and fall about what the 25-26 cap would be. It's part of their job to know.

 

[francis246]

A big question is how much does Marner care about his legacy? Unless the team breaks through this spring (a megahugemassive if obviously), if he leaves now after 9 years, he'll always be known in his home town, the capital of the hockey world, as the guy who was assistant captain of a team that will be remembered as the biggest playoff failures in team history, and one of the biggest (if not the biggest) playoff failures in NHL history.

Or he could stay, and if he helps turn things around and go on even one deep playoff run, most fans will forget all the playoff losses, and he will compile enough points to own multiple all-time Leaf records and of course take his place on legends row.

If he believes there's even a small chance that this team can go deep, then staying is the obvious choice, because the upside is just so humungous, he still has a chance to make all his childhood dreams come true. Take a ton of money, plus millions in endorsements that he won't get anywhere else, and have a chance to be a hero in capital of the hockey world forever, also not possible anywhere else. And if he does have success, those endorsement dollars will keep rolling in as long as he lives, most likely that means tens millions more in his pocket so leaving would be an incredibly stupid move financially speaking. So why would he leave? Who would leave and leave that possible upside on the table?

The worlds biggest wuss, that's who. If he leaves, that sends the message that he doesn't think he has any chance of winning here so he just gives up, says "no mas", and goes down as the biggest wuss in team history, maybe even the biggest wuss in NHL history.

Was Tavares a wuss for leaving the island and signing with us? What about Chara leaving Ottawa and signing with Boston? Or hossa leaving PIT to sign in DET, then eventually Chicago and winning? Or was Jack Eichel a wuss for demanding a trade? Or how about Matthew Tkachuk? You gotta keep it consistent.

 

[arso40]

Was Tavares a wuss for leaving the island and signing with us? What about Chara leaving Ottawa and signing with Boston? Or hossa leaving PIT to sign in DET, then eventually Chicago and winning? Or was Jack Eichel a wuss for demanding a trade? Or how about Matthew Tkachuk? You gotta keep it consistent.

Fair point but marner is born and raised here it’s kinda different but he was given the opportunity to control his destiny for us that’s not good but he got it though

 

[francis246]

Fair point but marner is born and raised here it’s kinda different but he was given the opportunity to control his destiny for us that’s not good but he got it though

Marner hasn’t asked for a trade, all he’s doing is just exploring his options as a UFA, which is a CBA right. The leafs have benefitted from that when Tavares, Tanev, OEL and Bunting came here and even Marleau. So yeah it sucks he’s electing to potentially do the same but we have been the beneficiaries of the same exact process.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Oh, is Rantanen with the Leafs now? I missed that.

No, Treliving tipped his hand that they would consider moving on from an unsigned Marner for a signed Rantenan but with the full NMC he is giving that away with the possibility of souring things and ending up with nothing.

This isn’t super complicated. It was not a smart move.

So according to your version of events (I've heard several others) he let Marner know that he was willing to trade him for a better player making $12M. I.e., showed that he thinks Marner is worth less than $12M.

I would say that was a very smart move.

 

[Divine]

An offseason stretches from when a team's season ends to when the next one begins. That's why it's called an offseason. You can't equate signings in two different offseasons using different information.

Why do the Leafs own Marner’s rights until July 1st if it’s the offseason and his contract is effectively over?

 

[thewave]

Oh, is Rantanen with the Leafs now? I missed that.

No, Treliving tipped his hand that they would consider moving on from an unsigned Marner for a signed Rantenan but with the full NMC he is giving that away with the possibility of souring things and ending up with nothing.

This isn’t super complicated. It was not a smart move.

It is if you consider Marner a net negative in the playoffs like I do. His game is just way to weak and this organization can't make up it's mind on how they want to construct a team.

To put it mildly. MLSE are a bunch of finger painters. Mental midgets etc.

There is only 1 way to not hone any success with these picks. AM MM WN +++ Dermot over Aho, heck Werenski and Barzal was the proposed trade down for Mitch. Anyways, it's Incompetence.

Ps.

You know why MMs production goes down in the playoffs right? ITS BECAUSE MITCH MARNER CAN NOT UP HIS GAME RELATIVE TO COMPETITION. THEY GET BETTER AND HE STAYS THE SAME.

 

[Legion34]

I find it hard to believe Drai's agent (or any agent) didn't have solid intel last summer and fall about what the 25-26 cap would be. It's part of their job to know.

It was well known and agreed that it would be 92.5 at minimum

That was public. Whether they had more accurate info is likely. But I can’t prove it

 

[thewave]

It was well known and agreed that it would be 92.5 at minimum

That was public. Whether they had more accurate info is likely. But I can’t prove it

I think the reported range was 92.5 to 94.5 or 95. They probably knew it was going to be 94 or so which translates to what moving up to 96m? Couple hundred K? Not significant. He locked his money in.

 

[Gary Nylund]

OR, another quick reminder: More evidence of why we tend not to sign Toronto-born players as often as, say, Montreal signs Quebec-born ones... Because the fans and the media turn on Toronto-born players MUCH faster than anyone else. Seriously, you're going to drive Marner and Tavares out of town and then try to convince Sam Bennett it would be great for his career to sign here? Or McDavid in a year? Why, so the fans and the media can rip them apart too?

I suspect if the Leafs let Marner go after the circus that has been the last couple of years with this fanbase and this media, it'll be years before they can sign UFA's without massive overpayments. It certainly wouldn't be the first time UFA's actively avoided this team due to factors other than the team...

Nonsense. Nobody's driving Marner or anyone else out of town. Maybe you missed it but the man just recently said he's treated like a god here. There were a few people saying he would be bood this season, you know that never happened right? You seem to be ignoring it but the upside of staying is massive. He'll likely think about what he wants, then discuss it with his family, maybe a few close friends and then decide and the fact that a small portion of the fanbase is critical of his playoff performance is a non-factor.

The biggest circus here was when Ballard owned the team and guys like Sittler, McDonald, Salming, Clark, Palmateer, Gilmour that played in his time are legends now. Sittler, McDonald, Salming, Clark, Palmateer, Gilmour, all those guys are immortal in this town and none of them ever even made it to the finals here.

The vast majority of the fan base doesn't think analytically, even among the people that post here there are a ton of people who worship the ground Marner walks on. Win two playoff rounds, that's all it will take and the current group will have 99.9% of the fanbase on their side and the circus will turn into one big worship fest. If Marner leaves, it'll be because he thinks that's not possible to do, and only a wuss would give up like that. Someone with any gumption at all would say of course we're going to break through, just watch me.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Was Tavares a wuss for leaving the island and signing with us? What about Chara leaving Ottawa and signing with Boston? Or hossa leaving PIT to sign in DET, then eventually Chicago and winning? Or was Jack Eichel a wuss for demanding a trade? Or how about Matthew Tkachuk? You gotta keep it consistent.

None of them were born and raised, drafted by and and then left their home town, which happens to be the hockey capital of the world where the fans are starved for playoff success and are just dying to worship players that bring it to them.

There was a panel question on the broadcast recently, the question was will Marner be a Maple Leaf next season. Every single person said yes, why do you think that is?

 

[thewave]

None of them were born and raised, drafted by and and then left their home town, which happens to be the hockey capital of the world where the fans are starved for playoff success and are just dying to worship players that bring it to them.

There was a panel question on the broadcast recently, the question was will Marner be a Maple Leaf next season. Every single person said yes, why do you think that is?

Because we have a loser franchise that cant get enough of losing. We are addicted to loser mentality so long as we have a hometown boy who is trying aka has a good uplifting narrative about them.

 

[francis246]

None of them were born and raised, drafted by and and then left their home town, which happens to be the hockey capital of the world where the fans are starved for playoff success and are just dying to worship players that bring it to them.

There was a panel question on the broadcast recently, the question was will Marner be a Maple Leaf next season. Every single person said yes, why do you think that is?

Again I think the hometown thing is a bigger deal to fans than it is to players. I’m sure they love being able to don the jersey but it’s not the end of the world if they leave. It’s a cool experience but it’s not the be all end all for these guys. Just getting to play the game you love is good enough for them, playing for the leafs is a cherry on top, but it’s not like Marner is going to go into a Great Depression if he doesn’t win here or ends up leaving.

It’s a novelty thing for fans more than the players TBH. If it was such a big thing why aren’t more GTA born players doing everything they can to come here? Most of them avoid it like the plague, or they come here on the back 9 of their careers, when they are looking to be closer to family, but rarely in their primes.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Again I think the hometown thing is a bigger deal to fans than it is to players. I’m sure they love being able to don the jersey but it’s not the end of the world if they leave. It’s a cool experience but it’s not the be all end all for these guys. Just getting to play the game you love is good enough for them, playing for the leafs is a cherry on top, but it’s not like Marner is going to go into a Great Depression if he doesn’t win here or ends up leaving.

It's the capital of the hockey world, that's why it's such a big deal. The hometown thing might not be a big thing in Utah or Columbus, but Toronto's different. I never said it was the end of the world if they leave, just that there's a MASSIVE upside to staying. Endorsements for life is huge. If he stays in Toronto, how much endorsement money do you think Marner stands to pocket over the next 50 years? Think about it.

It’s a novelty thing for fans more than the players TBH. If it was such a big thing why aren’t more GTA born players doing everything they can to come here? Most of them avoid it like the plague, or they come here on the back 9 of their careers, when they are looking to be closer to family, but rarely in their primes.

Most players play where they get drafted. And the biggest player to hit the UFA market in NHL history did come here, despite the fact that he became instantly hated in the town where he had played his entire career up to that point.

 

[Jmo89]

It is if you consider Marner a net negative in the playoffs like I do. His game is just way to weak and this organization can't make up it's mind on how they want to construct a team.

To put it mildly. MLSE are a bunch of finger painters. Mental midgets etc.

There is only 1 way to not hone any success with these picks. AM MM WN +++ Dermot over Aho, heck Werenski and Barzal was the proposed trade down for Mitch. Anyways, it's Incompetence.

Ps.

You know why MMs production goes down in the playoffs right? ITS BECAUSE MITCH MARNER CAN NOT UP HIS GAME RELATIVE TO COMPETITION. THEY GET BETTER AND HE STAYS THE SAME.

I still remember that game against Boston where Toronto won (I think it was) game 1. I don't remember if it was the first or second series but Marner made some big blocks at the end and looked engaged all game. The media was fawning over him and the fans were excited. Then it just stopped.

Marner can be effective in the playoffs but it's clear he doesn't want to put forth that kind of effort night in and night out. He's a great passenger but unfortunately for him Matthews has many of the same flaws, so they often lack a driver - at least consistently.

Marner playing with MacKinnon would become a playoff legend. Ditto on Matthews with a prime Kane. For whatever reason they just don't have it on their own or with each other.

 

[thewave]

I still remember that game against Boston where Toronto won (I think it was) game 1. I don't remember if it was the first or second series but Marner made some big blocks at the end and looked engaged all game. The media was fawning over him and the fans were excited. Then it just stopped.

Marner can be effective in the playoffs but it's clear he doesn't want to put forth that kind of effort night in and night out. He's a great passenger but unfortunately for him Matthews has many of the same flaws, so they often lack a driver - at least consistently.

Marner playing with MacKinnon would become a playoff legend. Ditto on Matthews with a prime Kane. For whatever reason they just don't have it on their own or with each other.

I think I remember that. One of the shots hobbled him and then it stopped. I think he did a risk reward on it and deemed it not worth the risk anymore.

He didn't want to be the double flamingo guy like Nylander who didn't hear the end of that for some years.

They certainly don't drive each other in the playoffs. I think Willy Matthews in the playoffs could be the solution but it never happens

 

[francis246]

I still remember that game against Boston where Toronto won (I think it was) game 1. I don't remember if it was the first or second series but Marner made some big blocks at the end and looked engaged all game. The media was fawning over him and the fans were excited. Then it just stopped.

Marner can be effective in the playoffs but it's clear he doesn't want to put forth that kind of effort night in and night out. He's a great passenger but unfortunately for him Matthews has many of the same flaws, so they often lack a driver - at least consistently.

Marner playing with MacKinnon would become a playoff legend. Ditto on Matthews with a prime Kane. For whatever reason they just don't have it on their own or with each other.

Exactly why I think If Edmonton can clear space Marner might end up there.

@Gary Nylund just easier for me to tag you in this reply. But I understand what you’re saying but if Marner stays in Canada I don’t think he’ll lose endorsements. If he gets to July 1, I do t think the leafs wait around for him and miss other UFA’s. Maybe he doesn’t believe he can win here. I think Edmonton might be the play on a short term deal imo. I’m not really drinking the highest bidder kool-aid

 

[thewave]

Exactly why I think If Edmonton can clear space Marner might end up there.

@Gary Nylander just easier for me to tag you in this reply. But I understand what you’re saying but if Marner stays in Canada I don’t think he’ll lose endorsements. If he gets to July 1, I do t think the leafs wait around for him and miss other UFA’s. Maybe he doesn’t believe he can win here. I think Edmonton might be the play on a short term deal imo. I’m not really drinking the highest bidder kill aid

Marner will not go to Edmonton. I will eat my boot if he does. Low tax big money or stay right here.