Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Yet Again

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Completely understand the business point of it, but it just feels like this has been turned into a huge media shit storm at the worst possible time. It’s on our management to be a bit more responsible, make those moves behind the scenes but allowing it to come out and become a distraction is unacceptable to me.

It's absolutely disruptive, no argument thereu Bt Marner can end it by signing the extension,.and all the external noise would disappear instantaneously.

Nylander and Matthews managed to get their deals wrapped up quietly. There was zero reason why Mitch couldn't have done the same
 
It's absolutely disruptive, no argument thereu Bt Marner can end it by signing the extension,.and all the external noise would disappear instantaneously.

Nylander and Matthews managed to get their deals wrapped up quietly. There was zero reason why Mitch couldn't have done the same

Maybe this is the pressure needed to do that. It does seem like a bit of lose lose situation though now. If he signs before playoffs people will be pissed. If he signs after people will be pissed. If he wants to be here he’s just gotta do it and not care about the outside noise.
 
It's absolutely disruptive, no argument thereu Bt Marner can end it by signing the extension,.and all the external noise would disappear instantaneously.

Nylander and Matthews managed to get their deals wrapped up quietly. There was zero reason why Mitch couldn't have done the same

There was a reason. greed. He risked his reputation playing these games and no waiving. He will always be hated here A if he walks. B they lose out again in the PO. C if his pay is deemed too much and more lack of success to follow.

Darkman or whatever his name is was absolutely right about Ferris destroying his reputation
 
Look I wish we had more playoff success, this league is tough to win in. Boston had the greatest record of all time and got cooked round 1.

Marner is unfortunately/fortunately for him and us gonna be made an example if we lose again this year, because the contract negotiations aren't going well nor has he signed yet.

If he's willing to take 8x12/12.5/13m I would assume this is probably done by now on both parties.

But you can't fault people for being upset, that our GM went and made two big deals and giving up whatever we assets we have, because he believes in them. Then right when the deadline is done, all you hear from every media source is. "WELL! I fully believe he's going to test free agency!"

Especially with how the last contract talks went.
 
Completely understand the business point of it, but it just feels like this has been turned into a huge media shit storm at the worst possible time. It’s on our management to be a bit more responsible, make those moves behind the scenes but allowing it to come out and become a distraction is unacceptable to me.
As a fan, it also really sucks seeing the same thing play out twice. Maybe management seems the same way? Although I highly doubt it as it's a different GM and Shanahan has bent over like 10 times for the core, idk why he'd start getting pissy now.

I became a fan the playoffs leading up to the marner negotiations so I really wasn't that deep into it, but just looking at others and reading up online it was pretty ugly. They ran long into the summer. Offersheets were speculated, marner wrote a letter? to the fans or something afterwards which was not the best way to start off on his contract from the reactions. Matthews was being brought up as a comparable alot. In general marner, and his agent seemed difficult to work with. Doesn't help that his agent has that sort of reputation.

fast forward 6 years and we sit at the same place. NMC waive's have been brought up, contract talks are not happening apparently.

This didn't come out for Matthews's and Nylander's UFA contract negotitations. Matthews's was just us saying yes to whatever he said. Nylander's was kept behind the scenes pretty well with only numbers coming out and then the contract the December/January of the year.

looking at this from marner + agent's side, this distraction could've probably been avoided if marner had settled for 11.5-12. If he actually wants to be here, and by the man himself he does, it would've just been easier for him and win the fans back if he had taken a bit less. I'm not saying he should do that, but he's made similar choices to his RFA contract negotiations and it's turned out kinda similar.
 
I work in management and I have to deal with the public and its freaking brutal. I feel for Marner on the emotional level I.e. fans.

However, the whole "I wanna stay" thing I have zero sympathy towards. Brother, sign a contract then. Must it be to your exact liking if you want it so badly? I'm fed up and I'd rather just part ways when we're done in a round or two. This saga is exhausting for me, can't imagine how he feels. Oh no the multi-millionaire wants an extra 250K per year or else he'll leave his townhouse. Give me a break. Just sign a reasonable rate or accept the terms that you'll need to go elsewhere if money is the be all end all

I'm sure 8 x $13.93 million would get Marner done...gotta pay tribute to Gilmour...:sarcasm:
 
The issues is that “primary assists” are not worth more than goals.
Nobody argued that. The issue is that you're trying to argue the opposite, and undervalue playmaking, based on absolutely nothing. Only secondary assists correlated with contract history worse than goals.
It’s clear. The NHl values goals at 1.75 assists. The NHL does NOT differentiate between primary and secondary assists in contracts.
Well for one thing, we're not talking about how goals compare to assists. We're talking about how goals compare to primary assists. But also no, none of what you posted means any of that. The possible CBA benchmarks for one type of ELC performance bonus have nothing to do with anything, and certainly dont represent things of equal value or an exhaustive list of negotiation considerations. By that logic, you would, for example, be arguing that teams would pay an equal amount to somebody with 0 points as they would to somebody with 60 points, as long as they had a good +/- or were in the top half of forward ice time.
 
As a fan, it also really sucks seeing the same thing play out twice. Maybe management seems the same way? Although I highly doubt it as it's a different GM and Shanahan has bent over like 10 times for the core, idk why he'd start getting pissy now.

I became a fan the playoffs leading up to the marner negotiations so I really wasn't that deep into it, but just looking at others and reading up online it was pretty ugly. They ran long into the summer. Offersheets were speculated, marner wrote a letter? to the fans or something afterwards which was not the best way to start off on his contract from the reactions. Matthews was being brought up as a comparable alot. In general marner, and his agent seemed difficult to work with. Doesn't help that his agent has that sort of reputation.

fast forward 6 years and we sit at the same place. NMC waive's have been brought up, contract talks are not happening apparently.

This didn't come out for Matthews's and Nylander's UFA contract negotitations. Matthews's was just us saying yes to whatever he said. Nylander's was kept behind the scenes pretty well with only numbers coming out and then the contract the December/January of the year.

looking at this from marner + agent's side, this distraction could've probably been avoided if marner had settled for 11.5-12. If he actually wants to be here, and by the man himself he does, it would've just been easier for him and win the fans back if he had taken a bit less. I'm not saying he should do that, but he's made similar choices to his RFA contract negotiations and it's turned out kinda similar.

I envy you! you only became a fan in 2019… you have not experienced TML pain.

But yes it sucks to see it happen again. And everyone has played a role. Marner isn’t innocent in all of this. I think in 2019 you could use the he was really young and naive excuse. This time around he’s an adult, married, he’s responsible for his part in the situation.
 
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Looks to me like:
Marner wants a huge payday and is willing to go to free agency to get as much as he can, his right and that’s ok.
Management was talking to to Carolina and maybe offered the Kypreos package and Carolina asked about Marner. Tre says I’ll do due diligence and ask Marner as they’ve indicated they’re going to July 1 and if that’s a destination he’s interested in we can negotiate a deal we can replace him him with Rantenan and everyone is kinda happy. That’s also ok.
Marner says not interested , again his right and he’s going to FA or whatever the time to settle this was before the no trade kicked in.
So much noise.
 
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Bro, are you on his f***ing PR team?

It’s been reported we’ve offered him plenty of fine contracts and he’s said no. They had an elite player that was willing to sign here. So they did what was smart and went and asked.


Everyone complains about how we aren’t as ruthless as other teams and we create a country club. We try changing it, people complain. Good f***ing lord.

How do we know it was management that leaked this? At 301pm it was everywhere Marner was willing to test FA. That doesn’t impact the locker room?

Nah, just the leafs trying to be good now and long term impacts it.

Give me a break

The reality is... you don't know, i don't know and nobody really know what are the negociation between leafs and Marner.

1 month ago everyone here still thinking Rantanen waiting for a contract similar to Draisaitl around 14M. he had been traded and boom and said he was ready to sign at discount and 1 month later he signed 2 M under what's people here expected.
 
Looks to me like:
Marner wants a huge payday and is willing to go to free agency to get as much as he can, his right and that’s ok.
Management was talking to to Carolina and maybe offered the Kypreos package and Carolina asked about Marner. Tre says I’ll do due diligence and ask Marner as they’ve indicated they’re going to July 1 and if that’s a destination he’s interested in we can negotiate a deal we can replace him him with Rantenan and everyone is kinda happy. That’s also ok.
Marner says not interested , again his right and he’s going to FA or whatever the time to settle this was before the no trade kicked in.
So much noise.
I think he'll either sign with the Leafs and continue to get millions in supplemental income via endorsements as a local kid, or sign with a low tax US state. But he can't be expecting the Leafs to pay his ridiculous asking price because he's not worth it.
 
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Nobody argued that. The issue is that you're trying to argue the opposite, and undervalue playmaking, based on absolutely nothing. Only secondary assists correlated with contract history worse than goals.

Well for one thing, we're not talking about how goals compare to assists. We're talking about how goals compare to primary assists. But also no, none of what you posted means any of that. The possible CBA benchmarks for one type of ELC performance bonus have nothing to do with anything, and certainly dont represent things of equal value or an exhaustive list of negotiation considerations. By that logic, you would, for example, be arguing that teams would pay an equal amount to somebody with 0 points as they would to somebody with 60 points, as long as they had a good +/- or were in the top half of forward ice time.

1.)You did. Look what you wrote. You wrote that the history of contracts is more in line with primary POINT production then goal production. That’s what you wrote. Of course that would be the case. Goals are in your completely made up stat. In primary points. So comparing goals AND assists would be more predictive than just goals. Ie a 40 goal 60 pt player is worth less than an 30 goal 120 pt player. You wrote primary POINTS, not assists.

A 40 goals 100 pt player is worth more than a 30 goal 100 pt player.

Because as the NHL established. A goal is worth 1.75 assists in contract values.


2.) the NHL players and owners all sat down and quantified values of certain stats. They chose to base performance values on goals, assists, points.

They could have used “primary assists” and chose not to. They could have counted 20 primary assists as a bonus. They didn’t. They could have made primary points a category.

You have decided, with zero evidence that the NHL collectively bargained to make goals worth more money than assists in ELC contracts but not RFA and UFA, didn not mention primary points. Or primary assists.

You expect anyone to believe that the NHL bargained to make contracts based on completely different things and value them completely differently in other contracts, but choose to pay people differently here why? For fun?

It’s just silly. You know you are wrong. You provide no evidence. I provided the literal CBA formula
 
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The reality is... you don't know, i don't know and nobody really know what are the negociation between leafs and Marner.

1 month ago everyone here still thinking Rantanen waiting for a contract similar to Draisaitl around 14M. he had been traded and boom and said he was ready to sign at discount and 1 month later he signed 2 M under what's people here expected.

No state tax market it’s about the same
 
I miss the old days of this board. Back in 07/08/09 this board was great. Great discussions, solid people. I remember people used to do ticket give aways on here, meet ups and everything, was legit a solid community. Post Bruins loss in 2013, this place became a hell hole man. Just unhappy people coming here to ensure others are unhappy.
2007 Leaf Board Crew checking in

That shit was the Wild Wild West. When I first came back to this board, my first instinct was "where the crap are most of the people I recognize" and my second instinct was "it was more fun back in the day even though the team was worse."

Other than mooseOAK pretty much everyone agreed the team was ass back then. It sort of brought us together?
 
I think he'll either sign with the Leafs and continue to get millions in supplemental income via endorsements as a local kid, or sign with a low tax US state. But he can't be expecting the Leafs to pay his ridiculous asking price because he's not worth it.
I think he will resign as well, unless backchannel whispers have told them to keep their powder dry. Unlikely yes maybe management is lowballing Marner deliberately to villainize him and open the door for you know who to make an entrance. LOL gonna be a fascinating summer after the Cup Parade :sarcasm:
 
At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if he did walk. Can't think of another superstar that's put up with so much undeserved nonsense from their team and fanbase.

It's really disappointing how much this management team has screwed this up, and how toxic this fanbase is, and now it seems like our future largely depends on whether Marner loves the Leafs enough to continue enduring the abuse and disrespect. Hopefully he does...

He described being treated as a god by this city, in his own words just a few months ago. If he was so upset by his treatment he was also just given a 'get out of jail' free card for the rest of the season that he turned down.

Describing this situation as 'abuse' is absurd Dekes.
 
No state tax market it’s about the same

Colorado has very low state income tax (4.4%) and the rumours was he wants to make more than MacKinnon. Rantanen takes home less money than MacKinnon with his new contract.

It's clear Rantanen's 'greed' was overblown. Let's hope the same for Marner.
 
They should have made re-signing him last offseason a priority. If they're not offering above Nylander's cap hit percentage, they're insulting him. We've played stupid games because of this fanbase's obsession with change for change's sake, and we're finding out what the stupid prizes are.

This whole trade fiasco was also so pointless. They knew that he was going to refuse, and they didn't even really want to do it anyway, but now instead of making him feel valued, we've put this distraction in his head as we get ready for the playoffs, and fed the toxic media machine. It's the last thing Marner, this team, or re-signing efforts needed.

Letting a Marner calibre player walk is a fireable offense on its own.

The criticism has been misguided, massively exaggerated, and at many times, personal. It's sickening what people have said in here and out in the world about and to another human being. It's even more sickening when these are supposed to be fans, and they berate one of the best players that has ever worn the Leaf jersey, and direct 60 years of frustration towards him. The only position his camp has taken is wanting to be paid his proper value like everybody else. He has not been even close to the reason for the lack of playoff success.

Losing a prime aged franchise player for nothing is a massive hit to a team, especially when they don't have the pieces or management to help mitigate the impact.

Not sure what your misunderstanding of what happened in the previous negotiation has to do with anything.
He got paid like he was a consistent 100 point scorer off his ELC and still hasn't hit 100 points yet. He got paid more than his value so it's his turn to take something that he considers below his value now. "But he has been projected to get 100 points if he played a full 82 game season". I assume is what someone would say defending this. Matthews has hit 100 points playing 73 games the same year Marner hit 97 in 72 games. All you do is say losing an elite player at his age is gonna hurt us when that elite player hasn't done anything to help this team do anything. Then you always take shots at this management that's been here just under 2 years when all you do/did was praise the other management group that did nothing his entire time here. "He built a team that got 110+ points in the regular season" Like anyone gives a damn after his playoff record.
 
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It's absolutely disruptive, no argument thereu Bt Marner can end it by signing the extension,.and all the external noise would disappear instantaneously.

Nylander and Matthews managed to get their deals wrapped up quietly. There was zero reason why Mitch couldn't have done the same

Just reacting to what's been reported but the critical issue here is Mitch Marner's camp is negotiating with emotional component that goes beyond good sensible, clear headed business.

That is he seems to be threatening free agency while wanting to stay in Toronto, while making reported salary demands that can't be met by a third party in the open market (8th year). And for wanting to stay in Toronto, he seems to also want to stick it to Toronto, or the fanbase, and make Toronto negotiate against the market, while wanting to be emancipated from the psycho drama that he is front and center creating for himself.

It's like he's butt hurt and threatening to take his ball away, while it sounds like the organization has been trying to nail down an extension.

At some point, there's a dollar amount that needs to make sense, and if you want to be in Toronto, act like it. Otherwise, just go away. The organization was here for 100 years before you and will probably be here July 2, 2025.
 
People have to get this through their heads, Marner isn't doing the Leafs any favours. For him, it's been a business. For the Leafs, for some weird reasons, it's been like a relationship with a woman. Weird dynamic.

Matthews didn't go to UFA and he came off of a 69 goal season. His second 60 goal season. He could have squeezed more but he accepted less for less term.

Marner didn't give a nickel of discount his first contract and tried to get even more until his demands were leaked.

If he walks, it is the best outcome IMO. If he does sign, sign for less and agree to a limited No-trade. If I am the Leafs I just walk away and do a year or two without more star powe on that line. Domi can step in if they dont find a replacement.

If he wins a Cup give him $15M a year. Otherwise, Leafs need to be smart
 
People have to get this through their heads, Marner isn't doing the Leafs any favours. For him, it's been a business. For the Leafs, for some weird reasons, it's been like a relationship with a woman. Weird dynamic.

Matthews didn't go to UFA and he came off of a 69 goal season. His second 60 goal season. He could have squeezed more but he accepted less for less term.

Marner didn't give a nickel of discount his first contract and tried to get even more until his demands were leaked.

If he walks, it is the best outcome IMO. If he does sign, sign for less and agree to a limited No-trade. If I am the Leafs I just walk away and do a year or two without more star powe on that line. Domi can step in if they dont find a replacement.

If he wins a Cup give him $15M a year. Otherwise, Leafs need to be smart

I think for a lot of people it's hard to accept the reality that the home grown local boy is the greediest of the bunch. So they make excuses for him to deny that reality.
 
There was a reason. greed. He risked his reputation playing these games and no waiving. He will always be hated here A if he walks. B they lose out again in the PO. C if his pay is deemed too much and more lack of success to follow.

Darkman or whatever his name is was absolutely right about Ferris destroying his reputation

The problem with loser Darren Ferris' emotional pressure tactics is Marner doesn't have a great relationship in the market (because of the last round of negotiations and lack of playoff success). You can't threaten to walk and create psycho drama when it's clear your client wants to stay and the fanbase is very polarized about your client without looking like an irrational party. You're not behaving like a rational business partner on good faith.
 
So Kyper was right about Leafs having the better package bc it was MM.

Canes didn't choose Stars over Leafs bc they can meet in playoffs, it is bc MM said no.

Imagine MM said yes
 

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