Mitch Marner Vs Brady Tkachuk for the future

[Strangle]

There’s certainly some aspect of schadenfreude over Leafs’ lack of success on this site that tends to bias opinions, but with Marner it’s as much of a bias over smaller playmaking wingers as anything imo. Gaudreau had a lot of the same bias as well. Guys like Kane avoided that because he had clutch success in the playoffs, but with Marner he’ll need to have a great playoff run before he gets the respect of his regular season performances.

Ya I don’t buy it

I think the leafs could win back to back Stanley cups and nothing here would change

There would be some narrative that comes up to discredit the team

 

[FerrisRox]

Pretty sure they mean games won, which is sort of a meaningless technicality when you lose in seven games (almost) every year.

That is absolutely hilarious if that is what they mean!

Imagine bragging about the wins you got in a series you lost! If that's what he means, that is one of the funniest flexes I've ever seen here!

I hope you're right!

 

[HockeyVirus]

Speaking of immature, remember when a teammate had to tell Marner and Matthews to “stop crying” on the bench during a playoff game this spring?

Hear say. None of us know what that was about. But Matthews and Marner have both been Selke finalists, they play a mature game. Also kind of funny they get mad about losing on the bench get mad fun of, sit there emotionless and get made fun of

For all you know Tkachuk is the worst playoff performer in the entire league

Not to mention had Tkachuk made the playoffs since his rookie season like Toronto, his stats would likely be impacted as well due to them being on their ELC and not scoring as much

 

[Korpse]

Marner has the playoff experience, Tkachuk has none.

The point of playoff experience is that you've been there and no what to expect and can but aside the distractions/nerves and perform. Experience isn't always advantageous, especially when it's be nothing but negative.

It's not like Marner's playoff experience has been proven to be an asset. If anything it has be come a burden and every April it is a bigger distraction than the last. That said, if starting from scratch I probably take Marner, just for different reasons than "playoff experience".

 

[dgibb10]

The point of playoff experience is that you've been there and no what to expect and can but aside the distractions/nerves and perform. Experience isn't always advantageous, especially when it's be nothing but negative.

It's not like Marner's playoff experience has been proven to be an asset. If anything it has be come a burden and every April it is a bigger distraction than the last. That said, if starting from scratch I probably take Marner, just for different reasons than "playoff experience".

Marner in the playoffs drops from a 100 point player to an 80 point player (and he has outscored his opponents 20-11 on the ice in the playoffs over the last 3 years).

Brady Tkachuk IS an 80 point player.

Marner's apparently drops so significantly in the playoffs, and yet his production there is STILL equal to Tkachuk's.

Hear say. None of us know what that was about. But Matthews and Marner have both been Selke finalists, they play a mature game. Also kind of funny they get mad about losing on the bench get mad fun of, sit there emotionless and get made fun of



Not to mention had Tkachuk made the playoffs since his rookie season like Toronto, his stats would likely be impacted as well due to them being on their ELC and not scoring as much

Marner playoff PPG last 3 years: 1.00
Tkachuk PPG last 3 years: 0.925

 

[bert]

There’s certainly some aspect of schadenfreude over Leafs’ lack of success on this site that tends to bias opinions, but with Marner it’s as much of a bias over smaller playmaking wingers as anything imo. Gaudreau had a lot of the same bias as well. Guys like Kane avoided that because he had clutch success in the playoffs, but with Marner he’ll need to have a great playoff run before he gets the respect of his regular season performances.

Simple as this he has to do it. He hasn't. He has played in 8 playoff series has withered in every series the longer they go on.

Marner in the playoffs drops from a 100 point player to an 80 point player (and he has outscored his opponents 20-11 on the ice in the playoffs over the last 3 years).

Brady Tkachuk IS an 80 point player.

Marner's apparently drops so significantly in the playoffs, and yet his production there is STILL equal to Tkachuk's.


Marner playoff PPG last 3 years: 1.00
Tkachuk PPG last 3 years: 0.925

Whats Marners PPG in games 5 through 7.

 

[John Mandalorian]

No one cares if you aren’t a leafs fan. What should be pointed out is the people who are wrong because they aren’t leaf fans.

I can say that Sidney Crosby and McDavid are great players and better than Stutzle and I would rather have them on my team than Stutzle.

The issue is that Hfboards can’t do that for anyone wearing a maple leaf.

Marner has lost more polls on this site than I can count. And since we can’t make ‘revenge polls’ you’ll never see a redo of “who would you rather svetchnikov or Marner?”

Matthews,Marner,Woll vs Stutzle,Tkachuk,Ullmark

Who has the better trio Toronto or Ottawa?and why?

forums.hfboards.com

This contradicts everything you’re saying. Look how lopsided it is for the Leafs. If you dig into the comments, Matthews being an elite player even with some underwhelming post seasons is what’s moving the needle towards the Leafs. Maybe it’s more about Marner than the Leafs?

 

[dgibb10]

Simple as this he has to do it. He hasn't. He has played in 8 playoff series has withered in every series the longer they go on.


Whats Marners PPG in games 5 through 7.

A win in game 1 is worth exactly the same as a win in game 6.

If you're suggesting he provides nothing in the later games, that simply means he provides EVEN MORE in the early games.

With Marner on the ice even strength toronto has outscored their opponents 20-11

The problem is that toronto has been outscored 29-37 with marner off the ice at even strength

 

[bert]

A win in game 1 is worth exactly the same as a win in game 6.

If you're suggesting he provides nothing in the later games, that simply means he provides EVEN MORE in the early games.

With Marner on the ice even strength toronto has outscored their opponents 20-11

The problem is that toronto has been outscored 29-37 with marner off the ice at even strength

Convenient to 'forget' those stats. The longer the series go on the tighter they get. The harder it is the worse he plays.. Players that step up in elimination games are the ones that win cups. If Marner could play well when it matters most they would have more than one playoff series win in 8 tries.

 

[dgibb10]

Convenient to 'forget' those stats. The longer the series go on the tighter they get. The harder it is the worse he plays.. Players that step up in elimination games are the ones that win cups. If Marner could play well when it matters most they would have more than one playoff series win in 8 tries.

With Marner on the ice the leafs are doubling their opponents in goals.

Just want to clarify, when Marner's team loses in the playoffs despite him being at a PPG, and outscoring his opponents 20-11 when he's on the ice, it's because he wasn't good enough?

But when Tkachuk fails to make the playoffs scoring less than a PPG, it's not his fault?

 

[HockeyVirus]

Marner in the playoffs drops from a 100 point player to an 80 point player (and he has outscored his opponents 20-11 on the ice in the playoffs over the last 3 years).

Brady Tkachuk IS an 80 point player.

Marner's apparently drops so significantly in the playoffs, and yet his production there is STILL equal to Tkachuk's.


Marner playoff PPG last 3 years: 1.00
Tkachuk PPG last 3 years: 0.925

Tkachuk has never sniffed a playoff game

 

[norrisnick]

Ya I don’t buy it

I think the leafs could win back to back Stanley cups and nothing here would change

There would be some narrative that comes up to discredit the team

That's because the dislike of the Leafs has far less to do with the team or players and exponentially more to do with their fans and media coverage.

Don't want people to "hate" the Leafs? Act better.

 

[bert]

With Marner on the ice the leafs are doubling their opponents in goals.

Just want to clarify, when Marner's team loses in the playoffs despite him being at a PPG, and outscoring his opponents 20-11 when he's on the ice, it's because he wasn't good enough?

But when Tkachuk fails to make the playoffs scoring less than a PPG, it's not his fault?

Marner disappears in the end of series and thats when they lose them. He plays at his normal pace at the start then goes away when it gets tight. If they score a goal here or there in games 5, 6 or 7 they win some of those series. Thats the drop off, you can acknowledge that reality if you want I dont really care.

An 82 game sample size of a team that was mismanaged by an insane owner and the worst GM in hockey is not the same thing as an offensive catalyst going cold at the end of a series. I dont think any sane person would blame a team for not making the playoffs on one player. But in a series of one goal games when a 100 point player goes cold thats a different story.

Does Crosby suck because the penguins missed the playoffs last year? Clearly not. Is Matthews not a top 5 player in the league because he has one playoff series win in 8 tries no. Atleast you know he is playing late in a series unlike 16.

Tkachuk has never sniffed a playoff game

Do you think the leafs would miss the playoffs if Brady Tkachuk played on their team? Uh oh! Got ya.

 

[HockeyVirus]

Do you think the leafs would miss the playoffs if Brady Tkachuk played on their team? Uh oh! Got ya.

IDK. Would probably be a hell of a better developed player though. Senators have botched theri development of kids. None of them can defend

 

[bert]

IDK. Would probably be a hell of a better developed player though. Senators have botched theri development of kids. None of them can defend

You can do better than this. Not your best work at all. Answer the question.

 

[Jumptheshark]

here is the thing..two different type players. Tlachuk is a shit disturbers who backs it up with some wicked play. Neither Matthews nor Marner have the physical style of either brother and I think they are two different catagories

 

[NyQuil]

Ya I don’t buy it

I think the leafs could win back to back Stanley cups and nothing here would change

There would be some narrative that comes up to discredit the team

Much like Tkachuk in the playoffs, it’s impossible to know because the Leafs haven’t come close in decades.

You are assuming that this would happen but you have no evidence because it hasn’t happened or come close to happening.

The Leafs haven’t sniffed a Cup final or even a Conference final with their current core of players.

I think the general narrative on HF is that the Leafs have fine regular season players but their playoff performance is nothing short of massive disappointment.

It shouldn’t be all that surprising given how long it has persisted with little progress.

 

[HockeyVirus]

You can do better than this. Not your best work at all. Answer the question.

Keefe wouldn't have allowed him to ignore half the rink, same with Stutzle. I did answer the question. Say what you want about playoff failure, Keefe was successful in developing the forwards to play a full game.

 

[bert]

Keefe wouldn't have allowed him to ignore half the rink, same with Stutzle. I did answer the question. Say what you want about playoff failure, Keefe was successful in developing the forwards to play a full game.

No debate about Keefe as a coach he is great, he coached against me in jr. His teams were all very prepared, he was demanding and fair many of my friends played under him. He is a way better coach than DJ Smith.

You still havent answered the question.

But maybe you are suggesting that Stutzle or Tkachuk wouldnt be able to play in the leafs top 12 is that what you are saying?

Would the leafs miss the playoffs if they had tkachuk?

 

[Xspyrit]

If Hfboards was correct, and Stutzle > Matthews and Brady > Marner …. Why don’t the results bare that out?

Toronto’s duo is far and away crushing Ottawa’s duo in both individual and team accomplishments.

It never was that... why people's brain can't understand simple things anymore?

and lol at "team accomplishments". Think about how Pat Maroon single handedly crush both Leafs players

The hilarious thing is, if you combine both these polls (and we really should, just to show how embarassing hfboards posters are) hfboards would rather have Stutzle and Brady over Matthews and marner

Unbelievably stupid and any GM making that trade would be rightly out of the league within hours

I mean, don't project your own limitations on others

Matthews + Marner vs Stutzle + Tkachuk WITHOUT contracts : votes should be 100% Leafs

Matthews + Marner vs Stutzle + Tkachuk WITH contracts : votes should be 100% Sens

BOTH these polls were TAKING CONTRACTS IN CONSIDERATION. It's not that hard to understand lol. Funny thing is in the real world, Toronto would make that trade in a heart beat

Stutzle 22 y/o at 8.35 AAV for 7 years + Tkachuk 24 y/o at 8.2 AAV for 4 years

vs

Matthews 27 y/o at 13.25 AAV for 4 years + Marner 27 y/o at 10.9 AAV for 1 year (then UFA)

Oh and by the way, Stutzle 20 + 21 y/o seasons : 160 pts, Matthews at that age : 136 pts (his 21 + 22 y/o seasons : 153 pts)

 

[Strangle]

That's because the dislike of the Leafs has far less to do with the team or players and exponentially more to do with their fans and media coverage.

Don't want people to "hate" the Leafs? Act better.

I read this with those clapping hands after every word.

And in response: no, I don’t think I will lol

Much like Tkachuk in the playoffs, it’s impossible to know because the Leafs haven’t come close in decades.

You are assuming that this would happen but you have no evidence because it hasn’t happened or come close to happening.

The Leafs haven’t sniffed a Cup final or even a Conference final with their current core of players.

I think the general narrative on HF is that the Leafs have fine regular season players but their playoff performance is nothing short of massive disappointment.

It shouldn’t be all that surprising given how long it has persisted with little progress.

Cool, how has tkachuk done any of those things, though?

If that’s your measuring stick …. How do you reconcile not holding this senstors team to the same standard? These players who you think are better than the leafs players but constantly perform even worse?

Doesn’t make any sense

 

[Strangle]

It never was that... why people's brain can't understand simple things anymore?

and lol at "team accomplishments". Think about how Pat Maroon single handedly crush them both



I mean, don't project your own limitations on others

Matthews + Marner vs Stutzle + Tkachuk WITHOUT contracts : votes should be 100% Leafs

Matthews + Marner vs Stutzle + Tkachuk WITH contracts : votes should be 100% Sens

BOTH these polls were TAKING CONTRACTS IN CONSIDERATION. It's not that hard to understand lol. Funny thing is in the real world, Toronto would make that trade in a heart beat

Stutzle 22 y/o at 8.35 AAV for 7 years + Tkachuk 24 y/o at 8.2 AAV for 4 years

vs

Matthews 27 y/o at 13.25 AAV for 4 years + Marner 27 y/o at 10.9 AAV for 1 year (then UFA)

Oh and by the way, Stutzle 20 + 21 y/o seasons : 160 pts, Matthews at that age : 136 pts (his 21 + 22 y/o seasons : 153 pts)

Here is a simple thing for you to understand.

The answer of ‘cheaper is automatically better’ just sounds like you don’t want the best players available. Why would anyone choose a worse player? Because better players make more money?

Huh?

This is why Stutzle +5m in cap space became such a meme. Contracts can be relevant but when you’re talking about an actual superstar in the prime of their career vs a not even all star level player the difference isn’t $5m in cap space

 

[Xspyrit]

More success than ottawa between 2017-2024 is coming up in the rafters soon

I loled, but actually change it to 2018 because Ottawa made the 3rd round in 2017, something the Leafs haven't done since 2002

The scoring looks different because Stutzle played more games. Matthews was injured on his ELC and then covid shortened 2 seasons of his prime. His scoring pace has always been consistent.

Matthews is not a 1 or 2 season thing, his scoring rate has been consistently the best in the league since he entered it. And once again, conveniently ignoring the massive, MASSIVE gap in defense between the two (nvm the size)

Fair point but injuries are part of the game, missing games is not the player's fault but it lowers his end result contribution

Stutzle 20-21 y/o : 160 pts in 153 games, 1.05 PPG
Matthews 20-21 y/o : 136 pts in 130 games, 1.05 PPG

Matthews is a great player, 9th in PPG since he entered the league and 1st in goals per game. You don't remember the controversial poll I made about Matthews being a generational goal scorer?

And I'm not ignoring anything. Stutzle defensive game is hard to bring up at this point because :

- he has played on a rebuilding team coached by DJ Smith... People quickly ignore this but new management/ownership only came a year ago (not even). It was a big mess in Ottawa for 6 years before that.

- the VAST majority of forwards are initially not great defensively, which also was the case for Crosby and McDavid, for example.

By the way, he has already shown stretches of playing great defensive hockey. It's about finding the consistency, which should be helped by playing with better goaltending, coaching, defensive players in a better system? That part is even more "way too early" to analyze than offense.

I'll leave you this below, which was the first 2 months of the 2022-23 season, to show Stutzle's potential :

https://x.com/i/web/status/1600852709782872064

 

[HockeyVirus]

I loled, but actually change it to 2018 because Ottawa made the 3rd round in 2017, something the Leafs haven't done since 2002



Fair point but injuries are part of the game, missing games is not the player's fault but it lowers his end result contribution

Stutzle 20-21 y/o : 160 pts in 153 games, 1.05 PPG
Matthews 20-21 y/o : 136 pts in 130 games, 1.05 PPG

Matthews is a great player, 9th in PPG since he entered the league and 1st in goals per game. You don't remember the controversial poll I made about Matthews being a generational goal scorer?

And I'm not ignoring anything. Stutzle defensive game is hard to bring up at this point because :

- he has played on a rebuilding team coached by DJ Smith... People quickly ignore this but new management/ownership only came a year ago (not even). It was a big mess in Ottawa for 6 years before that.

- the VAST majority of forwards are initially not great defensively, which also was the case for Crosby and McDavid, for example.

By the way, he has already shown stretches of playing great defensive hockey. It's about finding the consistency, which should be helped by playing with better goaltending, coaching, defensive players in a better system? That part is even more "way too early" to analyze than offense.

I'll leave you this below, which was the first 2 months of the 2022-23 season, to show Stutzle's potential :

https://x.com/i/web/status/1600852709782872064

Can you name the last time a player not great defensively developed into a Selke finalist? How often does that happen?

But the point I am making there is Matthews brings a lot of value in ways a lot of people choose to ignore when measuring players like this

 

[Xspyrit]

That is absolutely hilarious if that is what they mean!

Imagine bragging about the wins you got in a series you lost! If that's what he means, that is one of the funniest flexes I've ever seen here!

I hope you're right!

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