Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Yet Again

[Zybalto]

“Marner has been one of the best 5v5 players overall in the playoffs.”

What’s living in a fantasy world like?

It's pretty easy really.

The key to being a good 5v5 player is to score more goals than the other side right. I we cant agree on that, I dont think we can get any further.

Marner is has been one of the best players in the league at doing this in the playoffs. I've already listed the stats. The Leafs forwards (and Marner's) biggest issue in the playoffs has been the powerplay. Not only does Marner have incredible 5v5 actual numbers (not fancy stats) but the only other top forward in the league that has numbers so far above the average of the rest of his team is McDavid. If you dont think Marner has been at least a good 5v5 player (some people have a really hard time seeing defense to certain levels), I dont question your hockey knowledge, I question your sanity. Special teams and wanting more big clutch moments is one thing. I can give him hell for that too. Gotta look at the body of work 5v5 and at least give him props, especially when he one of the best in the league in that area.

For the record,
Marner 5v5 in the playoffs the last 3 years:

Goals for/60: 3.08
Goals against/60: 1.72
GF%: 64.20%
REL: +22.32

Man, look at me the damn fool throwing out cherry picked stats like goals for and against and just how much better Marner has been carrying the worst depth on any contender. Get this guy off the team ASAP!

 

[The Shadow]

Neither are going to sign Marner without moving heaven and earth in terms of cap.

I'd be surprised if he wants to leave this country and both sets of parents with a newborn approaching, yes you can fly them in but it's not the same as a 20-30 minute drive away.

I think the Leafs likely offered some reasonable deals, if 12-12.5M or even 13M but with some deferrals cannot get it done, whatever.

You set the table a bit for McDavid the following off-season.

What does Florida have to move? They get nearly $8 million in new cap space, Bennet and Ekblad looking like they will test free agency

That’s more than enough

 

[Ports]

He could have gone to Carolina if he agreed to waive. I give him rope if he refused to waive because Carolina is not a team or place he is willing to sign with. Rantanen could not get out of there fast enough.

He wasn’t signing in Carolina so if that was a requirement of the deal then it makes sense that he wouldn’t waive. If he could’ve gone there without re-signing that’s a different story. It’s his right to not waive his NMC but it’s basically a FU to the team and fanbase to know you’re not going to remain a Leaf and not being open to a trade like Tkachuk was.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Everyone cheering that they tried to trade Marner has selective hearing, they said their number one choice was signing Marner long-term...

You all complain about players not wanting to be here, and now that one does, you complain that he won't leave.

You should take some care when using the word "everyone", in this case you're obviously wrong.

I think I was the first one to suggest seeing what we could get for him in a trade after losing to MTL.

The only time I ever wanted so sing wonder boy long term was 6 years ago, and I would never have done it for the cap hit that idiot Dubas gave him.

 

[Legion34]

Imagine you are the Marner family. You are going to sign a potential 7 year deal worth $100 million. About to have a baby and start a family

You can do it in Tampa or Florida with lower taxes, better weather and far less stress from the media/fans.

Your parents and extended family will be down there often during the season to enjoy the weather and they start a life there and put down roots.

The worst will be when Nylander and Matthews see him win before they do. Matthews leaves in 4 more years and the rebuild starts.

Thanks to Brad and the raging fan base all prospects and draft picks are depleted or traded for one more shot. Look at our current prospect pool. It’s a joke.

You could have done all that last year with an 8 year deal.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Don’t rule out Tampa. Cooper talks about him like he’s his prodigal sun. He can save face by signing for less money with no state tax just like Rantanen did.

It would be interesting to know what Cooper really thinks about Marner. You're right in that he could sign for less there and save face but does Cooper really want him? It's one thing to sing his praises publicly but Cooper has to be aware of the way Marner turns into a middle 6 forward after 86 games.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Thanks to Brad and the raging fan base all prospects and draft picks are depleted or traded for one more shot. Look at our current prospect pool. It’s a joke.

Ya sure, of course the fan base is responsible for what the GM does.

I can't stop laughing.

 

[notbias]

You should take some care when using the word "everyone", in this case you're obviously wrong.

I think I was the first one to suggest seeing what we could get for him in a trade after losing to MTL.

The only time I ever wanted so sing wonder boy long term was 6 years ago, and I would never have done it for the cap hit that idiot Dubas gave him.

Neat.

You need a better grasp of conversational English if you think "everyone" always means every single person and is not used exaggeratedly at times.

 

[thewave]

Ya sure, of course the fan base is responsible for what the GM does.

I can't stop laughing.

The only truth in it is that they keep buying tickets and Merch.

 

[Smif]

Suck in the playoffs while taking the team to the cleaners is the big thing, do you even watch this team or just come on here to cry about posters venting?

We're talking about what Marner did 8 months ago here?

 

[GoonieFace]

It's pretty easy really.

The key to being a good 5v5 player is to score more goals than the other side right. I we cant agree on that, I dont think we can get any further.

Marner is has been one of the best players in the league at doing this in the playoffs. I've already listed the stats. The Leafs forwards (and Marner's) biggest issue in the playoffs has been the powerplay. Not only does Marner have incredible 5v5 actual numbers (not fancy stats) but the only other top forward in the league that has numbers so far above the average of the rest of his team is McDavid. If you dont think Marner has been at least a good 5v5 player (some people have a really hard time seeing defense to certain levels), I dont question your hockey knowledge, I question your sanity. Special teams and wanting more big clutch moments is one thing. I can give him hell for that too. Gotta look at the body of work 5v5 and at least give him props, especially when he one of the best in the league in that area.

For the record,
Marner 5v5 in the playoffs the last 3 years:

Goals for/60: 3.08
Goals against/60: 1.72
GF%: 64.20%
REL: +22.32

Man, look at me the damn fool throwing out cherry picked stats like goals for and against and just how much better Marner has been carrying the worst depth on any contender. Get this guy off the team ASAP!

Even strength pts/60 in playoffs

Rantanen - 2.726
Draisaitl - 2.952
Nylander - 2.435
Matthews - 2.051
Marner - 1.945

This obviously includes all points, if we did goals….

Who’s the best?

 

[57 Years No Cup]

It's obvious that his camp wants to maximize his AAV by going to free agency. Of course he will say he wants to stay in Toronto because I think he truly does.

If Leafs did offer him $12.5 million per and they turned it down, that will only go up come free agency.

Ultimately it comes down to what Mitch really wants to do when other teams start offering him $13-14 million per.

It allows depends on what happens in the playoffs as well.

Cool fantasy.

 

[Ports]

This whole Rantanen/Marner thing is fascinating really.

First Colorado trades Rantanen instead of resigning him showing they would rather break ties than continue on was a pretty big shock. Teams dont generally do that and they have been largely proven right in a short period of time which is crazy. Why would they do that? Im guessing Rantanen was asking for a far bigger number than 12 and the whispers of Rantanens awful numbers away from Mac forced the Avs hand and targeting a player like Necas now looks like the genius trade of the year.

Why did Carolina trade for Rantanen? Because they wanted to sign him and use him for their playoff run of course. The fact he managed to sour that relationship so quickly with a combination of poor play and who knows what behind the scenes and they wanted to cut bait after 13 games makes it one of the craziest trades I've ever scene. The whole thing looks toxic and Rantanens stock fell huge after this. The fact he still got 12 on a good team when he looks like such a huge risk is not a bad end game through all this for him.

The fact Carolina wanted Marner over him shouldnt be a shock. The 4 nations was brilliant and Marner was a huge factor while Rantanen was just another good player. Marner and Stolarz have been the Leaf MVPs this season and watching the game last night, the gap between elite players and non-elite players was evident and Marner was the best Leaf on the ice. A huge factor on both sides of the puck and in all situations. Marner on Carolina would be a massive get for them and I'm a little shocked our managment would have even asked him. No Marner on the Leafs this year would have us struggling to even make the playoffs IMO.

He might be on the way out, he might not but the way he gets treated around here, I wouldnt really blame him. This town is just dying to run him out of town and watch him win a cup somewhere else. Its a Leafs tradition no? Murphy, Kessel, Kadri....Marner? I always find it hilarious that a sold majority wanted those guys gone and its impossible to find anyone who will own up to it years later.

I disagree. If Marner led the Leafs to a cup there’d be a statue outside SBC. Like to see him do it although I think he’d leave anyway. The truth is he knows that they’re not winning anything and he’s playing to be the highest paid winger in the league somewhere else.

 

[nuck]

Rantanen's 5v5 numbers are actually pretty interesting the last 3 years.

5v5 on ice numbers:
Regular season since start of 2022 season (including post trade):

Rantanen with Mac:
Goals for: 159
Goals Against: 108

Rantanen without Mac:
Goals for: 50
Goals Against: 71

Mac without Rantanen:
Goals for: 95
Goals Against: 54


Playoffs last 3 years:

Rantanen with Mac:
Goals for: 22
Goals Against: 15

Rantanen without Mac:
Goals for: 10
Goals Against: 13

Mac without Rantanen:
Goals for: 23
Goals Against: 13

Gonna be fun to see how the rest of this unfolds.

Keep in mind when Ranta isn't with Mack he was with Colton, or Mittelstadt or Rodrigues who aren't legit top 6 players. Pasta has at least been playing with guys who can get to 60pts and who are better at feeding him. Not that I think he is equal to Pastrnak (any more).

It will be interesting for sure because Dallas has better offensive centers than Carolina to try for a fit with but not close to top 10 never mind top 3 in the league. What if he's the new Jari Kurri?

 

[IPS]

Ya sure, of course the fan base is responsible for what the GM does.

I can't stop laughing.

We're responsible for driving Marner out of town and now we're responsible for directing the GM?

This place is becoming unhinged.

 

[Ports]

It would be interesting to know what Cooper really thinks about Marner. You're right in that he could sign for less there and save face but does Cooper really want him? It's one thing to sing his praises publicly but Cooper has to be aware of the way Marner turns into a middle 6 forward after 86 games.

On a team where Marner would play behind Kucherov and Point and with a much smaller less critical fan base he would probably thrive. Think Kessel in Pittsburgh. Marner just isn’t able to handle criticism or take responsibility for not playing up to expectations and there’s nowhere louder than Toronto.

 

[Zybalto]

It would be interesting to know what Cooper really thinks about Marner. You're right in that he could sign for less there and save face but does Cooper really want him? It's one thing to sing his praises publicly but Cooper has to be aware of the way Marner turns into a middle 6 forward after 86 games.

Cooper has let his feelings about Marner be known quite candidly. Does Cooper want the guy who scored/setup the 3 biggest goals for his team at the 4 nations? The guy he put with McDavid in the 3rd/OT with everything on the line and he everyone else to choose from?

"but what does he really think".....jeezus. gotta use it twice now.

You guys are like cartoon characters at this point. A little bit a nuance goes a long way. Yes Marner has been a great 5v5 player and yes hes been bad on the PP. Yes, Cooper loves Marner and Marner was clutch as hell for Canada and yes, Marner has not been clutch in games 5-7 for the Leafs.

All these things can be true.

 

[Zybalto]

Keep in mind when Ranta isn't with Mack he was with Colton, or Mittelstadt or Rodrigues who aren't legit top 6 players. Pasta has at least been playing with guys who can get to 60pts and who are better at feeding him. Not that I think he is equal to Pastrnak (any more).

It will be interesting for sure because Dallas has better offensive centers than Carolina to try for a fit with but not close to top 10 never mind top 3 in the league. What if he's the new Jari Kurri?

Got a nice stretch of games to gel with the team before the playoffs too.

He got a goal and assist last night but was 0-1 in the 5v5 department again which is not what the Stars want to see. Not paying 12 million a year for a PP specialist winger.

 

[Dekes For Days]

At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if he did walk. Can't think of another superstar that's put up with so much undeserved nonsense from their team and fanbase.

It's really disappointing how much this management team has screwed this up, and how toxic this fanbase is, and now it seems like our future largely depends on whether Marner loves the Leafs enough to continue enduring the abuse and disrespect. Hopefully he does...

 

[Legion34]

It would be interesting to know what Cooper really thinks about Marner. You're right in that he could sign for less there and save face but does Cooper really want him? It's one thing to sing his praises publicly but Cooper has to be aware of the way Marner turns into a middle 6 forward after 86 games.

Also. They have like 9 million to spend. With plenty of players to sign.
Are they really going to bring Mitch in to make more than kuch? Are they gutting half their team?

Tampa/florida make no sense.

Vegas could do it with some minor surgery. They have to sign Hague and goalies but could move out like a karlson and make it work.

la could fit him right in.

 

[thewave]

Even strength pts/60 in playoffs

Rantanen - 2.726
Draisaitl - 2.952
Nylander - 2.435
Matthews - 2.051
Marner - 1.945

This obviously includes all points, if we did goals….

Who’s the best?

It makes you wonder if MLSE uses any of these facts. Does MLSE actually know what they are doing at all?

 

[thewave]

Also. They have like 9 million to spend. With plenty of players to sign.
Are they really going to bring Mitch in to make more than kuch? Are they gutting half their team?

Tampa/florida make no sense.

Vegas could do it with some minor surgery. They have to sign Hague and goalies but could move out like a karlson and make it work.

la could fit him right in.

I could see LA for sure.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Neat.

You need a better grasp of conversational English if you think "everyone" always means every single person and is not used exaggeratedly at times.

So "conversational English" and "English" are two different things for you, LOL OK then bud.

I dunno who you talk to but the people I converse with just say what they mean. If your grasp of the English language is sufficient then you should try it some time.

 

[Peasy]

It makes you wonder if MLSE uses any of these facts. Does MLSE actually know what they are doing at all?

They wont know or care what theyre doing until the bottom lines starts to really suffer.

 

[Gary Nylund]

On a team where Marner would play behind Kucherov and Point and with a much smaller less critical fan base he would probably thrive. Think Kessel in Pittsburgh. Marner just isn’t able to handle criticism or take responsibility for not playing up to expectations and there’s nowhere louder than Toronto.

Anything's possible I guess. But it also could be his style of play is simply not effective once everyone settles into playoff hockey. I mean the pressure doesn't seem to bother him for the first 86 games of the season, and when the team has even a little bit of playoff success they gets supported and cheered on like no other which makes most people feel no pressure at all, only elation.