Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Yet Again

[thewave]

I’d also try out a thought experiment and throw out a Mitch Marner vs Jake Guentzel comparison. Needless to say Guentzel doesn’t have the high end reputation of a Marner or has flirted with 100 points as Marner does. But he has cup winning pedigree and looks really comfortable on the big stage. So when factor these things all in, there’s definitely a $ figure to consider when you pay for the name brand prestige of one player vs big game characteristics of another.

Probably the best thing to do is to take the past 5 years playoff records and regular season records. Tally it all up and weight it maybe 60/40 60 being for playoff production ppg.

So if Marner is .81 in the playoffs and 1.12 you can either evaluate in each scenario or balance it out.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Gonna keep saying it: I think he's a special talent, I like him, I think he's done a lot for the team but I would just let him walk for the cap space unless he can be convinced to accept a trade at the deadline. The current team makeup does not work, period.

 

[thewave]

Gonna keep saying it: I think he's a special talent, I like him, I think he's done a lot for the team but I would just let him walk for the cap space unless he can be convinced to accept a trade at the deadline. The current team makeup does not work, period.

Yes

How about JT and Mo?

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Yes

How about JT and Mo?

Mo took a bit of a team discount so I'd keep him and hope he can turn it around (and who's the replacement?). I'll be very disappointed if the rumours are true about JT's salary ask. He got paid, he's got his money. If it was $5M/yr for 3, sure. 7 or 8M/yr, no way, Hasta la vista. Reminder that both Spezza and Giordano took league minimum at the same age and played excellent for the team.

I like all of these players BTW. But in the end, it is a business.

 

[Antropovsky]

You intentionally skipped a bit to further your agenda.Yes, Cooper said this :
When you are that size, you have to be unique at something,” Cooper said. “You have to be better than everyone else at something. If you really watch that game, the plays he made in tight, the plays he made in traffic… He is not the fastest kid on the ice. He doesn’t have the hardest shot on the ice. He doesn’t do a whole bunch of things that a lot of guys on both teams do better than him. But it is really hard to sit here and say, ‘Was there a better player?’

“He puts himself at that elite level with the way he thinks the game and processes the game at such a high level and at such a high rate of speed. That is why he is the player he is. I have watched him close up. I have coached against him in a playoff series. I have watched what he can do. There are not too many guys who can excel as a power play player, a penalty killer, a 5-on-5 guy, and at 3-on-3. Mitch can do it all.”

Also, Cooper changed the lines after the loss to the USA.

Cooper admits that Marner is a tiny/weak, average skilled player with exception to being able to make little plays on tight. Essentially the very same thing I've been saying for year about Marner.

Cooper is 100% right about Marners lack of high end skill and lack of size... but he is off about Marners ability to make little plays in tight. Marner hangs around the perimeter because that's where he can buy time to create offense (because he cant make plays in tight!).

Mcdavid very quickly identified this with Marner after practice 1 where he said "(Marner) plays high in the zone".

 

[Antropovsky]

Cooper was asked about the game opening fights vs USA. "Nothing tops that... you know why, because it wasn't planned, that wasn't two coaches throwing guys over and sayng this is happening..none of that happened, this was as organic as it gets..that was probably 10 years of no international hockey exhaled in a minute and a half.

Meanwhile the reporter later tells him the Tkatchuk brothers planned the fights before the game in a group chat lol.

 

[ToneDog]

Mo took a bit of a team discount so I'd keep him and hope he can turn it around (and who's the replacement?). I'll be very disappointed if the rumours are true about JT's salary ask. He got paid, he's got his money. If it was $5M/yr for 3, sure. 7 or 8M/yr, no way, Hasta la vista. Reminder that both Spezza and Giordano took league minimum at the same age and played excellent for the team.

I like all of these players BTW. But in the end, it is a business.

But in the end, it is a results-oriented business. He did not help get us over the hump.

Problem is, as many have mentioned, this team is paper thin at C without Tavares so Leafs will overpay him like they panicked and overpaid Kampf. I'd go after Bennett before deciding what to do with Tavares. Sign Bennett and Tavares has little leverage to get $7m here. Doubt Leafs would do that to JT.

 

[Antropovsky]

Mo took a bit of a team discount so I'd keep him and hope he can turn it around (and who's the replacement?). I'll be very disappointed if the rumours are true about JT's salary ask. He got paid, he's got his money. If it was $5M/yr for 3, sure. 7 or 8M/yr, no way, Hasta la vista. Reminder that both Spezza and Giordano took league minimum at the same age and played excellent for the team.

I like all of these players BTW. But in the end, it is a business.

Tampa walked away from Stamkos, who signed in Nashville for 8 millionx4.

But... have to admit, its impressive that Tavares seemingly would be willing to take ANOTHER paycut to stay in Toronto. He's willing to not only take 3 years (compared to Stamkos 4) and also take 1 million less per year than Stamkos...despite the cap projections skyrocketing? And of course the taxes being more in Canada vs other american cities like Nashville.

Say what you want but Tavares has been one of the least greedy players the league has ever seen. Breath of fresh air compared to the rest of this teams core.

 

[Stephen]

Cooper admits that Marner is a tiny/weak, average skilled player with exception to being able to make little plays on tight. Essentially the very same thing I've been saying for year about Marner.

Cooper is 100% right about Marners lack of high end skill and lack of size... but he is off about Marners ability to make little plays in tight. Marner hangs around the perimeter because that's where he can buy time to create offense (because he cant make plays in tight!).

Mcdavid very quickly identified this with Marner after practice 1 where he said "(Marner) plays high in the zone".

You’re definitely mischaracterizing what Cooper said about Marner. He was very careful to heap praise, positivity, support and protect Marner in previous press conferences, but actions do speak louder than words with the rapid demotion in Game 3.

So I think we have a coach that understands Marner needs to be pumped up with praise to get him in the right mindset, but also quickly sidelined him seeing he wasn’t getting the right contribution in the Finland game (and extension of the USA game).

The conclusion here is still not good. Marner needs to be pumped up, protected, coddled and even then the on ice results have not met expectations.

 

[thewave]

You’re definitely mischaracterizing what Cooper said about Marner. He was very careful to heap praise, positivity, support and protect Marner in previous press conferences, but actions do speak louder than words with the rapid demotion in Game 3.

So I think we have a coach that understands Marner needs to be pumped up with praise to get him in the right mindset, but also quickly sidelined him seeing he wasn’t getting the right contribution in the Finland game (and extension of the USA game).

The conclusion here is still not good. Marner needs to be pumped up, protected, coddled and even then the on ice results have not met expectations.

So what GM in their right mind gives that player 13m?!

 

[Stephen]

But in the end, it is a results-oriented business. He did not help get us over the hump.

Problem is, as many have mentioned, this team is paper thin at C without Tavares so Leafs will overpay him like they panicked and overpaid Kampf. I'd go after Bennett before deciding what to do with Tavares. Sign Bennett and Tavares has little leverage to get $7m here. Doubt Leafs would do that to JT.

I don’t really love the idea of having JT back because things are so stale. But if you’re going down that route it should be for longer term and lower AAV. Sell him on a contract that seamlessly transitions into retirement seasons. Instead of 3 years at $7 million, make it 5 year deal at $4.5 million, anchor him to Toronto with money coming in for the next half decade taking him to 40 (contractually). If he retires or goes on LTIR oh well.

 

[Mess]

I’d also try out a thought experiment and throw out a Mitch Marner vs Jake Guentzel comparison. Needless to say Guentzel doesn’t have the high end reputation of a Marner or has flirted with 100 points as Marner does. But he has cup winning pedigree and looks really comfortable on the big stage. So when factor these things all in, there’s definitely a $ figure to consider when you pay for the name brand prestige of one player vs big game characteristics of another.

Playmaker Marner has Zero assists through 3 games and is a -2 +/- (which places him among the worst in the tournament).

His 3v3 OT goal the only impact in the tournament to date.

Elite Super star #1C like McDavid, MacKinnon and Crosby don't seem to be suffering statistically with/without Marner on their wing.

 

[thewave]

I don’t really love the idea of having JT back because things are so stale. But if you’re going down that route it should be for longer term and lower AAV. Sell him on a contract that seamlessly transitions into retirement seasons. Instead of 3 years at $7 million, make it 5 year deal at $4.5 million, anchor him to Toronto with money coming in for the next half decade taking him to 40 (contractually). If he retires or goes on LTIR oh well.

Sometimes the best deals you make in life are the ones you don't make.

 

[leafs in five]

I don't know how any true fan of the Leafs could advocate for keeping this guy. Seems a lot of people on here have become fans of the player instead of the team. They prefer to cheer for the name on the back of the jersey rather than the crest on the front

imo it's the opposite, only people who share my opinion of Mitch Marner actually care about the Leafs, and the crest on the front of the shirt, etc

 

[Antropovsky]

You’re definitely mischaracterizing what Cooper said about Marner. He was very careful to heap praise, positivity, support and protect Marner in previous press conferences, but actions do speak louder than words with the rapid demotion in Game 3.

So I think we have a coach that understands Marner needs to be pumped up with praise to get him in the right mindset, but also quickly sidelined him seeing he wasn’t getting the right contribution in the Finland game (and extension of the USA game).

The conclusion here is still not good. Marner needs to be pumped up, protected, coddled and even then the on ice results have not met expectations.

I agree with your conclusion.

What did I mischaracterize though, here is the video of Coopers quote:



He says Marner has one skill that sets him apart and it's that he processes the game at a high rate of speed and he makes plays in traffic and in tight.

Us leaf fans know that those in tight plays also come at a price of alot of turnovers and lost possession, additionally... he's a perimeter player, which means he's actually not playing in traffic. Mcdavid called it out immediately after the first practice when he made the observation that "he plays high in the zone".

Cooper also admitted he talked to the core players before game 3....id be surprised if they didn't talk preferred linemates.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Everyone's ice time was down but Marner still played among the least.

We're not complaining about his ice time. We're comparing it to the rest of the team. Everyone's is down and Marner still played among the bottom 3 forwards on the team. Despite him being a PKer when not everyone else is.

These are just the facts.

So when he was among the top in ice time he was one of Canada's best players?

 

[Divine]

So when he was among the top in ice time he was one of Canada's best players?

He was expected to be, yes.

That's why he started with the second highest ice time. He's the highest scoring winger on Team Canada. They gave him 2 games with near top line minutes and then said yeah this guy isn't that good.

It's a short tournament. Marner was penciled into the top line and then lost his spot due to performance.

 

[thewave]

He was expected to be, yes.

That's why he started with the second highest ice time. He's the highest scoring winger on Team Canada. They gave him 2 games with near top line minutes and then said yeah this guy isn't that good.

It's a short tournament. Marner was penciled into the top line and then lost his spot due to performance.

Right. Real simple and obvious to see.

 

[BraveCanadian]

He was expected to be, yes.

That's why he started with the second highest ice time. He's the highest scoring winger on Team Canada. They gave him 2 games with near top line minutes and then said yeah this guy isn't that good.

It's a short tournament. Marner was penciled into the top line and then lost his spot due to performance.

I mean that is one way to look at it. The other way is that they shuffled the deck when things weren't working, and as someone who can actually play both ways, Marner has the flexibility to move up and down the lineup in a Team Canada situation. In the past other star and even superstar players have done the same. Reinhart and others got moved around too, but a guy like Reinhart doesn't fit in with the 3rd line as well, I don't see everyone losing their minds about that.

This is literally just negative people seeing what they want to see. Nothing will ever be good enough at this point. The fact that he was penciled in with McDavid tells you how actual hockey people see Marner. I don't think the fit was good - especially with how the whole team was trying to overpass - because there is only so much puck to go around for guys like McDavid and Marner. Playing McJesus with shooters makes a lot more sense even if they give up some defensively.

 

[Divine]

I mean that is one way to look at it. The other way is that they shuffled the deck when things weren't working, and as someone who can actually play both ways, Marner has the flexibility to move up and down the lineup in a Team Canada situation. In the past other star and even superstar players have done the same. Reinhart and others got moved around too, but a guy like Reinhart doesn't fit in with the 3rd line as well, I don't see everyone losing their minds about that.

This is literally just negative people seeing what they want to see. Nothing will ever be good enough at this point. The fact that he was penciled in with McDavid tells you how actual hockey people see Marner. I don't think the fit was good - especially with how the whole team was trying to overpass - because there is only so much puck to go around for guys like McDavid and Marner. Playing McJesus with shooters makes a lot more sense even if they give up some defensively.

I get shuffled around, but being the second lowest TOI player on the team isn't shuffled around, it's a demotion. The only guy who played less than him was scratched earlier.

No one is doubting Marner is a good player. The point is he's not one of the best players on Canada, and shouldn't be paid like he is.

If Marner was making 8M, everyone would be happy with him. The problem is he's the byproduct of a team and can't consistently produce himself. He needs other players to score and set up - which is why he shouldn't be paid like a player who can carry a team himself, which Marner can't.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I get shuffled around, but being the second lowest TOI player on the team isn't shuffled around, it's a demotion. The only guy who played less than him was scratched earlier.

No one is doubting Marner is a good player. The point is he's not one of the best players on Canada, and shouldn't be paid like he is.

If Marner was making 8M, everyone would be happy with him. The problem is he's the byproduct of a team and can't consistently produce himself. He needs other players to score and set up - which is why he shouldn't be paid like a player who can carry a team himself, which Marner can't.

Its one game dude. They were riding the McDavid and MacK lines quite a bit harder than the others.

Marner hasn't been great but the idea that he went from OT winner playing a ton to a demotion where he is the worst forward on the team because of one game that the entire team played badly is... a stretch.

 

[Divine]

Its one game dude. They were riding the McDavid and MacK lines quite a bit harder than the others.

Why?

 

[leafs in five]

You’re definitely mischaracterizing what Cooper said about Marner. He was very careful to heap praise, positivity, support and protect Marner in previous press conferences, but actions do speak louder than words with the rapid demotion in Game 3.

So I think we have a coach that understands Marner needs to be pumped up with praise to get him in the right mindset, but also quickly sidelined him seeing he wasn’t getting the right contribution in the Finland game (and extension of the USA game).

The conclusion here is still not good. Marner needs to be pumped up, protected, coddled and even then the on ice results have not met expectations.

Do any of the other players on whom Cooper is heaping praise share the same requirement? Needing to be pumped up I mean?

 

[BraveCanadian]

Do any of the other players on whom Cooper is heaping praise share the same requirement? Needing to be pumped up I mean?

How many of his other players are from Toronto? There is a reason he has to answer these questions about Marner and it isn't to pump him up. It is because people actually care about hockey in Toronto and there is actually media coverage.

 

[leafs in five]

I agree with your conclusion.

What did I mischaracterize though, here is the video of Coopers quote:



He says Marner has one skill that sets him apart and it's that he processes the game at a high rate of speed and he makes plays in traffic and in tight.

Us leaf fans know that those in tight plays also come at a price of alot of turnovers and lost possession, additionally... he's a perimeter player, which means he's actually not playing in traffic. Mcdavid called it out immediately after the first practice when he made the observation that "he plays high in the zone".

Cooper also admitted he talked to the core players before game 3....id be surprised if they didn't talk preferred linemates.

I assume that when Cooper said MM is unique in his ability to make good plays in traffic he meant to say that MM is incapable and afraid of making good plays in traffic and can only make good plays when he has time and space, it's an honest mistake, even guys who are in love with the sound of their own voice sometimes misspeak like this