Mitch Marner Vs Brady Tkachuk for the future

[Arthur Morgan]

Yet he's crushing marner in the poll. Maybe you need to try and be objective.


So does Brady in Ottawa. There aren't many teams that wouldn't want Tkachuk he's unique. Small skill forwards who wither in the playoffs are a dime a dozen. Marner is the best of this category but its the easiest asset to aquire.

Neither player are easy to acquire. Marner might not show up in the playoffs but still getting 90-100 point players isnt easy,
Brady also has yet to play a playoff game. he very well could not show up either but I get the feeling he would be a decent playoff guy to have

 

[Fatass]

MM is a Selke level, 100 point guy who is a key part on a consistent playoff team. BT is a good player, but he needs to go a long way to reach MM’s level.

 

[MCR74]

Neither player are easy to acquire. Marner might not show up in the playoffs but still getting 90-100 point players isnt easy,
Brady also has yet to play a playoff game. he very well could not show up either but I get the feeling he would be a decent playoff guy to have

We may never know.

 

[BlueBaron]

There are a few problems with this topic. The main one being their current contracts. Marner unsigned is a bit scary from an asset management point of you but if we ignore contracts and just talk about the players it really does depend on your team. To me if I'm trying to make the playoffs I want Marner's offense. If I'm trying to get to the next level in the playoffs I'm considering the power forward heavily. I'm reminded of the Huberdeau trade.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

6 years in the league. I wonder if anyone will ever know how he performs in the playoffs.

We will, even if it's not with the Senators.

 

[Xspyrit]

6 years in the league. I wonder if anyone will ever know how he performs in the playoffs.

Yeah, he started the year following Ottawa losing in the THIRD ROUND (something Toronto has never seen lmao) in double OT against the eventual Stanley Cup Champions in 2017. So he started playing during their first rebuilding year as he was first pick to kick off the rebuild (the rebuild was decided early 2018 and he was drafted in June). It's kinda normal if he didn't make the playoffs yet. However, if Ottawa wasn't stuck for years with probably the worst trifecta in NHL history (owner/GM/coach), he most likely would have already

What is the objective argument for Tkachuk?

I don't read all the posts in a thread but I have already brought many, like the ones below for example

MM is a Selke level, 100 point guy who is a key part on a consistent playoff team. BT is a good player, but he needs to go a long way to reach MM’s level.

What if I told you that in the last 2 years, Marner has only 9 more ES points than Brady Tkachuk but 15 less goals? Marner plays 39 more seconds per game than Tkachuk at ES and also plays with the current best goal scorer in the league (more than 63% of his shifts last season)

In 2 seasons? While making 33% more money.

 

[banks]

I'm a Leafs fan, and a huge Marner fan. But I'd still take Tkachuk here. He's too much of a unicorn to pass up.

But it's definately close. Even with a terrible playoff performance recently, Marner is still a premiere talent. There's just nothing worse for the general preception of a player than being overpaid (by any amount) in Toronto. Nothing.

 

[dgibb10]

On the one hand,

Mitch is a better offensive player.

on the other hand, Mitch is a better defensive player.

Yeah, he started the year following Ottawa losing in the THIRD ROUND (something Toronto has never seen lmao) in double OT against the eventual Stanley Cup Champions in 2017. So he started playing during their first rebuilding year as he was first pick to kick off the rebuild (the rebuild was decided early 2018 and he was drafted in June). It's kinda normal if he didn't make the playoffs yet. However, if Ottawa wasn't stuck for years with probably the worst trifecta in NHL history (owner/GM/coach), he most likely would have already



I don't read all the posts in a thread but I have already brought many, like the ones below for example



What if I told you that in the last 2 years, Marner has only 9 more ES points than Brady Tkachuk but 15 less goals? Marner plays 39 more seconds per game than Tkachuk at ES and also plays with the current best goal scorer in the league (more than 63% of his shifts last season)

In 2 seasons? While making 33% more money.

Mitch Marner is one of the best PP weapons in hockey. Tkachuk is a passenger at best on the PP.

 

[NyQuil]

They bring very different skills to the table and are paid very differently.

I think it may depend on team needs.

 

[Fatass]

Yeah, he started the year following Ottawa losing in the THIRD ROUND (something Toronto has never seen lmao) in double OT against the eventual Stanley Cup Champions in 2017. So he started playing during their first rebuilding year as he was first pick to kick off the rebuild (the rebuild was decided early 2018 and he was drafted in June). It's kinda normal if he didn't make the playoffs yet. However, if Ottawa wasn't stuck for years with probably the worst trifecta in NHL history (owner/GM/coach), he most likely would have already



I don't read all the posts in a thread but I have already brought many, like the ones below for example



What if I told you that in the last 2 years, Marner has only 9 more ES points than Brady Tkachuk but 15 less goals? Marner plays 39 more seconds per game than Tkachuk at ES and also plays with the current best goal scorer in the league (more than 63% of his shifts last season)

In 2 seasons? While making 33% more money.

What if I told you MM is a career plus 110 and BT is a minus 50?

 

[Xspyrit]

Mitch Marner is one of the best PP weapons in hockey. Tkachuk is a passenger at best on the PP.

Uh... no idea how you come up with "Tkachuk is a passenger at best on the PP" unless you don't understand roles in hockey and vs games situations?

Anyway, I can't repeat everything in every post so do a little bit of research before quoting please. I already said in this thread :

"Marner is a great PPQB playmaker racking assists on the PP like a madman, but give me Tkachuk at ES."

What if I told you MM is a career plus 110 and BT is a minus 50?

Plus/minus? lol are you stuck in 1995?

 

[Golden_Jet]

What if I told you MM is a career plus 110 and BT is a minus 50?

I’d tell you, you don’t understand how a rebuild works in relation to plus minus.

 

[Joe n]

Yeah, he started the year following Ottawa losing in the THIRD ROUND (something Toronto has never seen lmao) in double OT against the eventual Stanley Cup Champions in 2017. So he started playing during their first rebuilding year as he was first pick to kick off the rebuild (the rebuild was decided early 2018 and he was drafted in June). It's kinda normal if he didn't make the playoffs yet. However, if Ottawa wasn't stuck for years with probably the worst trifecta in NHL history (owner/GM/coach), he most likely would have already



I don't read all the posts in a thread but I have already brought many, like the ones below for example



What if I told you that in the last 2 years, Marner has only 9 more ES points than Brady Tkachuk but 15 less goals? Marner plays 39 more seconds per game than Tkachuk at ES and also plays with the current best goal scorer in the league (more than 63% of his shifts last season)

In 2 seasons? While making 33% more money.

That is one hell of a long rebuild. Wonder if the rebuild will finally end this year.

 

[dgibb10]

Uh... no idea how you come up with "Tkachuk is a passenger at best on the PP" unless you don't understand roles in hockey and vs games situations?

Anyway, I can't repeat everything in every post so do a little bit of research before quoting please. I already said in this thread :

"Marner is a great PPQB playmaker racking assists on the PP like a madman, but give me Tkachuk at ES."



Plus/minus? lol are you stuck in 1995?

Tkachuk is not a guy who drives or creates meaningful value to having a better power play.

And it's okay to be that. Very few guys in the league are legit effective PP engines. Marner is one of them. And it's very valuable

Tkachuk over the last 3 years has 140 more PP minutes than marner (860 to 720), and 22 less points (66 vs 88).

 

[Felidae]

Yeah, he started the year following Ottawa losing in the THIRD ROUND (something Toronto has never seen lmao) in double OT against the eventual Stanley Cup Champions in 2017. So he started playing during their first rebuilding year as he was first pick to kick off the rebuild (the rebuild was decided early 2018 and he was drafted in June). It's kinda normal if he didn't make the playoffs yet. However, if Ottawa wasn't stuck for years with probably the worst trifecta in NHL history (owner/GM/coach), he most likely would have already



I don't read all the posts in a thread but I have already brought many, like the ones below for example



What if I told you that in the last 2 years, Marner has only 9 more ES points than Brady Tkachuk but 15 less goals? Marner plays 39 more seconds per game than Tkachuk at ES and also plays with the current best goal scorer in the league (more than 63% of his shifts last season)

In 2 seasons? While making 33% more money.

Just to give the full picture..

You omitted the fact that Marner missed 13 games this year and still outproduced Tkachuk by 11 points. Tkachuk had 52 EV points, Marner had 57.

The previous year when both played full seasons, Marner had 58 EV points to Tkachuk's 54.

Their EV production is roughly the same, let's say a small edge to Tkachuk when you consider goalscoring. But PP production still matters and Marner is decisively better than Tkachuk in that regard

 

[Sting]

That is one hell of a long rebuild. Wonder if the rebuild will finally end this year.

I always find comments like this funny. Typically, rebuilds don't start the year after a team nearly makes the Cup final. At least, the composition of the team is not at all prepared for that. So it's probably more reasonable to say the first rebuild season was 2018/2019 when it was apparent that they were going to struggle for a bit. Because of a trade they had made, they missed out on a 2019 first rounder. So the first true "rebuild" draft they had where they were set up to make a good amount of choices was 2020. Then you consider it's unreasonable to place playoff expectations on 18 year olds (or even 20 year olds), and we're now about 4 years into the Sens rebuild.

I think people also seem to associate the comments of Pierre Dorion/Eugene Melnyk with the Sens fanbase. It's strange. There's been a lot of promise with this club but when you look at most rebuilds in this league, the Sens aren't some huge outlier.

For reference, the most recent cup finalist, the Edmonton Oilers, had not made the playoffs in 10 seasons until a generational talent/future HOFer Mcdavid dragged them into it.

 

[Byron Bitz]

I dunno depends on Marner’s next contract but all we know for sure is that Marner is the much better player.

We may never know.

Brady’s dad was a terrible playoff performer despite playing a style that people often say translates well to the playoffs.

 

[Golden_Jet]

That is one hell of a long rebuild. Wonder if the rebuild will finally end this year.

luckily not as long as the leafs took, and yet they still only one playoff win in 2 decades.

 

[Xspyrit]

That is one hell of a long rebuild. Wonder if the rebuild will finally end this year.

Yes and no. Look at Detroit, Buffalo, New jersey... Heck, look at Toronto before Matthews, Marner and Nylander. Missed the playoffs 7 straight years and 10 years out of 11!

I said in 2020-21 that the Sens wouldn't go anywhere with Pierre Dorion at the helm. To me, he was the worst GM in NHL history (yes worse than Milbury) and he kept DJ Smith too long, a really nice guy but who shouldn't be a head coach. They would probably still be in no man's land if Melnyk was still the owner. The team sale allowed to finally move on to a new era and new management so they now have a chance to move forward.

7 years is not always "one hell of a long rebuild" but in Ottawa's case, they could have built something really special and much faster as they had an incredible wealth for trade when they decided to rebuild. Karlsson was 27 y/o, Duchene was 28 y/o, Mark Stone was 26 y/o, Pageau was 26 y/o, Hoffman was 28 y/o, etc. Plus, they already had Chabot, Batherson, Formenton, Nick Paul, etc in their prospect pool

Dorion squandered/wasted a lot of time and rebuild potential. I have criticized him/them for years.

Tkachuk is not a guy who drives or creates meaningful value to having a better power play.

And it's okay to be that. Very few guys in the league are legit effective PP engines. Marner is one of them. And it's very valuable

Tkachuk over the last 3 years has 140 more PP minutes than marner (860 to 720), and 22 less points (66 vs 88).

Damn, that's all? I thought the gap would have been bigger. Marner is the QB playmaker, Tkachuk is just a front net presence so of course Marner should get more points as he feeds 4 different guys including the best goal scorer in the NHL...

Just to give the full picture..

You omitted the fact that Marner missed 13 games this year and still outproduced Tkachuk by 11 points. Tkachuk had 52 EV points, Marner had 57.

The previous year when both played full seasons, Marner had 58 EV points to Tkachuk's 54.

Their EV production is roughly the same, let's say a small edge to Tkachuk when you consider goalscoring. But PP production still matters and Marner is decisively better than Tkachuk in that regard

I don't see what your post is adding to the full picture... If you read all my posts in this thread, all of this has been painted already.

The point is when you consider all other factors (also already brought up in post #45 : age, contract status, cost, type of player, physical frame, goal scoring ability, intimidation factor, etc.), the small difference in production is not enough to offset it. Unless you're really deprived of playmaking talent for the PP. But I'm satisfied in that regard with Stutzle, Batherson, Giroux, Chabot, Sanderson, etc

 

[dgibb10]

Yes and no. Look at Detroit, Buffalo, New jersey... Heck, look at Toronto before Matthews, Marner and Nylander. Missed the playoffs 7 straight years and 10 years out of 11!

I said in 2020-21 that the Sens wouldn't go anywhere with Pierre Dorion at the helm. To me, he was the worst GM in NHL history (yes worse than Milbury) and he kept DJ Smith too long, a really nice guy but who shouldn't be a head coach. They would probably still be in no man's land if Melnyk was still the owner. The team sale allowed to finally move on to a new era and new management so they now have a chance to move forward.

7 years is not always "one hell of a long rebuild" but in Ottawa's case, they could have built something really special and much faster as they had an incredible wealth for trade when they decided to rebuild. Karlsson was 27 y/o, Duchene was 28 y/o, Mark Stone was 26 y/o, Pageau was 26 y/o, Hoffman was 28 y/o, etc. Plus, they already had Chabot, Batherson, Formenton, Nick Paul, etc in their prospect pool

Dorion squandered/wasted a lot of time and rebuild potential. I have criticized him/them for years.



Damn, that's all? I thought the gap would have been bigger. Marner is the QB playmaker, Tkachuk is just a front net presence so of course Marner should get more points as he feeds 4 different guys including the best goal scorer in the NHL...



I don't see what your post is adding to the full picture... If you read all my posts in this thread, all of this has been painted already.

The point is when you consider all other factors (also already brought up in post #45 : age, contract status, cost, type of player, physical frame, goal scoring ability, intimidation factor, etc.), the small difference in production is not enough to offset it. Unless you're really deprived of playmaking talent for the PP. But I'm satisfied in that regard with Stutzle, Batherson, Giroux, Chabot, Sanderson, etc

How much more do you want marner to produce on the PP? He's top 10 in the league in that regard?

His PP points/60 is 60% more than Tkachuks.

 

[Xspyrit]

How much more do you want marner to produce on the PP? He's top 10 in the league in that regard?

His PP points/60 is 60% more than Tkachuks.

22 points in 3 seasons no? 7 more PP points per season on average... which also counts a season where Tkachuk was at his previous level.

It doesn't mean that I think Marner has been doing poorly, I didn't know Tkachuk had this many PP points (as I didn't check, only looked at ES)

So yeah, I repeat, the difference is really not as significant as I initially thought

 

[dgibb10]

22 points in 3 seasons no? 7 more PP points per season on average... which also counts a season where Tkachuk was at his previous level.

It doesn't mean that I think Marner has been doing poorly, I didn't know Tkachuk had this many PP points (as I didn't check, only looked at ES)

So yeah, I repeat, the difference is really not as significant as I initially thought

Marner has 7.33 points/60, tkachuk 4.59. Massive gap.

Tkachuk is about as close to marner as he is to the worst PP guys in the NHL

You also seemed to have ignored the fact that Tkachuk has an extra 140 PP minutes than Marner and still could not come close to his point total.

 

[Xspyrit]

Marner has 7.33 points/60, tkachuk 4.59. Massive gap.

Tkachuk is about as close to marner as he is to the worst PP guys in the NHL

You also seemed to have ignored the fact that Tkachuk has an extra 140 PP minutes than Marner and still could not come close to his point total.

I'm looking at raw points obviously. I mean, it's ok to dig but raw points are the end result. That's what I am looking here.

 

[dgibb10]

I'm looking at raw points obviously. I mean, it's ok to dig but raw points are the end result. That's what I am looking here.

a 33% gap in raw points is very significant gap as well.

For example, the gap in points over the last 3 years between mitch marner and Nathan Mackinnon is just 20%.

The gap between Mitch Marner and Connor McDavid in points/game is about 35%. Would you say those gaps aren't all that significant?

 

[Xspyrit]

a 33% gap in raw points is very significant gap as well.

For example, the gap in points over the last 3 years between mitch marner and Nathan Mackinnon is just 20%.

The gap between Mitch Marner and Connor McDavid in points/game is about 35%. Would you say those gaps aren't all that significant?

Not sure why you keep going with this. Yes the % can "look" significant but in terms of raw points, it's ONLY 7 points per season and a season is 82 games... Not the huge deal I thought it would have been before looking

Very simple. So I don't need to answer to your next post if you bring the same point.